"Roissy in DC" author: James C. Weidmann
Jesus-Jimmy: ”Roissy in DC”
Now, let me just say this. I have never felt the need to dedicate a post to Roissy because we all know (in his many pathetic, repeated blog posts dedicated to me) that is exactly what he wants. He wants to be the “dark villain” and the “dangerous man”. Sadly, most women can see upon reading a few words of his that he is not a dangerous nor scary man. He’s a sad, lonely, 40′s-something guy…..stuck in a big city…..where he just can’t keep up with the competition (please refer to what he looks like and what he WEARS as a man his age to see what I am referring to).
*I am interested to see if Roissy “takes it like a man” or shrieks like a schoolgirl and demand it be removed. ( I say this because Roissy has felt free to find and post photos of me, my family, my personal info, and anything else he can find to “call me out”). I wonder if the “dishee” can also take it.*
Desperation drips from his false online persona like a broken rusty rain gutter that everyone gave up on fixing long ago……
If you are NOT familiar with blogger, “Roissy in DC“……I’d suggest you click and read a bit of his blog (you’re welcome, Roissy).
This is a man who claims to be a Master of Seduction, a Jesus-Like Savior of (wimpy) men, a Colossus of Gaming, and of course an all around “Ladies Man”.
He extols the virtues of dodging child support payments, physically intimidating your wives & girlfriends to “keep them in line”, and even encourages men to “raw-dog” it and have as much unprotected sex as you possibly can (gross….can you say STD’s and MORE babies in foster care???).
Unfortunately, the men he is preying upon don’t realize that he is NOT out to help them, NOT out “offer advice”, but out ONLY to reassure himself in his aging, middle-aged, desperation…..that ANYONE still wants to hear what he has to say.
You all know the expression “Well….if I’m going down….I’m taking everyone with me.” THAT is exactly what Roissy’s “Game” advice to men is. It’s like the crack under a recovering crack-heads nose…….the “miracle diet pill” to the lifetime Anorexic……and the walking, talking ENABLER of the further decline of modern men in today’s society. He encourages men to go back to the “id”…..the caveman inside themselves…….and care about nothing but eating, sleeping, and fucking.
Every step that man has taken forward in the world, Roissy helps them to take a step back. For every man who DOES have discipline and character (and self-control)……Roissy helps to enable 10 more NOT to be.
The chauvinism, arrogance, and cock-obsessed points aside……Roissy is a living breathing example of the stereotype that many men have been trying to not be a part of: drooling, horny, pussy-obsessed, “cocks-on-wheels” with not a thought in their head except finding a warm-hole. (Pardon the nasty expression, but that is the main thought process of men like these).
Anyway…..I received an email directly from a mysterious (and generous) Miss X. This is evidently a woman who feels much the same way that I do and is tired of witnessing this sort of degradation in our society as whole.
*NOTE: I will remove tidbits from the email that could/would give away the identity of “Miss X” and how she may be “familiar” with Roissy. I will also mark my own comments with *asterisks* and Italics so there is no confusion.*
Dear Lady Raine,
I’ve been a longtime admirer of your contributions to the debate at Roissy’s. However, his recent smugness has exceeded even my tolerance, and I thought I might offer a little birthday present to you to offset the bile you’ve received from him:
I believe I know Roissy’s real name.
I know that you like investigation…. take a look at James (Jim) C. Wiedmann, employed by FINRA (a private finance regulatory body in D.C.). Also interviewed in the Mail and Globe article “When Players Turn Into Boyfriends.” See if this rings any bells:
The pickup artist’s message for wannabe players and boyfriends alike is essentially “don’t be a wuss,” says J. Wiedmann, a Washington-based white-collar-crime investigator. Mr. Wiedmann, who did not want his full name used, launched his “reality-based seduction” blog, “Roissy in DC: Where Pretty Lies Perish,” last year. Reviled and beloved, the blog is full of devilish relationship strategies.
“I’ve written about the importance of instilling dread in your girlfriend by turning off your phone twice a week, or calling her from a busy place where women are laughing in the background … despite her protestations to the contrary, a little bit of uncertainty goes a long way to keeping her aroused for you,” Mr. Wiedmann said in an interview.
Aside from the usual fawning and vitriolic responses to his posts, Mr. Wiedmann has been seeing more pleas for relationship advice in his inbox lately. “Most of my male readers ask for advice on how to win that ‘one girl’ over. They’re struggling to get out of the discount bin of the sexual market,” he says.(http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/article714983.ece)
Roissy published a blog entry entitled “I Am In the Globe and Mail,” but has recently deleted it.
(http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/12/19/i-am-in-the-globe-and-mail/).He is 41. His birth day and month are the same as listed in this profile, but he lies about the year. This is what he looks like.
(http://www.puaconnect.com/roissy/)If you’d like any further confirmation, try a Google search for “Roissy’s real name.”
He loves to brag about his exploits, but abuses women while hiding under a cloak of secrecy. And now he is making it a personal crusade to attack all the women on his blog who are still willing to stick around. Please be careful — some of the men at his site are very angry and seem a few minutes away from snapping.
From one woman to another,
Miss X
*I also received this in my comments section from another one of my readers*
You should send Roissy a nice thank you card:
Jim Wiedmann
1*** Lanier Pl NW #9C
Washington, DC 20009
*OH, JIM…….LOL…..what does one even say about this? Other than the fact that a 41 year old “finance-nerd” who dresses like he’s a 21 year old emo-prep college-boy. The fact that he constantly berates women and evidently LIES about his age even to his own readership is really rather funny. I recall so many articles talking about how “young hot women just LOVE old, pasty gross men” and now I know why he’s so desperate to get other men to believe this kind of thing.
You would think that JUST the fact that he’s a middle-aged, pasty-white finance-nerd posing as a playboy would be reason enough for people to disregard his opinions and advice (like most people already do)…..but there are and always will be looking for their “own personal jesus” to tell them it’s okay to hate women, hate life, hate responsibility, hate morals, hate “hard work”, and hate ANYONE AND EVERYONE that you can possibly think of to blame for being what they have become.
This falls into my “Why People Are Assholes” post. Roissy may not be a big-name who is going to influence anyone who actually matters……but he’s certainly known enough to be influencing men who otherwise may have turned to look at THEMSELVES (yes I know introspection is a crazy concept for guys like him) for their failures/shortcomings in life.
It’s a dangerous world we live in when there is a “miracle pill”, a quick fix, and a (insert random group) to blame for everything a person DOESN’T do to be responsible for their own lives.
Yes, Gentlemen....THIS is the man you are asking for advice on picking up ladies.....(Note: The....errr..."artwork" done to this pic wasn't done by me. This is the way the photo was when I saved it, lol)
*Yes, Ladies I know…..it’s hard to control yourself in the presence of such an Adonis, but please try to remain calm for the sake of our female dignity.*
Update: Much like I expected….some of Roissy’s shrieking henchman came here telling me I have “stepped over the line”. For a bit on the “history”….this is the first time I have published a “post about Roissy” on my blog. Roissy has published at least 6 or more posts specifically about me. Containing personal photos of me AND MY son….which is “unsavory” in the first place. But he then continued over the past 6 months to try to slander me, give out personal info (like mentioning the town I live in as often as he can) and worst of all posts porno videos and says that it is ME in the video (and isn’t.) He has publicly posted lies on his blog accusing me of prostitution AND pornography and attached my photos to the (complete lies) he is telling.
I never really bothered posting about it here on my blog, because anyone who knows me in real life knows those things aren’t true and are ridiculous…..but that doesn’t change the fact that Roissy likes to go and play in people’s lives and slander innocent people for his own amusement and to up his blog stats without remorse and without even having a good motive to do it. Just because it gets him attention.
Well I think it’s high time someone finally fixed his little red wagon, and I’m certainly the woman for the job 
*Update: November 25*
Here is another address that is identical except for a different Apartment number…..ooops guess it WAS a residential address….silly old me with my tiny female brain…..
Age:40-44
1*** Lanier Pl NW, Apt 8B
Washington, DC 20009-2190
Oh, and here is where Roissy’s work offices of “Financial Industry Regulatory Authority” (FINRA) are located in the Washington D. C. area. Please feel free to swing into Mr. Wiedmann’s offices and thank him yourselves
“FINRA” — Washington Offices Location:
1735 K St., NW
Washington DC, 20006
View Map
&
Washington DC
1801 K St., NW
Suites 300 & 800
Washington, DC 20006
View Map
UPDATE January 16, 2010-- I was forced to remove some of the info about good old Jimmy because he cried to the Word Press Moderators and also because he went back to “The Globe” and begged them to slice out some of the details (he himself provided them with) so that it wouldn’t be “public domain” anymore.
LMAO! Needless to say that we are all aware of Google Cache and of course anyone looking for the original info can simple cache: ”Exposed! Roissy in Dc” and it will pop right up. Same goes for “Roissy in DC Update” of course.
Anyone who needs the info I removed here can find it in it’s entirety that way and can also just ask me and I’ll send you the link. Honestly I’m shocked it took THIS long for him to shriek about it. Obviously my job on THAT is done because every human on the planet has been saving and caching his info for months and months now.
That’s really all that matters. Everyone knows where to find him and also knows where to find the many Child Porn posts he’s been feverishly deleting off his own site. Looks like the evil Roissy was easily crushed by just one fell swoop….much like all true Cowards usually are.
Anyhow! Big brother cannot be blamed for all this and don’t worry…..3 or 4 months is plenty long that his personal info is now practically scratched into stone, lol….and don’t worry….I still have the juicier stuff for anyone who wants it
lol
dang, first…gl LR
I just love how Ms X… *I think I know who she is having done a bit of Roissy research myself over the past year* talks about men are going to snap, and makes unsubstantiated allegations of abuse towards Roissy..assuming that’s who Mr. Weidmann is. I never did find out for sure..the address doesn’t match when you mapquest to the part of a DC that a friend I have who knows him personally says he lives..but who knows?
Anyway, Ms X sounds like a loon. Far as it goes, I don’t see any substantial criticism here, all I see is you having a bunch of fun.
My prediction? This won’t make a lick of difference in the future.
Clarence–
That’s the reason I didn’t edit out some of the actual “address”. It’s clearly a mailing address or business mailing address and NOT a residential (I have enough class that I wouldn’t post something that I thought to be his actual HOME address or phone number.)
I have never bothered to check any shit on him, but yes this post is meant purely in a fun way. The reasons behind MY criticism of Roissy and what he (pretends) to stand for are obvious to anyone who has ever read his blog or heard his opinions of women. I didn’t really feel the need to “tear him up” and point out every hypocritical, stupid, untrue, misogynistic, and just plain disgusting thing he has ever said. He represents those things himself and I have no cause to want to rant about it here on my own blog.
However, the mischievous and evil side of me couldn’t help but laugh when I was literally handed this personal information about a guy who (tries) to be as mysterious and “enigmatic” as he possibly can.
He seriously must have A LOT of enemies.
It’s sort of like a kitty swatting around a ball of yarn (for me).
“This is a man who claims to be a Master of Seduction, a Jesus-Like Savior of (wimpy) men, a Colossus of Gaming, and of course an all around “Ladies Man”.”
Ya’ know, in all fairness the above might actually be true, but the question then becomes is it still, in fact, true AND does it still, in fact, count if the only “girls” he’s actually dating and getting to pay him any attention, need to be checked for psi levels… LOL…
Having said that, if’n you gotta carry around an air pressure gauge in your pocket in order to get the full, uhm, benefits of your so-called girlfriend, dude, I hate to burst your delusional little bubble but you ARE NOT the Girl Whisperer… pffft…
Granted, let’s say that the guy is a despicable MotherF****r, I don’t think that you are a better model for women lady rain, hardly….
Cyrano–
I knew I’d get some of these. That’s why I said to read his blog. This is the first time I have “responded” to his posts about me since last June when he posted one called “Is Lady Raine In This Porno”? (Even though it clearly was not me in the porno).
Then proceeded to steal pictures of me AND my son and post them publicly on his blog and attempt to “speculate” on me, my life, my mothering, etc. There have been…..errr….about 5 posts he has made dedicated to insulting me, my family, and even trying to accuse me of prostitution and being in porno (both untrue of course).
LOL He’s a dick. I could do MUCH worse than this and ONLY decided to post THIS one because the information was dropped in my lap and just too good to keep to myself.
OH! And I’d never want to be a “model” for women anyway. I’m farrrrrrr too different from most ladies to attempt to be a voice for them.
so you got the ‘scoop’? haven’t been able to find this elsewhere.
Nayagan–
Oddly, for all the “investigating” I (could) do……I have never checked out his personal info past his photo. I got railed on a lot for my “Revenge Tips” post simply because everyone assumed the worst and accused me of “getting revenge for a living” and doing “horrible things with people’s personal info”.
Those things aren’t true at all. I do, indeed, do a lot of “personal investigating” of people…..but it’s for the same reasons that a licensed P.I. would do it. As a favor to someone, to help a desperate victim, to find the loophole in the law that was unfair to start with……. etc. My point being, the revenge tactics were intended to HELP people who have exhausted all your basic “civil/legal” attempts at stopping someone who is out to get you.
That being said, I never attempted to “get a scoop” on Roissy because he isn’t someone who has personally harmed me in any way. Although I have the TOOLS to harm him, and the KNOWLEDGE to harm him……doesn’t mean that I’m lacking in morals enough to do that to a total stranger (like him).
However, it was such a special event that two (random readers) gave me info regarding such a douchebag……well….just couldn’t resist. (The person who sent me the email more than alluded to knowing Roissy personally and even named HOW she knows him. However, she asked that I keep that information private for obvious reasons and I plan to keep that promise.)
That was the first email I saw this morning and was like…..”omg whaaaaaaat????” And then to top it off, a (different) random commentor tosses his full name and address up like it was nothing!!!!
The Gods clearly decided to make it an easy (and fun) day for me. How could I ignore their gifts
One thing we now know for sure is that A LOT of people reaaaaaaaaally hate him (and I don’t come close to THEIR venom, because I don’t hate him….I just have physical repulsion and disdain for him in general.)
Raine,
your pictures were public domain. you have a link to your myspace page on your blog. you show yourself flipping off the camera and have pictures of your kid all over the place. this is not the same thing as you exposing roissy.
he has never put out pictures of himself. he obviously prefers to maintain anonymity. he hasn’t sought to publish your address or anything that might be regarded as private; for you to do so is crossing the line.
you visit roissy’s site on your own accord; if you’re unhappy with his comments towards you, don’t visit. if he had posted your real name, address, or kid’s name i’d be on your side here, but he hasn’t. he has made some digs at you which have probably crossed the line, but its his blog.
you reached a new low – probably one of the many to add to your collection.
It’s always been assumed he’s in the mid to late 30′s. But if you click on the link that “Miss X” provided it SHOWS his profile for Venusian Love or whatever the website is called. It has his birth year CLEARLY marked as 4 years younger (along with where it SAYS “37″ under the age listing). All the while, he way lying.
I found that to be especially funny simply because of how much he pushes “older” men to be more aggressive on the dating scene. He doesn’t want to be the only ass-clown out there still hangin at the bars, throwing back a cheap lager and leering at girls much too young for him. I just call it like I see it: Obvious Mid-Life Crisis.
no one was coerced in the publishing of Roissy’s name. Anonymity isn’t a constitutionally-protected right with regards to what is possible. Anybody who’s ever had access to credit data (usually in data-entry temp capacity) knows this to be true (if not warm and fuzzy.)
In Roissy’s parlance, he was ‘slutting it up’ with his unique brand of brazen sexual politics and was duly ‘pumped and dumped’ by this lady.
Now, of course, Roissy is free to actually investigate the identity of Lady Raine and publish the results on his blog (unless an aggrieved third-party does it for him). If he works at FINRA, he certainly does have job/prestige/income at risk unless he knows a good labor law expert. Those are real consequences–and thus if this post precipitates a firing there’s a moral burden to be borne. I’m not sure how likely any negative consequences would be after this post and the information in it are disseminated further.
Nayagan–
And that is what makes it so awesome. I didn’t pull some “journalistic bullshit” and dig into his life or anything. Anonymous readers here SENT it to me……so fuck it, I’ll post it (and as I said I DEFINITELY protected more privacy than you can imagine on the part of Roissy, Miss X, and also the commenter who posted the address). I don’t sleaze around in people’s info just for kicks, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to be THAT kind!!!
Yes the beauty of it is that no matter WHAT Roissy looks for me under, he’ll not find any cars, tags, good address (current), or any phone numbers (that are less than about 10 years old) on me. I have no loans out, no bankruptcies, no fingerprints, no police photos…..nada.
The worst he could do is post some old bullshit about me that doesn’t matter anyway. I more cautious than people give me credit for. Anything that could be found about me, isn’t anything that could harm me now so I’m feeling MORE than game to take that pussy on
if he wants to be all boo-hoo about it.
(If he does that, THEN I will stop being “kind” and just post whatever nasty info I can find just to ruin his day).
Chuck–
It’s amazing that you would defend Roissy considering that last year in MAY he started stealing and posting pictures of me and my son without my knowledge for what reason? Posting comments on his blog that are in disagreement with him.
That was the FIRST time. Then he tried to post a blog implying that I was in a porno video entitled “Is Lady Raine In This Porno” which was clearly done JUST to be a disgusting liar.
He then randomly dedicated THREE MORE POSTS containing MY pictures, my name, and whatever else he wanted to.
I let it go….let’s see……about 10 times and never made even ONE post about him. I never would have, either except that I was handed information and simply used it. I didn’t even run a basic check on him. I posted only what anonymous readers here have sent me. I have no idea if it is true or accurate, that is why I posted it in it’s original form.
Roissy has been MORE than asking for it for a LOOOOOONG time and I was nice about it. I never HAD to be nice, though you see. I could have been an asshole since last year when he started posting lies and slander and insinuating that I do porno and prostitution (none of which are true).
He’s lucky that I left out the information that I DID, because had I actually POSTED what was sent to me by the readers, it would be much much worse than this.
He wants to go around dicking with people, then I guess he should be able to take it, eh?
If you thought their would be remorse on my part, you must not have been paying attention all this time.
Sincerely
LR
you’re essentially admitting that your action is “wrong” by saying that even if he wanted to, roissy couldn’t find dirt on you.
as a hooker, would you have sold out any of your clients if someone gave you that man’s address, name, and family status?
no, you didn’t coerce, but neither did roissy; so that argument is a non sequitor. you went above and beyond by publishing other personal information. it involves a vague threat; what if someone posted school schedules or daycare schedules and addresses of your son? since that seems to be the only thing you value (whereas roissy values his job and anonymity) that might hit home for you.
Chuck–
No, what I am saying is that I didn’t do any “digging” at all!!! I posted what information was given to me and omitted ALOT of personal info that would have been otherwise damaging (and don’t have to). That clearly is not his residential address so that is not at all similar to giving out a person’s school or daycare info. Did I put his telephone number? His parent’s names? His email address? His residential info? No.
So it’s not the same at all and if I wanted to post that info I’d have done so already. Posting pictures of my son WITH his name unprovoked was just ONE thing he pulled….not to mention the many other blog posts where he has included not only my personal info, but “info” that HE ADDED that wasn’t true. He even often mentions my “living in Allentown” which I never said (and it’s not accurate anyhow) but that’s not the point.
You trying to make it like I put a hit out on him, emailed him a threat, and extorted him for money. Get a fucking life. I posted info that was sent to me. At least I didn’t go skulking around to GET IT like Roissy did to me.
(for future reference, although myspace considers their stuff “public”…..wordpress is allowed to have it’s own rules regarding photos. And they do. You are allowed to post photos from “social networking” sites unless the person complains. Then you will be warned to remove it or have it removed for you. I could have had Roissy take down my photos from day one, but I don’t cry like a hypocrite like he does.)
He shouldn’t dish it out if he can’t take it. Boo-hoo, so sad for him :p
Whoa, Roissy is totally hot for a 40 year old. He could pass for a late 20-something guy. It’s like LR in reverse!
Also, the irony of you bagging out anyone’s (perfectly normal) nose is something else LR. Nice try though.
*hmmm and yet here you are bagging out MY looks without showing your own. You have little chance of being as attractive as me.*
“Natalie”–
Yes your comment ALMOST sounded believable except no woman would look at that face and say “wooah he’s hot” except for maybe his momma, lol.
Second, I didn’t say a word about his nose so I don’t know what you’re talking about.
I’m assuming you are too stupid to be able to read the words immediately beneath the pic that says “I am not the one who added the words and drawings” to the pic of Roissy. It was already like that when I received it.
It’s a shame that you are a dude trying to pass as a chick. I know it’s a “boys stick together thing” where you do dorky shit like this for eachother. I think it’s sweet, though.
*and unless “natalie” happens to be a 40′s something woman then I don’t know how you could look at THAT and call it hot…..lmao….ahhahah hahahah*
raine,
i never said you went digging for the shit. but you still had a choice to publish information that wasn’t public domain. roissy didn’t put it out there whereas you’re the one who put pictures on myspace. you made your information fair game.
you and roissy were playing tit for tat on legitimate terms. you used the information that each of you had made public *of your own accord* against each other. he one-upped you in that department having remained relatively anonymous.
being the undiscerning harpie that you are, *you didn’t even put privacy restrictions on them* which is a move relegated to sluts and fat chicks. you crossed a line that roissy hadn’t breached. that’s fine, roissy should have seen that coming; its still a low blow on your part.
Errr, I did say hot *for a 40 year old*. If that is him, he’s aged very well. He could stand to lose a few pounds from that pot belly, but he looks great neck up, and dresses well.
And yes, I’m a 22 year old woman.
honestly, he is just very average in appearance. looks way younger than he is, which is a plus for me since i have no interest in men that are significantly older than i am at this point.
if a guy like that approached me in real life, i wouldn’t be completely repulsed, but i wouldn’t get the “gina tingles” instantly either. also, a lot of pua techniques he uses just wouldn’t work on me.
Blech. I can count on one hand how many guys I’ve dated who are my own age or older. I can’t even be attracted to a guy that’s like 33 or 34 (and I’m 29 now). I don’t like guys who are (weirdly) young, either though. I seem to only be attracted to guys that are around the 22-29 range. And it’s not something I do intentionally because it seems that those are the men who are attracted to me, too. It’s sorta like how I always seem to end up with a Military man of some sort whether I was aware of it or not.
Everyone has their own weird “things” I suppose.
Chuck–
I don’t understand how you can sit there and not see the obvious lie you are telling. How did Roissy and I go “tit for tat” back and forth about each other? Can you please find me a post (other than this one, obviously) that I have EVER dedicated to Roissy? Shown a picture of him? Tore him up? Nope. I’ve never once posted about him until now……
Which is SIX MONTHS after he published his first (of many) posts dedicated to me. He posted in June, then later in the summer, and now about 2 or 3 more times recently. He continuously posted my personal information including my son’s name, his possible age, his photos, and anything else he could “speculate” on about me and then PUBLISH it for the public intentionally. He has played “lets fuck with Lady Raine” for 6 months straight and I never retaliated, never “reported” him (for using my photos, even though I CAN), never published a post about HIM in retaliation. Nothing.
Roissy made it his mission to post my personal information over and over and over. He attempted to publicly tell people where I live, publicly accused me of prostitution (slander), pornography (slander), and even posted videos of porno and SAID that it was me.
Now tell me again, Chuck at which point did I do the “tit for tat” you speak of??? Where are the many nasty posts I dedicated to Roissy on my blog, here? There aren’t any.
I took the high road for 6 months (which is far more than he deserved) and allowed him to keep posting and posting and posting about me. To keep publicly slandering me and saying I live a life of crime and prostitution. Since those things aren’t true AND are damaging to ANY mother’s name……it’s incredible that you can sit there in judgement of ME for posting a simple email that was sent to me.
I could have sat here and made shit up all day like he did and put his pictures next to it as “fact” too……but I didn’t. I could say he’s a drug dealer and a rapist and slap his picture up next to it, right? THAT would be okay because that’s exactly what he did to me for months and months and months.
Roissy should seriously consider himself LUCKY that this is ALL I posted about him. I don’t believe in tit for tat anyway. If I believed in tit for tat I’d have done what I just said and just made up blatant lies (relating to crimes) about him (like he did) and post pictures of him next to it calling it fact. So, basically what you are saying is that all of THOSE things are acceptable but posting TRUE tidbits about his life is “over the line”??????
For the record, I never claimed “tit for tat”. In my eyes, I have about 10 different blog posts that Roissy published (about me) to retaliate for……so I am just getting started, darlin.
Anna–
That’s because his “techniques” are just a male version of a woman “playing hard to get”. Women never needed seminars, weird celebrities, nerd meetings, classes, lectures, books, and blogs to figure THAT one out……why do men seem to struggle with the simplest of concepts?
C’mon. Roissy is much loved throughout the blogosphere – so much so there is a section of it called the Roissysphere – mostly, however, for the sheer entertainment of it all. Now you came to his blog and sought to attract attention and became the butt of a few jokes. Attempting to harm someone who has taken steps to protect his identity (what you have done) is quite different from mining your myspace page (what he did) for fodder in the feud between the two of you. I think you should lighten up – just my opinion.
Jesus–
He’s a dick, so fuck him. He posted pictures of my son and along with me JUST because I disagreed (in his comments) with his opinion just like everyone else on earth does. He publicly posted a porno video and claimed that it was me. He then made public accusations of me being involved also in prostitution. He has made several attempts to present plain old slander as fact. He opened himself up for retaliation. Not once, not twice, but 6 or so times since I first commented there. I think this one post is actually really kind compared to what I could have posted but omitted for his privacy.
Furthermore, would it have been better if I had posted a photo of video of a man that look just like Roissy and said “Is this Rapist, Roissy”?? Nope because I didn’t cross that line. He did.
This is a really mild post compared to what I’d do if I was angry and not just disgusted with him. I don’t even hate him. I just think he needs to be taught a lesson (and judging by the anonymous emails, I’m not the only one). The person who emailed me provided exactly HOW she knows him personally and hey….if she wants the world to know that he’s a nasty man in real life, too….then I am more than willing to present those things to the public. Fortunately, anyone else’s opinion on whether or not it’s acceptable doesn’t concern me. He crossed the “acceptable” line long ago so now I shall bat him around like a kitten with a ball of string. Maybe he’ll think twice next time, poor Jimmy.
Basically, I wouldn’t bother to “search” his name and info, look for residential addresses, post a phone number, etc. to post something evil (or else I’d have done so long ago when he published those posts)….but there’s no way I’m going to “be nice” and keep info a secret that was handed to me in an anonymous email.
It’s over the line because Roissy obviously made attempts to stay anonymous. He doesn’t have photos of himself up on his site, he doesn’t use his real name.
You make it sound like he went snooping through your family photo albums to procure that photo of your son. YOU had it for all the world to see posted on your Myspace, tucked in between a tonne of skanky self portraits. Roissy didn’t have to “dig” around for his age or any of your personal information. You gave it freely, and shamelessly. You have no shame in “dancing” (without your clothes on), but you take such umbrage to half-serious implications that you were involved in prostitution?!! Does it hurt your sense of modesty?
Also, Roissy never published your name. His commenters did some googling to find your name (probably not hard given how much personal info you thoughtlessly have lying around the internet) – and Roissy REMOVED your full name from their posts, to protect your privacy.
There’s less info about you on Roissy’s than you happily and proudly give up here or on your myspace. That’s the difference.
I have no problem with what you did here, I’ve seen all this info on the net months ago when I started posting on roissy.
He’s been aggressive with you and you’ve returned the favor in a relatively mild manner.
You have yet to post any gay porn videos with a male who might resemble him and asked the question “Is roissy in this gay porn video?”
But I’m not sure your claim that he is a Jew is correct. I’m guessing Wiedmann is just a German name like Schwartz which many people associate with Jews but which is most often German Protestant.
He has height at about 6’3″ which you like although he’s 15 years too old for you.
And you are not attractive enough for him but if you two had met in person without this internet hatefest I think you two would probably not rub each other the wrong way. You would just agree to disagree. Maybe even agree politically on many issues.
The anonymity of the internet allows for the expression of bitterness which in most people is contained due to fear and public embarrassment.
Willard,
you’re such a pussy. be quiet.
Raine,
you think that the fake porno video is anywhere near as bad as posting someone’s formerly private information? i don’t know anyone who thought that video was you. i thought that post of his was dumb, but i never once thought twice about it being you.
as Mr. M said in the comments on my blog post about you and your desire to get attention from *everyone* roissy said that he would take down your pictures if you privatized your myspace profile.
the thing is, you set yourself up for an incongruent debate where he had the upper hand. you put out too much public info compared to him; to one-up him you published information he would have preferred to keep private. so you crossed a line that he didn’t cross. yes, you *could* have posted a gay sex video or done any number of things to make him look bad. they might have been humorous, but just like his video of you, they wouldn’t have caused him any harm.
for the record, i don’t want to speak for roissy. for all i know he doesn’t give a shit what you posted about him. regardless of his thoughts on the matter, i think its a shit move on your part. so take that fwiw.
roissy’s tampon Says:
Willard,
you’re such a pussy. be quiet.
You are the one white knighting on here for another DUDE.
If anybody on here is being a pussy it’s YOU.
Or at least the tampon.
for the record, i don’t want to speak for roissy.
Good, then shut the fuck up. You ugly red haired wigger.
Natalie–
Listen, Bitch. It’s clear that you have no idea what you are talking about because I have never “been in a porno”, been a prostitute, or anything else Roissy posted about me….so can you explain HOW he only used things that I supposedly have on my myspace page? That’s because he didn’t. He took pics of me and then attached porno videos of strange women, stories of crimes, and other random nonsense that he CLEARLY did not “get from my myspace page” as you claim.
And the only women who have ever seen a comparison between letting a man watch you dance and prostitution are the same women who shriek “Oh my god!!! I would NEVER do that! It’s so shameful!”. And they are always the fat, ugly, unattractive, low-confidence girls who just HAPPEN to be the type that no man would ever WANT to see naked.
Yes, I can see how my family vacation pics where I’m wearing a bathing suit top with pants is a clear connection to being a prostitute….of yes…and in porno, too right?
If you are an attractive woman, you should feel confident in showing it off. There isn’t a single good reason NOT to.
You are clearly not “upset” about my Roissy post. You’re upset that I don’t have the same emotional issues, body issues, man issues, and self-esteem issues that you clearly have. You came here to admonish me when it’s clear in your comments that you have NO idea the history of the situation or even what you are talking about.
I’d rather you just ADMIT that you “don’t like me” and wanted to say something nasty in hopes that it will somehow make you less of the dull, average, uninteresting woman that you are instead of wasting my time with nonsense.
I don’t believe Mr. Wiedmann is Jewish. I am, however.
Apparently antisemitism is–like scrapple–clinging to life in PA.
I would like you to remove the references to “Jew” in your post, since it is entirely uncalled for. God only knows why Roissy is such a creature, but it isn’t because of his ethnic background.
Yes, Willard and I think you know well enough that this is really mild for me!
I think a “Is Roissy the Rapist in this Line-up” since that would be literally “tit for tat”.
And yes this is the first post I dedicated to trash talking on him. I owe him….what like 6 more?
I don’t care if he’s a Jew or not……I just liked the sound of Jimmy-the-Jew. Yes, you’re right my family is German Protestant (specifically Lutheran).
Please, I have seen the pics of women he supposedly “slept” with and they are certainly not more attractive than I am. Whether it sounds arrogant or not doesn’t matter, because some of the “uglies” he’s slept with are shocking!
*and actually for the record, I don’t hate Roissy at all. I have disdain for him as well as irritation that he continues to take up a spot on this earth, but otherwise…..it just has to be done, is all
Chuck–
Actually you are wrong. The only “public” info I had posted was some pics of me and my family. That isn’t “crazy” and wild. Everything else Roissy posted was straight up lies with my photo attached. I don’t have to “bargain” with Roissy about taking down my photos. I could have had them taken down back in May….June….and still can right now. WordPress has their own policies regarding photos. Regardless of whether they came from a “social network” site or not.
And actually, I did a FAR better job concealing my identity overall than Roissy did because although my name, age, and general photos are easy to find…….nothing else is accurate or current. No addresses that are good, no landlines or phone records, no credit cards in my name, not even a good address with the DMV. Roissy’s info was apparently easy to find since several different people sent me various info about him and I doubt they are all P.I.’s. Even his work info is known and specifically what field. There isn’t a single good work address that you will find for me either.
THAT is why I said I’m “being kind” because I could have posted the really personal stuff sent to me and didn’t because I’m a Saint. And could have done so (knowing) that he couldn’t retaliate with any valid personal info on me.
Win, win for me. Lose-lose (much like most of his life) for him.
Boo-hoo.
I didn’t think there were even wiggers still around. God, I hope not. “Ghetto-Wear” is soooo unattractive.
She’s a man jawed German anti-semite. How original!
You’re right. I don’t like you. You’re the type of low class whore that makes the rest of us look like stupid sluts and the reason men like Roissy exist in the first place. The kind of whore who doesn’t see the irony of working in a strip joint but is grandly offended that someone would insinuate you were a prostitute. What’s the problem? Prostitutes have a lot of confidence in themselves and have no problem selling their bodies to stupid men. That’s how you justify stripping, isn’t it? What if Roissy did jokingly insinuate you were a prostitute. It fits into your life philosophy just fine.
*Don’t you have something better to be doing at work in Chatswood, Sydney Australia than bothering with little old me?*
Lady Raine Says:
Please, I have seen the pics of women he supposedly “slept” with and they are certainly not more attractive than I am. Whether it sounds arrogant or not doesn’t matter, because some of the “uglies” he’s slept with are shocking!
Feel free to post the photos.
Natalie–
Considering that I’ve never spoken to you (at least not that I recall) and that you jumped on my blog JUST to attempt to tear me up shows who the “low-class” person here is. Why would I feel the need to justify stripping? It’s a legal job and it makes a person tons of money. There are millions of obvious differences between a hooker and a stripper, but it doesn’t surprise me that you don’t see those obvious differences. It’s clear that you are an older, married, sagging woman who’s husband no longer looks at her and is angry at ANY woman who further helps to divert her hubbie’s attention elsewhere.
I have an excellent education, am trained in and work in a technical position (for years now) and once worked as a dancer for a whole 8 months of my life. Do I feel guilty or ashamed? Why would I? Do I feel “empowered”? Nope. My opinion on dancing is that it was fun, good exercise, lots of chances to dance to music I love, and of course lucrative income. Considering that male customers aren’t even allowed to TOUCH the dancers (or they get removed by the police and charged with assault as was the policy at the club I worked for)…..I don’t see how you could make any sort of connection between “men looking at you” and “men having sex with you and paying you for it”.
There is no connection, it’s not even similar except in the way that both stripping and prostitution are part of the “sex industry” so to speak.
Furthermore, I didn’t dance out of desperation…..I danced because I wanted to try it! Nothing more sinister than that. I make plenty of money WITHOUT dancing in my regular trade and am comfortably “middle-class”. I come from a well-off financially family who made sure I had a proper education and had drive to succeed in a “career”. I have both and have been successful at both.
I’m sure in your tiny, less-educated, housewife mind……every stripper is a “hooker-in-waiting” and every woman with high self-esteem and a good income (without hubbie) is an “arrogant cunt”. But I think it’s time someone should tell you that those things only happen in those Soap Operas of yours.
Please don’t ever try to speak of what my “philosophy” is because I doubt that you are even educated enough to know what the word means.
All you have done thus far here at my blog is make accusations randomly, answer them yourself regardless of what the truth is, and then end each comment with a childish and bitter insult that drips of your own psychological issues.
Please there is a simple answer to why I wouldn’t be a prostitute.
A. Dancing is much better money
B. Prostitution is illegal
C. I would never allow a man to have sex (or touch me) without having earned it.
I have no problem with women being prostitutes and I genuinely hope that it will be legalized in the United States because most of (us) ladies who have good jobs, have had whatever kids we wanted, and are still free to date (or not date) freely……are tired of panting, drooling losers trying to buy us drinks at the bar and hit on us at the grocery store.
I would be THRILLED to have men have their own legal “sexual outlet” like whorehouses because I would love to not have to have men take their constant schoolboy libidos elsewhere and leave us normal girls ALONE!
However, I could never be a prostitute because I feel most men are essentially undeserving of my attention, my body physically, or even my time. I’m much too selective in regular dating to be able to just “have sex with whomever” for an income. It’s not a moral issue for me, it’s just that I’m very shallow and am physically repulsed by men who are anything less than handsome, intelligent, tall, and are in good shape. I could never “take one for the team” with an unattractive man just for a little extra cash.
Dancing, on the other hand allows me to wear fun costumes, dance to music I love, and get handed cash just for doing a little dance, smiling, and saying “hello” to a man. All you have to be good at it is feigning interest in the customer for a few minutes long enough to take their money and move on to the next lonely loser.
You are just angry and raging out at me because it pisses you off that some women really CAN have it all. And you are clearly not one of them. Maybe if you ask hubbie nicely he’ll let you go out with the cronies for a “girls night”, eh????
Willard, are you serious? The most recent is the post where the very heading includes a picture of him (face blacked out) with some unattractive, balding woman in his bed. She was a fugly for sure.
Just curious – does anybody, after viewing this post, view roissy in any less regard?
I’d still have drinks with the guy. Hell, I’d even BUY his drinks. And if he really is 40+, that’s pretty damn good.
It’s hard to have any sort of regard for someone you don’t really know. Missing out on the 8-5 Roissy-at-FINRA probably doesn’t mean you miss the whole measure but certainly a large part of it.
LOL!!!! How could anyone possibly “view Roissy in less regard” than they already do!!! Like I said, his words and opinions alone are enough to do that for me.
That’s like worrying about ruining Heidi Fleiss’s “good name”…..ah hahaha let’s be serious, here people. There is nothing I could post that would make good old Jimmy look any more desperate, lonely, childless, and past his prime then he already is.
It makes a LOT more sense to me now that he always “encourages” his readership to “become more aggressive” as the men age in their gaming abilities. He’s a 41 year old guy with no wife, no kids, and nothing going for him (except maybe his job?)
His blog is JUST about women, dating, and game. Isn’t it pretty obvious what’s happening there? He knows that having kids at his age is ridiculous, irresponsible, and probably unlikely. He knows that he is one of the only guys left who is still trolling the bars to “pick up sluts” at the age of 41……and knows that the only way to “fill the void” that is his life is to convince other men his age to do what he does.
Pathetically troll bars that you are MUCH to old to be in, dress like you are 19 to feign being a “young catch”, lie about your age and career, aggressively bother women in public places that are CLEARLY out of your league (and age range), and MAYBE get a phone number from a desperate drunk girl.
I think it’s amazing that his own readers don’t seem to have the lightbulb clicking on in their heads that he just wants to “take everyone down with him” in his mid-life crisis loneliness and impending realization that now he’s just an aging, childless shell of a man with such a bad reputation that he knows he’d never have gotten a “quality woman” 10 years ago……let alone now when he’s well past his prime (especially for raising kids or living to see grandbabies).
He tries to live as a man who is 21, meanwhile he’s now an old man and has nothing to show for it except having a job and maybe “getting more pussy” than other guys. Wow.
I actually feel really bad for him after realizing the many “truths” about him that I’ve discovered.
roissy has deleted the Happy Birthday Lady Raine! post.
Too bad because I was kicking Mandy XD!’s little Cuban butt all over the place in that post.
LR: (Are you serious, Willard? I haven’t been over there lately because I went to my 10 year reunion and have started a mural on my bedroom ceiling so I’ve been busy this weekend……god it’s like kicking a puppy…..it really is.)
Oh, this is interesting. I had a feeling that this was coming eventually. Let me go grab some popcorn…
On a side note, I’m going to guess that Roissy won’t respond to this. Nothing pisses off someone more than when they take the time to do something to someone and then said person doesn’t even respond or acknowledge it.
Lady Raine, you’re a fucking cunt. You know that, right?
Assanova–
Pretty much anyone who knows me that I have no problem lying in wait…..3 months….6 months….a year…..lol.
No, but seriously….had info not been dropped like the stork dropping a baby at my doorstep….I probably wouldn’t have bothered but who can resist such fun?
Indeed. That’s exactly why I ignored his many posts about me since June (until now obviously).
I’m not anymore “pissed” at him, then usual though. I just think he earned it and am quite happy to deliver it
Cimabue–
OMG !!! Are you SERIOUS???? The hell you say, sir! I had NO idea all these years and finally you rode in on your horse named “Obvious” and delivered this important bit of information about me!
I cannot thank you enough.
Sincerely,
LR
You two should just have sex and get it over with. You’ll feel much better afterwards. Anger towards one another=great sex. In fact, I think I’m going to go piss someone off right now.
Assanova–
I don’t hate him enough to have sex with him (and you know exactly what I mean so don’t pretend you don’t
)
Besides…..I like tattoos, shaved heads, dark features, and extra tall/muscular types with a “military” style attitude and lifestyle (if not someone who was actually IN the military).
I think it’s safe to say that Roissy’s (gag) emo-prep style and overall looks aren’t synonymous with my tastes.
Here is a pic of one of my exes (whom I had the longest relationship with) who was my “normal style” of guy. He was the ranger/sergeant guy that was one of my high school sweethearts and then my boyfriend for a few years as adults (we still talk a lot but he lives in Florida).
Well, since he’s actually 41, Jewish, and works for FIRNA, I guess everything he’s had to say on male/female dynamics is totally wrong! Back to normal guys! Only men behave like machiavellian opportunists in the sexual marketplace, not our precious angelic women who should be revered like queens and godesses. If you got owned in divorce court that’s your fucking fault, asshole, don’t try to blame women or gynocentric famiy law. LR’s thugspawn son will also turn out just fine. Thanks LR, you really got him this time!
Man I hope he doesn’t stop blogging over this bullshit.
“He encourages men to go back to the “id”…..the caveman inside themselves…….and care about nothing but eating, sleeping, and fucking.”
This part is kinda true though, it’s one of Roissy’s most obvious shortcomings. I’m guessing he’s a man of few hobbies and passions outside of young pussy, which is definitely a shame. In my personal life, I don’t have much respect for people who’s main pursuit is simply getting laid. It is kinda hypocritical for him to be hatin on lawyers all day long given how close his own occupation is to law.
This might be true;he probably is just a lonely old man who’s stuck in his 20s. But is that really detracting from the truth’s he speaks about how men and women behave? I think not. All our lives, we’re told that men are voracious animals of unquenchable lust and women are pure, moral, chaste, or failing those, “empowered”, liberated, and independent. I feel like Roissy sheds some light on one of the dark aspects of human nature that nobody else is willing to address in a stifled intellectual climate; the nature of female sexuality.
Roissy may be a middle aged man who needs to grow up, but that doesn’t make him wrong about everything. Perfectly good hardwoking men still get their lives destroyed in divorce courts, the same men still get duped into raising other men’s children, women still fall madly in love with violent men, serial killers, and abuser, women still delude themselves into thinking they can raise a child in a single parent household just as well as with a partner. Most importantly I think, fathers are still viewed as disposable atm machines by the family court system. Women are not perfect angels and men hideous devils. Every human being is capable of evil and cruelty toward the opposite sex. Roissy’s personal life has no bearing on any of this, he’s only a messenger. You’re not refuting the truths of the messages, you’re only attacking the one who delivered them, which maybe you have the right to do given all the shit he’s talked about you. But don’t go prancing around as if you’ve bested him intellectually and everything he’s ever said is simply wrong because of the man he is.
Tsk tsk.
Roissy is Roissy. He’s apparently having fun with his life, something many people can’t say. Who really cares if you find him attractive Lady Raine? Do you think I care if he doesn’t think you are attractive? I find you attractive, though you’d probably not find me attractive. He gets his, you get yours, I get mine.
You two were almost made for each other now that I think of it. The Evil Queen and King of blogging.
I’ve got a huge smile right now.
Clarence, I really want to believe roissy can do better. I mean…that would be so disappointing to see him with someone like LR. So average looking. So low class. Yeah, LR keep telling yourself you’re better looking than the girl in his bed. Hell, she’s better looking than you with NO photoshop and NO make up. Your heavily photoshoped pictures are telling me you are not half of what you believe you are.
Actually, good for you, I’m not here to attack you self steem. Just keepin’ it real. Someone here has to.
Well, I gotta go, I have a meeting.
you take pleasure in beating a 19 year old girl??? How marvelous of you willard.
I’ve said it from the word go that the two make an intense couple.
Well, I gotta go, I have a meeting.
A meeting on yahoo IM with a 72 year old posting as a 21 year old heartthrob.
I’m not here to attack you self steem.
Yes you are. I must say that R must be good in bed for you to keep coming back to attack her. LR don’t burn your bridge with R just yet, maybe you can get a good time out of it.
Just keepin’ it real
Well, let’s see your picture then we can rip you to shereds too.
btw, it looks like Roissy is trying to make amends since he’s delated the lady raine posts. So let the two of them work out their issues, and you and I just sit back and be quite ok.
Silvia?
Did your “nobody” call today?
Sorry, couldn’t resist. If you don’t get the joke, think early 80′s country/pop fusion.
But not as intense as US, chicklet.
It took me a almost 4 days to find this train wreck? Damnit, that’s what I get for gorging myself.
I like Roissy’s blog, I like much of what is written there. Just like 95% of what you find on the blogosphere, you take it all with a grain of salt . You (if you’re wise) do not invest too much of yourself into the acclaim of nameless and faceless people. I’m fine with that.
I firmly believe if you are going to blog about subjects which are certain to piss people off, you should show your face and name. It just looks chickenshit otherwise.
Oh well, I’ll fell this in the “how low can bloggers go” file. It’s been growing rather quickly of late.
Hippos–
What are you blabbering about? I was never divorced, never went to court over a divorce or custody issues, and I’m not sure what I personally have to do with anything you just said in your post. Way to flip out, though.
Yeah but that also explains why he hates “female lawyers” so much. There’s a lot of women that deal in the business law and criminal law so I’m guessing he works directly with lawyers all the time. Instead of hating the individual (female lawyer) he now hates them all.
Pretty much like these guys that date a few “bad chicks” and blame ALL women everywhere (cough cough).
No, I didn’t say that I have any interest in “bringing Roissy down” or “besting him”. I simply answered the question that Natalia was throwing around as to “what right do I have to post this about him”? I simply shared the fact that I have about 6 posts that are the “reason” I owe him this one.
Even though I think we all know I’d do it with or without a reason and show no remorse anyhow. My point was that I don’t have to try to “shame” Roissy’s “character” because the words he speaks do that FOR me. Men may not all be evil and women may not all be angels, but again this attitude that every woman is either a horrible feminist slut or a golddigging, baby-dropping harpie is absolutely ridiculous.
And to this day it STILL amazes me that he would EVER consider me of all people to be an “enemy of men”. I’m not an enemy of men…..nor women…..nor mothers…..I’m an enemy to anyone who is an asshole. You know how they say “the best way to catch a Serial Killer is to become one?”
Clarence–
Nope. I think he’s very boring/normal looking. I only posted his photo with name because he’s done it to me so many times. Obviously if it were a big deal (to me personally) I’d have had him remove my photos long ago or posted many of these about him.
Only after seeing letters from women who (allegedly) know him in real life and say he’s a “bad guy” that “abuses” women did I figured why should I NOT post it? True or not? He always posts without knowing the truth either way so hey….I’m allowed to amuse myself as well, eh?
Hmmm Silvia–
Aren’t you the same one who always jumps in on Roissy’s blog to talk about OTHER women’s looks? Ummm and the only pics that have been “shopped” are the ones that are OBVIOUSLY done so since they have frames and fun tints. Anyone with functioning eyeballs can see that ALL of them are shitty cell phone pics that I randomly add to my pages.
And I’ve had a “no makeup” picture on my myspace for about 2 years now. Not that your issue is that. I don’t know you or know of anything of value you have ever said at Roissy’s other than jumping in to insult women.
I’m not “delusional” about my looks. I never claimed to be a supermodel, hard body, or fantastic in any other way. But if you genuinely think I’ve ever had a prob landing a handsome, classy guy……you’re sadly mistaken.
It’s pretty clear to anyone who knows “Intro to Psychology” that you are angry that I’m NOT beautiful, brilliant, and evil and STILL can have any man I want. Any woman can and if you DON’T it’s because your personality sucks and you’re probably lacking self-esteem. That’s not something you should hate me for. It’s just the way it is. It’s not something that I (foolishly) believe is because of my looks specifically……
Maybe you should go talk to Assanova about “natural game” and then you’ll understand.
Chic–
Actually I know exactly what our beloved Roissy is up to:
He will likely delete some (maybe ALL) of his posts about me (and the pictures) because that is the ONLY way he can turn around and demand that I remove THIS post about him. He knows that since he has so many posts with my name and info and pics that he can hardly try to complain to have mine removed. I already have that particular scenario covered so he’s going to fail if he tries that avenue.
OR
He thinks that if he deletes them and I still have mine that I’ll feel like a “meanie” for leaving this one up.
However, I genuinely do NOT know who sent me the info about him (Meaning I just have an email addy and COULD of course just track the ip and email addy….but I figure whomever it is that knows him and sent this stuff to me probably wanted him to know, I’d imagine??? I dunno, maybe an ex of his or something? Either way, I know HOW Miss X (allegedly) knows him…..but I didn’t ask anything further outside of that because I have no interest in figuring out who hates him.
That would definitely be a needle in a haystack, I am sure.
BTW Chic LOLZ on the stuff to Silvia. I recall her posting about my looks LONG ago and publicly stating that SHE is a tall, thin, muscular, Brazilian Beauty. You’d think if you were THAT impressive she’d have posted a pic to back it up. Obviously she’s “angry, fat, housewife” who hates any woman who is “comfortable” with her non-supermodel looks such as myself.
Ummmm, what????
I hope you are referring to Roissy when referring to the “chickenshit” comment since my photos, name, and everything ARE placed all over Roissy’s page. And I gladly will tell you that “Wendy Schwartz posted this blog about Jimmy” and has no need for anonymity.
OH, I can go MUCH lower than this……lol. He tossed his hat in the ring soooo many times….I assume he wants to dance!!!!!
PS: Sorry it took me me like two days to answer these comments, I went to my 10 year Class Reunion and actually had a few dirty martini’s and I swear to Christ it took my two days to NOT feel like shit.
I will probably post a blog about the fun of a 10 year reunion (since everyone was like “whaaat? who actually LIKES going to those).
I do.
Anyhow, I also started painting a new mural on my bedroom ceiling and my OCD sort of makes me obsess about changing, fixing, finishing it……grrrrr.
Anyhow sorry for my absence it was a busy weekend.
Why’d he stop loving her today?
angry, fat, housewife LOL!
…you realize how hard it would be for an angry, fat housewife to like roissy and his blog, don’t you? Also, you realize how hard it is for a slut to like roissy and his blog too, I’m pretty sure you do. Every now and then some slut shows up and starts leaving angry comments for a while then she finally stops. Or he makes her stop. It’s the slut-pattern at roissy’s.
If I was any of this things, or ugly, or old, LR I would have joined you 2. You and your lawyer chic.
Silvia–
If I’m not mistaken, you described yourself on Roissy’s blog in the past as a “tall, beautiful, Brazilian, hard-bodied, athletic woman”. Somehow, I think if you were any of those things you wouldn’t be skulking around on the internet with JUST the intention of insulting random strange women and their looks.
It’s actually really funny that you call me a slut considering I don’t even HAVE sex and aren’t sexually active, but once again when a woman comes to my blog ONLY to insult the way I look, then I know she is angry and jealous for whatever reason and doesn’t actually KNOW anything about me at all. Just because I’m “not into” marriage doesn’t make me a slut. Its means I’m not a gold-digging co-dependent dumb-ass. Also, I have no idea what “lawyer chick” you are talking about.
But I’m sure being a “Brazilian Supermodel” you don’t have time to read any of this in between modeling shoots. You must think I have a bad memory, dear Silvia…..but that IS how you described yourself physically, right?
I’m sorry and I’m the delusional slut? I think not, darlin’
And the only reason you can post at Roissy’s is because you ONLY say things about other women, jump in and swoon and croon for Roissy’s attention…..and agree with everything any of the men say. If no one ever told you, kissing ass makes it easy for people to “be nice”. If you honestly think it’s because you are “hot” or “special” it’s not. It’s just like how the rest of the world works…..life is easy when you go with flow of “cattle”. I’m pretty sure you know that and also are quite used to just BEING one of the cattle in life.
That’s why you hate women like me. I do my own thing, I have whatever job I want, what children I want, my own income without relying on a man, and most importantly my freedom to do whatever I choose. If you would try living life doing your own thing instead of kissing people’s asses to “fit in” you might have a chance at success too. I somehow doubt you need it though what with your lucrative modeling career and all though.
(PS: I’m not mean enough to post it, but I’m sure I could give you Roissy’s phone number and you could maybe beg him for some dick that way, instead. Worth a try, eh?)
?? What do you mean???
Lady,
i emailed you; i was wondering if you received it.
Oh, nevermind….I found your message and replied, Chuck
to your yahoo account and to your myspace page.
LR- first, I’m not sure all this info is correct. I know a few things about Roissy and I think much of this info is actually wrong.
Regardless of that: this did go over a line. It’s OK for you to hate and/or abuse Roissy as he can hate and abuse you. Flame wars are part of the fun of the Internet, after all. But all your information and pics, including those of your son, were online and so available for the whole world to see. All Roissy did was repackage this public info with commentary. (The exception is the porn video post.)
You, on the other hand, made public info that he intended to keep private – apparently at the behest of some stranger. (I wonder if someone should track down this mysterious Miss X and make her private information public. Turnabout is fair play. Or maybe she doesn’t exist and you did all the web sleuthing yourself.) Chuck is right – there’s a difference in kind here.
Also, why the antisemitism? I don’t think Roissy is Jewish, but really, would it matter if he was? Your language and attitudes are seriously backward.
Maurice–
What a ridiculous thing for you to say. Well the “photos and info” I found on Roissy WERE public info and I did not have to do anything “illegal” or immoral to get it, so how is that any different?
He did not “only post things that I made public” that’s a big fat lie. The ONLY thing that was public were photos of me. He then took those photos and made up complete lies including my name, my info, and my fam’s as well. He publicly posted a porno video and tried to pass it off as me. I have never been in a porno and yet he still tried to pass it off that way didn’t he? He has made public accusations of me being a prostitute, a whore, and in “pornos” using MY photos and name.
If I really WERE a hooker and in porno and it was public that would be a different story, however that is NOT the case. That would be like me publicly accusing Roissy of being a Rapist and putting his name and picture next to it.
It’s exactly the same thing and this is HARDLY crossing the line considering this is ONE to his MANY posts about me since May last Spring. He did not “just repost things that were already public” He made up complete lies and slander using my photos and name.
Completely different and if he feels it’s “okay” to take photos that were “found publicly” then clearly……the same applies on my end, now doesn’t it?
As for you saying you don’t know whether the info posted here is true or not, I have already stated a thousand times over that I posted what information was sent to ME in two separate emails. (Except for the updated part where I clearly stated otherwise). I have NO idea if the info is true, correct, accurate, or updated. I already made that clear. I didn’t “change” the emails that were sent to me in anyway.
And “Miss X” is the name that the email was SENT to me under…..not a name that I made up to protect her identity. She emailed me as “Miss X” and the other person posted his address publicly here in the comments.
I don’t care whether you believe me or not. Roissy tried to slander my name with lies about porno and prostitution (neither of which are true) along with pics of me and my fam and he deserves FAR worse than a few pics and a post.
I posted what I was sent. I don’t know how to make it any clearer that I literally just copied and pasted the email here and only removed the part where Miss X made reference to exactly HOW she knows him.
I don’t care whether he takes the ones down about me or not because hes’ already had a bunch of slander posted about me for 6 months so he can’t “undo” it anyhow.
Maybe he’ll learn his lesson.
On the antisemitism…..mostly because it rhymed with “Jimmy” and also because many traditionally German last names ended up being Jewish eventually by the mixing and such.
Wendy-
OK, the pix aren’t the point – the supposed identity, workplace, address, and family members are. That information is not public, and even if some alleged acquaintance of his e-mailed it to you you need not have posted it.
You chose to put your name, life, and child pix on MySpace; he did not. His blog is about a set of issues which are not really about him; he is a talented writer with interesting perspectives and strong opinions about pickup, sex, psychology, etc. his following is about that, not who he is. You keep showing up so there’s something in his writing that keeps you coming, despite all the mock over-the-top abuse.
By contrast, your blog is about you. Which is also fine, it’s just a different choice.
So it’s a privacy issue, which is unconnected to the stuff he said about you and that you said about him on his blog. That’s just regular Internet BS flaming. Do you actually think he thought you were in a porno video? He was just baiting you. You should be flattered that he thought you were hot enough to do that. (You did speak pretty openly about having been a stripper…) He mocks your life choices as you mock his views; fine.
But posting the alleged PII of someone who doesn’t want it revealed on the Internet crosses over an ethical, and possibly legal, line. You ought to take the high road here and take down the post, or at least the PII. Your abusive opinions are find and excellent tit-for-tat; the privacy violation is not, and a different thing entirely.
they had make-up sex.
^
“btw, it looks like Roissy is trying to make amends since he’s delated the lady raine posts. So let the two of them work out their issues, and you and I just sit back and be quite ok.”
I’m pretty sure “Jimmy” and “Jew” don’t rhyme.
The term you’re looking for is “alliteration.” That’s when a string of words starts with the same letter.
I doubt that you’re anti-Semetic or that you intended this post to come off as such. But because this is an “attack post,” then people are going to assume, rightly or wrongly, that anything you put into the post is part of the attack. So by gleefully calling him “Jimmy the Jew,” it sounds like “Jew” is one of his weaknesses you’ve discovered and is part of what you’re making fun of.
Again, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that wasn’t your intention. But that’s how most people are going to interpret it. Years of working in an “image” business has taught me that it doesn’t always matter whether you’re right or what you really meant – what makes headlines is how it all looked.
Assanova–
Yes actually that IS what he is doing, but like I already said….that’s like telling someone you have HIV 6 months after you slept with them……
Him taking his bullshit down now has nothing to do with/rectifies nothing because it was soooo long ago and not why I posted this anyhow.
Maurice, you really don’t seem to be getting the point here. Roissy did not “repost” things that were already public about my life.
He used photos and completely MADE UP a life about me that does NOT exist anywhere publicly OR privately.
You don’t strike me as stupid, so I don’t really understand why you keep saying that “he only posted what I had made public”….if that were true, he’d have posted my “public pics” and listed me as a “CNC Programmer” because THAT info IS public. He made up an ENTIRE ongoing story about MY LIFE using MY NAME and MY PHOTOS to support things that were blatant lies and slander from the start.
I was never in porno, was never a hooker, was never married…..etc. and yet he presented all those things as close to being “fact” as he could without actually SAYING it’s fact. Don’t play bullshit with me, Maurice….he didn’t post my “already public” life. He posted my “already public” photos and AND A BUNCH OF SHIT UP and continued to “post” on those lies for 6 months.
He wanted to play the “loophole” game and use someone’s pictures to make up an interesting blog story…..and took it further and further and further……
There isn’t even one teeny-tiny part of me that feels badly or guilty about my post and I understand he’s your “friend” or whatever…..but you know you are defending a man who played with fire……light the match…..kept adding gasoline…..
then got burned.
Ouch, poor baby…..fuck him.
PS: Maurice you keep saying “as long as it was already public it’s fine”.
Guess what, those pics of him ARE public. I didn’t have to use ANY private investigation site, any “illegal” means, or anything questionable to get those pics of him OR that info.
Guess that makes it okay, by your standards then right?
That’s the point I’m trying to make. Just because someone’s pics or maybe name or whatever exist SOMEWHERE ON THE INTERNET does not make them “free game”. I’m showing him that his info is also “easily available” and free game then…….
now isn’t it?????
Riff–
Yes, yes….you’re right on the alliteration….you know what I meant anyhow. And don’t worry, I could care less if anyone things I’m “racist” because I openly mock and/or point out the obvious flaw in ALL races and cultures (including White People).
Furthermore, I’m sure you know that of all things me being (allegedly) antisemitic is hardly what would be finally upset me, lol.
Yes some people take something as simple as my “childish name calling because it’s funny” and making it antisemitic……pfffffft fuck those people.
Do you actually think he thought you were in a porno video? He was just baiting you. You should be flattered that he thought you were hot enough to do that.
Maurice, puff puff past bro puff puff past.
Also, why the antisemitism? I don’t think Roissy is Jewish, but really, would it matter if he was? Your language and attitudes are seriously backward
I don’t like her antisemitism either but she isn’t the only person on that blog who lets lose with a bit of it. Your favorite commedian Firepower lets lose with his own bit everynow and then.
LR- first, I’m not sure all this info is correct. I know a few things about Roissy and I think much of this info is actually wrong.
Well then why make such a big thing about it? When you make comments on this post, you help to draw traffic to it. Futhermore, telling her she has some info wrong may encourage LR or other folks to do more digging.
@silvia- Me a lawyer, I rather imagined myself a screenwriter
(LR says: Is that who she was talking about? You? Like I said….I recall Silvia describing herself as a “tall, muscular, Brazilian, model…..I think that really says it all, Chic.)
Oh please…..Roissy is a 40-something pasty white dude….I’m not flattered by any “old gross guy” attention. There’s already plenty of that kind of thing going around for women to deal with. He can send that “attention” elsewhere.
*chic noir blushes*
maurice to LR You chose to put your name, life, and child pix on MySpace; he did not
but did she put her info on myspace to be taken and misused by r??? I think not.
@LR- Maurice was blowing smoke up your ass with that comment. That’s why I told him to puff puff pass. In other words, he should pass around the chief he’s smoking cause it’s screwing wit his brain.
All right people all right… I have something I want to say.
*chic noir steps up to the podium and grabs mike clears throat*
*winks at default sitting in the front row*
Chic noir’s take….
Both Roissy&LR are wrong. Roissy for starting the war with LR and flaming her name all over the internet including that of her child which truly crossed the line. I don’t care if LR posts pic of herself on myspace. Unless she gave R permission to use them…. He was wrong.
I can’t believe I’m about to say this but…..
*chic noir shudders*
It’s also wrong of LR to post his personal info online when it could cost him his job and we know job’s aren’t easy to come by these days. He isn’t liked by some and anyone could track him down beat his ass(he deserves0 or put a bullet into his head(to much even for him).
Not about R wanting his privacy…. NO I would argue that he doesn’t. He has posted his picture a few times and the fact that he meets with commenters from his blog should tell you that he was willing to risk it. Don’t forget that he has written purposely inflammatory posts about important people as well as minorities and women. He likes attention. The article LR linked to, roissy posted linked to on his blog. He gave his name to the writer(maybe) of the article so it’s not like he wasn’t courting attention.
I’ve mentioned to R a number of times that it would one day come back to haunt him because his readership is too large. When the folks from fou.ch.an invaded the blog about a month ago, I knew he was in his last days. IIRC, I warned for the third time during the invasion. He knew it was only a matter of time but I’m guessing that he would of preferred his outing come from a major news outlet along with a 6-7 figure book deal.
His outing by lady raine is like one of you guys having an 30 minutes to do anything you want to with megan fox and only lasting 10 seconds.
@Chuck, Maurice and Clarence- I believe that an anonymous person gave LR that info because the same thing happened with me when he wrote that “how to tell if a woman is a slut” post. I got about 10 random emails from people but I didn’t take that road because I’m too soft hearted I guess.
*steps down from podium*
*whispers to clarence*
I was really hoping the two of them would meet and release that passion they have for one another.
Chic–
Exactly. Roissy is playing on the “if it can be found on the internet, it’s fair game” theory….so whether I’m right or wrong, I really AM serving up a plate of exactly THAT ridiculous defense. So basically as long as I can find a public name and photo I can post whatever the hell I want to about them whether it’s true or not!!!!
Clearly, Chic you see the point I’m trying to make to Maurice here and I know you don’t agree with any of this nonsense….but I appreciate your calling out the same bullshit I’m seeing here.
Yup, Chic I think anyone who knows me knows that I’d be MORE than happy to take complete credit for all the info posted about him, however I really did receive more than two anonymous emails within the same 2 days…. I would have no reason to “pretend” that it WASN’T me. Every punch delivered to Roissy’s balls would be one I’d take credit for had I done it.
I did, however go and “verify” some of the info first to make sure it WAS publicly searchable information and was relatively accurate. It was.) I already told these henchmen that I OMITTED things that would have been FAR more “upsetting” and yes a public blogger like Roissy who intentionally flames, intentionally draws the line in the sand, and tosses his hat in the ring repeatedly is only getting a date with a lovely lady I know named “Karma”.
Well thankyou
IIRC, aoefe told me i was good at calling people on their BS the other day. When it’s so obvious, it can really be anoying so I feel the need to call folks out on it.
P.S. for the life of me, I can’t understand how being told you look like a po&n actresses is a compliment.
SMDH
Chic- I agree, I think they were both wrong. Roissy has a mean streak in his writing that seems to inspire a lot of people to want to get back at him. But it’s all fake. LR, first, I don’t actually remember any posts where he called you a prostitute, and as I said the porno post was not serious. yeah, he makes sh*t up, yeah he doesn’t like your online persona and you don’t like his. but i still think the point is privacy. you can flame each other all you want on his blog, but posting non-public info is something else entirely. But at this point we are talking past each other.
No being compared to a white trash girl in a Porno is NOT a compliment to me at all. It’s not like you have to even be attractive to be in porno….most of the women are truly awful.
As for everyone else, even if you told me that Roissy was dying of Cancer RIGHT NOW I STILL wouldn’t feel bad about this post. The moment he took a photo of my son out of a “family photo album” and started talking about my kid, what kind of dad stuff, what kind of mother am I…..that ALONE is enough reason. Not counting all the other posts and pictures and bullshit so FUCK HIM IN EVERY WAY THAT ONE CAN BE FUCKED. No, seriously.
I doubt Roissy would like it if I “searched” and found pics of Roissy’s nieces and nephews now would I? I could (and should) do just about anything I can muster up in my nasty little mind to do to him and it STILL wouldn’t suffice to make us “even”. There’s far more evening of scores to be had in the future, too. It’s not even out of “revenge” exactly because I’d have done it long ago…..but waiting until after all this time really made it so much better….and morally acceptable.
Who was that guy who once said to me “Tit for tat, baby!”…….
Oh, that’s right….it was good old Jim. I guess he wasn’t being literal, eh? Oh well, guess he should learn to watch his mouth then, eh?
I agree, I think they were both wrong.
good
Roissy has a mean streak in his writing that seems to inspire a lot of people to want to get back at him.
Very true which is why i don’t understand why he didn’t stop while he was ahead.
But it’s all fake.
so you’re saying he is a nice person in the real world??? Maurice *chic smiles sweetly* I do belive your pulling me leg.
If I one day take the china town bus down to DC for a meet&greet, I would like to have your word that you would protect me.
(LR stage whispers to Chic: Except that “Miss X” who contacted me does know him (allegedly) in the real world pretty personally.)
There’s far more evening of scores to be had in the future, too.
now now lady raine. do simmer down. Remember what you said earlier karma. I think you’ve done enough to possibly harm him and may have humbled him a bit in the process. don’t kick him while he’s down.
*gives lady raine a peach whiskey*
quick question, has anyone approached you in the none e-world referencing his blog?
Actually, he had “someone else” contact me and ask me nicely to take it down and that he was removing all posts of me in the meantime. I never at any point have contacted R privately nor spoken to him outside of commenting/posting here and yet he felt compelled to have someone ELSE contact me and say that R is “sorry” and that he THINKS he’s probably learned a lesson and all that. I’ll not mention names unless said person offers up their name…..ahem ahem (LR looks around the room).
However nowhere in above mentioned e-conversation did the “henchmen ala Roissy” actually mention Roissy BEING remorseful of anything at all and he apparently won’t contact me personally because he doesn’t want me to have his IP. No, seriously. I nearly rolled on the floor laughing for obvious reasons because it is not something I’d need at this point anyhow and because he must genuinely think I’m just “lying in wait” to ruin him or something.
Jesus Christ, he’s just some dude with a blog….he acts like the CIA and contacts me “through a person….to a person”.
Not a good show of “manning-up” at all on his part.
Nein! I’ll have an extra-dirty Kettel One Martini, please madame!!!!
To answer your question Chic: You mean like face to face real world? No. definitely not. No phone calling or anything like that. However I have indeed been contacted via various email addresses of mine and also on myspace and of course here as well. It’s rather easy to find a way to “e-contact” me which is fine with me.
I was contacted now by MORE people including (alleged) “friends of Roissy” who are nicely asking this and that and apologizing FOR him, but that really doesn’t move me a whole lot. I have had the angel and demon on my shoulder since yesterday on that one simply because I was tempted to put an “ask the readers” blog post here and post THOSE emails (and omit the info on whom sent it for their privacy) and see what everyone thinks about it. I thought it was a “pussy-way” to handle something that’s so ridiculous.
LOL. I didn’t read much of this Roissy guy as I just stumbled on your blog when I was googling Gia and then Janice and came across your Janice post.
Anyway, I also came across that Roissy dude and checked his blog (more like scanned through) and then his post about testing the ‘game skills’ of his reader. The test was about this guy’s girl kept talking or kept mentioning about this ex of hers (that he was sure the first time they did not sleep together) and now he was not so sure, like… what would you do?
Upon reading THAT (and mind you I did not read much of anything else), I went like… WTF? I mean, WHY did this guy even bothered too much? Insecurity? His last chance of actually having a gf? His manhood is depending on it? What? What? It’s not even a dilemma, it was nothing, lol! SO what if she actually slept with that ex and she lied? I did not get it at all, what? Are we still living in the 18th century or something where women must be a virgin or forever burn in hell? Pffffft!
He tickled my ‘gina’, seriously and not in a good way, more like… in a bloody funny way I’m rolling on the floor at how he brought insecurity to another level! *rotfl*
LR, you did not cross the line. Self proclaimed alpha male should be able to take this, no?
PS: I don’t even know you but heck this Roissy type sure brings out the feminist in me, lol!
chic noir Says:
November 28, 2009 at 6:30 PM
you take pleasure in beating a 19 year old girl??? How marvelous of you willard.
Not “beating”, you irrational, third world primitive.
I said “kicking the little butt”.
That has a different meaning in this context than what you are used to in your ghetto trash heap neighborhood.
F.Idrus–
Yes, I don’t think I crossed any lines that he hadn’t already 6 months ago. To make a long story short, I stumbled upon his blog in May last Spring accidentally through the “Cracked” Comedy Site (because someone linked his blog as a joke). I went there, couldn’t believe the assholery and plain old childish posts and left a few comments NOT in his favor.
That was enough that he posted like 6 or 7 posts DEDICATED to photos of me, photos of my son (that he took from my myspace after stalking around looking for them, I guess) and then posted a Porno Video (said it was me)…..and all the other junk you’ve read in the comments here.
As you can see, this is my FIRST post about him and no matter HOW much people bitch at me that I’m not playing fair it doesn’t ruffle my feathers in the slightest. After all I don’t remember making THAT arrangement
Ahhhhhh, you just summed up EXACTLY what the general attitude over at Roissy’s place is. It all really comes down to that. Those men are beyond insecure about their place in this world. Some of this is because boys aren’t being raised with discipline and character anymore…..part of this is women having too much power (in their minds) that they don’t feel “needed” anymore and need a person/group of people to blame for those things.
That would be women. ALL women. Over there….if you are married you’re a goldigger, if you’re single and like to date freely then you’re a slut, if you’re “career oriented” and don’t have kids….you’re a ballbusting bitch……etc.
It’s all just the blame game and apparently Roissy felt especially threatened by me for whatever reason. I guess because I’m a single mom, don’t take child support, have a “man’s trade” as my career, and am financially independent and have never felt the need to marry.
That is what makes guys like those shriek like the schoolgirls they are. They know that if more women lived like that, they’d have less and less value……and less and less “angles” to run on women.
LMAO I don’t think they know we ladies have caught onto all of this looooooong ago.
*Thanks for the comments, I like to see new people actually having the balls to comment around here!
*
That has a different meaning in this context than what you are used to in your ghetto trash heap neighborhood
The only difference in trash in our respective neighborhoods is… Your trash has been bleached.
How about you get a life willard and stop bullying 18 year old girls buddy.
Wow…I guess I’m late to the party.
As far as Raine’s choice to post what she was sent… “Roissy” has never said anything that should lead her or anyone else to believe he wants anyone’s mercy or pity. I was sent similar material, but didn’t give enough of a crap to post anything.
So he got indifference from me and anger from her. He earned it.
Do any of you crybaby sycophants want to say that she was being unfair to him?
Y’all funny.
Yeah, Nicole and I think you and I BOTH know that I certainly waited long enough to post this (ie: I know you remember his very first post about waaaaaay back in May 2009).
I’d never have bothered (investigating him myself, that is) but I hardly felt any sort of remorse over posting info that was sent to me.
Apparently, whenever he freaks out, whoever he was twitching about gets sent the Roissy files from various people who want to see him suffer.
I don’t really see what his fans are crying about though. None of this is surprising to anyone who had their eyes open.
Maybe some of them have a problem with his being Jewish? I bet the more racist ones feel awfully stupid. LOL!
(Edit: You know what? Chic Noir said the same thing about people sending HER emails in the past as well.)
Nicole–
Or perhaps they are looking upon their futures as a 40′s-something, childless, lonely, “old-guy-trying-to-rock-skinny-jeans”, laughingstock amongst their friends! Everyone knows one of those…… the guy that still wants you to “come to his kegger” even though all his friends are married and have kids and careers. The polite “uh-huhs” and silent eye-rolls when he talks about “Saturday at the club….” and “the bad-ass new air hockey table….”.
I agree with you that anyone who reads Roissy regularly would be like “well no shit this was coming” upon seeing these posts of mine, lol.
It’s like when a teenager gets busted with some Pot in their room, so they blame their parents for snooping……
Re old skinny jeans (aka old breakdancer, rustybutt, etc.) I used to mess around with one of those. My old freak husband still laughs at me about that. I laugh at myself too.
Like many older women who don’t allow themselves to age gracefully, some older men are still holding onto the wrong thing too. I don’t understand that because it seems like such a waste.
Why would a guy want to remain in the class of the clueless? Being an older guy is an advantage…or it should be anyway.
Oh, and by the way, I hope you saved the posts and took screenshots before he took them down. I had similar problems in the past, and always keep the files in case they try to raise up again or claim it never happened.
Well there are more than a few people over at Chuck Ross’s Blog who have ALREADY reposted Roissy’s old post of me like “Is Lady Raine In This Porno” post and various others since Roissy took them down already. It doesn’t matter, anyhow like I said because the very same argument Roissy has been using (“well I found it publicly!”) is the same argument I’ll now use as to why it’s totally fine to post every single thing that I’ve posted here (and more).
Not to mention that there were listings of every neighbor in his building(s) and there were only like 3 people other than him that weren’t married couples…..You’ve got to get to a place in your head where you’re like “Okay, so I’m old. I’m single….got no kids….maybe I should at least move into a big-boy house since I’ll be 50 soon”.
Anti-semite.
PS: Yes, some dumb asses over at the Spearhead are reposting the original links. LOL….they apparently didn’t realize they just handed me the evidence that Roissy posted those things all that time ago. So I saved them in their original form…..fake porn video and all…..
Roissy has been “missing” more than usual from his own blog and now there are a ridiculous amount of incoming links from other places linking right to “Jim Wiedmann”……hmmmm hope his work doesn’t get wind of this….might be bad for him…..
(sarcasm and evil laugh obviously included in that statement.)
Darren–
Seriously, if you think that being called a “jew-hater” is insulting you’re sadly mistaken. I couldn’t give a fuck about Jews either way (whether to love them or hate them).
You must be new to …..errr….me. If you are looking for a Politically Correct woman/blog you are DEFINITELY in the wrong place.
(And for future reference, I think if you took these “Hollywood Jews” and had a meeting with some real Israeli Jews…..the Israeli’s would spit on them and say “Uhhhh yeah……we’re busy with REAL problems here.”)
Ask Chic Noir. She’s a Black Woman and she still reads here even though I refer to (some) Black People as “nigs”. See, I call out the worst in EVERY race, creed, and gender.
If you are looking for some big Mel Gibson style apology, you’re looking in the wrong place, pumpkin.
Nope, not looking for political correctness. But your anti-Semitism calls everything else you say into question, for me.
“I couldn’t give a fuck about Jews either way (whether to love them or hate them).”
that usually means you hate them. don’t fool yourself.
LR Edit: In all sincerity, Darren….I live in an area in PA where we don’t even HAVE Jews. How could I hate them? We have ONLY Whites and Asians in my area and when you see a Black Person, you assume they are lost.
Riff Dog –
Alliteration is a type of rhyme. Best not to ‘correct’ others if you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Yeah, and oh ALL the things to be “offended” by that I do or say…..it’s my use of the phrase “Jimmy-The-Jew” that gets people’s panties in a bunch.
Lol, thanks Bella
colorox is the only thing that seperates our neighborhoods. Oh and that we don’t have 3-400+ pounders in these parts either.
Chic–
Are you talking to me? Sorry, I’m genuinely confused as usual.
(I really do only have White People and Asians here. There’s one Black Guy in town. He also happens to be a flaming homosexual with a mohawk.)
If my description of my current town is what you were referring to, that is. Although I did used to live in Allentown for awhile and in that case it was the total opposite. We were the ONLY white people in a very large apartment complex and the rest were specifically Puerto Rican and Dominicans….and of course some Black people mixed in there. It’s weird in this area in PA because you can literally drive 10 minutes and be in a town who has never seen a person of color….then go another 10 minutes and be in a ghetto. Very odd, it really is.
no LR, that post is to Willard. Sorry
here is the orginal one I posted to him someone above.
willard That has a different meaning in this context than what you are used to in your ghetto trash heap neighborhood
The only difference in trash in our respective neighborhoods is… Your trash has been bleached.
How about you get a life willard and stop bullying 18 year old girls buddy
no lady raine that was my response to that old goat willard.
Sorry
here is the orginal one I posted to him someone above.
willard That has a different meaning in this context than what you are used to in your ghetto trash heap neighborhood
The only difference in trash in our respective neighborhoods is… Your trash has been bleached.
How about you get a life willard and stop bullying 18 year old girls buddy
Oh, okay Chic…..I was wondering if you had stolen my Clorox and were trying to tell me that you were White now
Don’t go all MJ on me now, lady!
*Don’t go all MJ on me now, lady*
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
White I may be, but when I steal chicklet from Default, I want her to be her nice brown self. Not some plastic surgeons’s nightmare.
Don’t scare me like that, Lady Raine
Lady Raine Edit: I’d say Chic is more of a “mocha” than “brown”. Mocha makes me think of relaxing evenings by a fire.
Clarence–
Don’t worry, I’d be upset if Chic was getting into my Clorox too….after all, I DO have OCD and not having bleach around the house is enough to throw me into a tizzy.
(If only Roissy’s henchmen knew they could just steal my bottles of cleaning supplies and I’d crumple like a pile of stale graham crackers.)
Ha ha, no pun intended on the “crackers”.
*chic noir waves finger at clarence*
clarence, default is back and he is watching you.
What about about you and kiss.
lil chickletab:
I haven’t talked to kis since that one thread on The Spearhead.
Obviously, tis you my heart pines for. I think.
You want me to leave you two alone?
The “Jimmy the Jew” stuff reads as antisemitic (and ignorant) – Roissy is NOT Jewish. German descent, sure, but plenty of Germans and German-descended Jews have similar names. I’m not trying to attack you here…but you are wrong.
The “Jimmy the Jew” stuff reads as antisemitic (and ignorant) – Roissy is NOT Jewish. German descent, sure, but plenty of Germans and German-descended Jews have similar names. I’m not trying to attack you here…but you are wrong.
This is the last time I’m going to repeat this to everyone and anyone:
I don’t care if Roissy is a Jew, a Black, or a Purple flying monkey…… I picked what sounded good with “Jimmy”. If you cannot wrap your minds around something that simple or want to make it “sinister” well then have a good time.
I don’t care if anyone finds it offensive or not. You certainly have the freedom to NOT read it. Last I checked, I wasn’t breaking into your living room and saving “Lady Raine’s Blog” to your Bookmarks, so if you’re looking for empathy you’re in the wrong part of town.
Wow, you are exactly what is wrong with women. You hook up with some fun guy and he will not commit to you and this what you do?
Seriously…
You are acting like a child. Like a little brat.
I don’t know who your boyfriend is but he obviously isn’t spanking you enough.
-ThePhillyPhil (PUA from Philadelphia)
Wow, you are exactly what is wrong with women. You hook up with some fun guy and he will not commit to you and this what you do?
Uhhh, who are you talking to? I am pretty much against monogamy (for myself at least) and have no desire to have a man commit to me. I constantly run into the problem that modern men seem to want to “settle down” or live with women and that is not at all something I’m into. I never said anything about a “fun boyfriend” or any boyfriend. I never got dicked over by a guy that I can recall and I can’t really say I have had any really “bad” relationships except one. I have nothing against relationships, dating, or men…..I just don’t really like men to be involved in my life past the point of “companionship”.
I don’t like talking to a man (or texting him) more than maybe 2 times per week max. Even if I’m in a long term relationship, I’d rather not “hang out” more than once per week maximum. I’m never comfortable with a man even “staying over” and I cannot remember the last time I have “slept over” at a man’s house.
For me, that’s just too personal. I don’t like others involved in my family and home life (meaning interfering with me and my son) and I don’t like anyone knowing my finances, my feelings, or anything else. I’ve been a very solitary girl since the day I was born. I enjoy hanging out with men, sometimes I enjoy a sexual relationship…..but I really have no “need” or “want” for any sort of LTR or marriage.
I enjoy my (parenting) freedom too much, my financial freedom, and the fact that I have my immediate family all close around me. Those are the very best things in life and I just think of “husbands” or “boyfriends” as outliers that don’t belong (involved in my life except on the outskirts).
That’s my Philosophy on dating and men for MYSELF. I don’t know what you are attempting to accuse me of, but you clearly have never read anything I typed and are just pissed I made one of your “boyz” look like a pussy.
BTW….haven’t you PUA guys figured out by now that anything using words like “Community” or “Fellowship” is a nice name for “Cult”?? You guys really should think about changing that name. It’s probably bad advertising.
If his name was Norman, she would have called him “Norm-the-nigger” and it wouldn’t have been racist! Any offended black people? Fuck’em!
LR is a weird combination of shrewdness and thoughtlessness.
I think you should be reasonable like he was when he took down what you requested he take down before.
If roissy outed himself, and brought this upon him. Fine. He deserves what he dishes.
But the anti-semitism is thick here.
Defend yourself all you want, but the posts about
1) the fascination with building the pyramids
and
2) Nazi U-Boats
is quite informative on its own.
But using the phrase “Jimmy the Jew” unnecessarily brings up a religion in a post that has no reason for this religion (or any religion) being brought up.
You even tagged ‘jew’ as a search term.
WHAT THE HELL???
For all the good and bland posts you’ve made, this is deeply disturbing to me.
You can try to explain away that this can’t *possibly* be the only thing people reading this blog would find objectionable.
But it is.
And yes, I am offended.
You even admit that he’s not Jewish, but you still use it as a negative label because it apparently worked well with “jimmy”
“jimmy the jerk” didn’t come to mind???
I make a sincere request that you remove this bigoted and hateful labeling. I don’t intend to change your views on Jews (only personal reflection will achieve this), but as a matter of civil discourse, please resist the temptation to do nothing.
David Says:
December 13, 2009 at 5:13 AM
If roissy outed himself, and brought this upon him. Fine. He deserves what he dishes.
But the anti-semitism is thick here.
Defend yourself all you want, but the posts about
1) the fascination with building the pyramids
Jews had NOTHING to do with building the Pyramids of Egypt. They were built by Egyptians.
and
2) Nazi U-Boats
Close to NONE of the people killed by the Nazi U-Boats were Jews.
…is quite informative on its own.
Your comments inform us that you know relatively little about history.
Although you get high grades for your Jewish boy paranoia.
I’m not surprised he’s a Jew. He looks like Zach Braff (ewwwww). Could stand to lose 15-25 pounds.
Do women really willingly shtup that? Why? What do they get out of it?
I really think Willard pretty much said what I was going to say, but first I’ll ask you have you lost your damn mind????
First, Nazi U-Boat Technology has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jews at all. You are the one looking for hidden meaning. I supposed you missed my OTHER tech posts about the F-22 Raptor and the Queen Mary II???? Do those posts mean that I support bombing Arabs and also support the sinking of Ocean Liners???
You are truly ridiculous because the very posts you are offended by have NOTHING to do with the Jews.
The building of the Pyramids and the reign of “Khufu” was LONG before the Jews. The slaves that built the pyramids were not Jews, either (nor were they slaves at all).
The only thing I mentioned about the “Jews” was that modern Judaism, Christianity, and many Pagan faiths are DIRECTLY derived from the Ancient Egyptians.
If I hated Jews so much why would I even post about Egyptians? Jews CAME from the Egyptians. So did the Christians. Is my post also Anti-Christian?
You seem to be making these accusations without actually understanding history at all. I’m not trying to insult you, but you are freaking out about things that aren’t even relevant to my posts. There is no mention anywhere on my blog on ANY posts of random descriptive “bigotry” and “hatred” of Jews. There isn’t even a generalized Jewish insult in the Roissy post.
Last, “Jimmy-The-Jerk” totally sucks and is not funny at all. I’m sorry that you are a very serious person and cannot laugh at yourself (your culture) like the rest of us can…..but guess what? When people call me a cold and unfeeling “Kraut”, I’m mature enough to laugh at myself, because each culture has it’s own strengths and weaknesses and if you can’t openly admit them both and *gasp* even LAUGH at them…..then you have a lot left to learn in life.
*PS: I don’t HAVE any views on “Jews”. The only views I have are that I cannot stand “Hollywood Jews” and think they’re ridiculous. However it’s looking like you expect some kind of “Mel Gibson” style apology here and you are definitely barking up the wrong tree.*
I cannot remove “hate and bigotry” from my posts when those things DON’T EXIST except in your own paranoid mind.
Natalie: There’s nothing wrong in being a stripper OR an escort. There are many more degrading or immoral career choices, like sanitation worker or criminal defense attorney. Oddly enough, the people who are most vociferously against strippers/escorts are women…..unattractive women….the kind of women for whom stripping or escorting is NOT an option.
Alias–
Thank you for taking notice of what I thought would be obvious to most people !!
If his name was “Ken” I’d have probably done “Ken-the-Kraut”.
But “Norman-the-Nigger” would work nicely too
Thanks for being capable of rational thought and posting here!!!
HA! Truer words were never spoken! I was surprised that when I was dancing (for the whole 8 months) that I got very few negative reactions when telling people. Men usually said “Damn I wish I was a chick and people would pay to see me dance.”
Other girls/women usually responded with curiousity and not disdain. The ONLY people who were ever openly “disdainful” of my job were the fat, old, unattractive types who would never have to worry about being asked to dance anyway.
A person like Natalie that actually thinks that dancing is “one step away from prostitution” is someone who ONLY knows what they see in popular movies and on t.v.
I never had even ONE “bad” experience that I can recall at the club I worked for. It was a really fun job and our bosses were great. They treated us with respect and didn’t allow any danger whatsoever to befall us. A dancer/escort who works for a reputable employer is nowhere NEAR being a “hooker”.
Our club was strict on NO TOUCHING of the dancers or BY the dancers. There was no alcohol allowed to be served AT the club and dancers were not EVER allowed to be on the premises when they weren’t actively working. You were not allowed to fraternize with customers EVER outside the club or even take/give a phone number or you were immediately fired. No drinking or drugs was strictly enforced at our club.
We were walked to our cars in one large group by the Bouncers carrying spotlights. We were not allowed to even leave our dressing room until each and every customer was out of the club, the parking lot, and checked to make sure they weren’t “waiting down the street” anywhere. They would search under each of our cars and remain outside watching until every dancer was gone down the highway.
Customers who verbally harassed or attempted to “grab” a dancer was held and removed by THE POLICE and charged on the spot with actual “Assault”. That also applies to customers who try to ask for “special favors” or imply they want to pay you for them. They are also arrested and removed. Any dancer caught doing the same was fired and arrested as well.
Most half decent Employers protect their dancers because they know how important the “bond” the customers form with the girls are for continuing to make money and to get return customers. A club that has a high turnover of dancers or escorts is probably not a reputable one. That means they “turn a blind eye” to other things like drugs and sexual favors and are to be avoided (whether as a dancer or as a customer).
LOL! Well I received yet another email telling me that “Roissy is actually Catholic”….not that I care nor does it matter. Yeah, I think that’s prob where all his hate and bitterness come from: he’s an “average” looking guy, with an “average” looking job, with an “average” life. He knows he’s not the type of guy to “turn heads” and that’s probably where most of his pathetic woman-hate comes from.
Think of the movie “Office Space” and the fat guy with the Swingline Stapler who burns down the entire office and steals the money because he finally snaps and loses it
You seem to have a problem with the very premise of the Roissy blog. It is as if you think you should decide which men date or not.
If you don’t like the author of the blog, and think he was mean to you, that is your business, but why do you and your readers make such a fuss over the status of the Roissy author and the commentors? Whom they sleep with has nothing to do with you.
Patr–
Yes of course I have a problem with the “premise” and the “premise” is not dating.
You can pick up women easily without being hateful, misogynistic, bitter, stereotypical, and manipulative. Roissy’s blog isn’t really about game or even dating….it’s about his personal hate crusade against women. There is nothing about learning “game” that requires being a hateful, disrespectful dickhead. Go read Assanova’s blog. His is about Game and I think his articles are great. His advice is just as sound without even a hint of the psychosis or woman-hate.
I don’t know him and hopefully never will. What I don’t like is him stalking me online to get photos of my kid. Or the fact that he just posted another photo of a (clearly) underaged girl….with a slew of disgusting and descriptive comments about what the men would “do” to the 12 or 13 y/o girl he posted. He’s a very sick man and thinks these sorts of things are acceptable and even funny, but there are some seriously unstable men that read and post over there and putting up pictures of children on your “adult x rated” website is pretty fucking irresponsible. I think he’s a piece of shit that has sleazed it up for too long, is all.
I can’t speak for OTHER commenters, but I think that there are quite a few men on earth and on the internet that really don’t appreciate the behavior of men like Roissy. Guys like him reinforce the (more hardcore) Feminist stereotypes about men (the bad ones) and encourages hating and fighting the opposite gender. How could that be good for men OR women.
Karma’s a bitch!!!
Funny to see all the little boys here crying to protect their friend. LOL.
Can we say “prolonged adolesence”?
I’m glad I’m not them.
Hi Ladyraine, I’m reading Roissy since a few months and I agree with you that he want to take everyone down with him. What Roissy have done is mixing PUA techniques with Men’s Right Activists bullshit. I’m reading shyness/dating forums since a few years and regularly there are MRAs that post there and basically tell male posters to give up about women because all of them are sluts attracted to bad boys. Intrigued by that, I started reading MRAs sites and this is what I discovered about them.
There was a very instructive thread about an MRA on the somethingawful forum http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3225789&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1).The MRA is a creep (he’s fascinated by guys that do date rape)
and he want to outlaw casual sex and impose forced monogamy on everybody (he’s jealous of others that have sex) and claim that he’s the biggest troll on the internet. Many poster in somethingawful think that the guy will kill
someone someday like George Sodini did. From what I’ve read elsewhere there are many MRAs have more or less the same ideas.
I think that most MRAs suffer from Narcissistic personality disorder and have the Madonna-whore complex which means that they cannot love the women they fuck and they cannot fuck the women they love. If a guy has Madonna-whore complex love and sex are completely separated for him. He idealize asexual women that he sees as marriage material and despise any woman that is sexual – that’s why Roissy is constantly encouraging his disciples to find a chaste wife and treat any other woman has a slut. Typically if a guy like that is married, he will stop having normal sex with his wife and abuse her because he will inevitably see her as a slut. Guys like that cannot have any type of normal relationship with women because they don’t see them as human beings. There is a good article about how Narcissists treat women there : http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/6-5-2002-19793.asp.
I’ve read forums about Narcissistic personality disorder and
I’ve read many horror stories about that for example :
http://www.psychforums.com/narcissistic-personality/topic41521.html. Other PUAs are discouraging the Madonna-Whore complex and encourage guys to use PUA
technique to find a girlfriend while Roissy is encouraging the Madonna-Whore complex and misogyny and says that 90% of women are sluts just good for pump and dump.
These MRAs are basically undatable and instead of fixing themselves they blame women and are jealous of other men that have success with women. Since they are nearly asexual with their wife/girlfriend they are obsessed with female
cuckolding and that’s why for MRAs it’s OK for a man to cheat his wife – since he cannot have sex with his wife, he need to have sex with other women. For them men are divided in two : Alpha males that live with a harem of women and that
want to fuck as many women as possible (many MRAs see alpha males as psychopaths because they are jealous of them and are themselve closeted sociopaths) and beta males that are nearly asexual and family oriented (they see themselve as beta males). In their blogs they constantly bash men that have success with women and that’s why they show up in dating/shyness forums to discourage other guys to
have success with women. Roissy is saying the same thing except that he want the betas to become alpha (according to the definition of alpha male of MRAs). That’s why for him an alpha male is a sociopath that trick and abuse women, he has not taken the definition of alpha male of the PUAs, he has taken it from the MRAs. And he’s encouraging the same type of jealousy that MRAs have towards other men, in his case he’s bashing beta males and for him a beta male is any guy that love a woman that Roissy sees as a slut or any man can have normal relationship with women.
I think that originally Roissy was like these MRAs and instead of seeing a shrink, he became a PUA and that’s why his site is different from many other PUA sites.
No more Mr. Nice Guy–
I can tell by your comment that you have been reading the MRA and PUA sites for a long time. It’s weird to me that most PUA’s will (openly) admit that they have MRA ideals and even promote most MRA causes……but then say “OMG we don’t hate women!!! We LOVE women!”
The fact of the matter is that prob the ONLY reason Roissy doesn’t necessarily “stake claim” with the MRA’s is because although he is an idiot….he’s not stupid. I doubt that he could pretend to believe all the MRA stuff any better than he pretends he’s a PUA.
What I am getting at is that I think you are right. I think the idea of PUA/MRA is simply to give future rapists and serial killers an outlet. And hope that they don’t “lose it”.
Most PUA’s and MRA’s are aware that they attract the lowest and sickest of men. Whether intentionally or not. They know that they are getting men who are beyond EVER being happy in a “normal” marriage or a normal LTR with a woman. They want to make women the enemy, but for men like those women were ALWAYS the enemy. Long before any of them actually did anything to deserve the title.
While I occasionally see a poster on those sites that appears “lucid”……the vast majority of them are men who are more than happy to completely give up on being themselves JUST to “get laid” and “get revenge on all those whores”.
These men are the type who would have NEVER been able to have a successful marriage or LTR in the first place. Not with wife number 1, 2, 3, or 10. That’s the issue these PUA’s and MRA’s all have and refuse to admit. There was a problem deep inside of themselves long before they were (allegedly) “abused” by the female gender.
A woman being alive and present on earth is reason enough to hate her (in their minds). You are prob also right on the “Madonna/Whore” thing. They all talk about that particular phenomena all the time and go over it again and again…..and yet not ONE of them has ever seen the irony nor do I think that they ever thought about it introspectively (meaning in the way you describe of them hating women who are or are not whores equally.)
Instead they take it to a dark place in WOMEN. Accuse all females of having this “evil plan” practically since our births. Just lying in wait to trick them into marriage or babies or whatever ridiculous and antiquated accusation they are making THIS week.
Overall, I wouldn’t worry about the MRA’s at all (and I do plan to cover their ridiculous ideals one of these days). They are SO FAR off the “crazy” side that most men (even PUA’s) won’t associate with them. I’ve attempted to post at the Spearhead and ask pointedly what they specifically hate about women and they never have a valid answer. One answer included a man saying:
“Men had to work in mines, die in battle, pay for women and kids, and be treated like shit if they weren’t ‘wealthy’”
I don’t know how he could fail to see that everything he mentioned was BEFORE Feminism and is something that women CERTAINLY did not have the power to have an influence over back then (such as Law and Government) so really none of those things are actually something “women did” to them.
He told me I was a common “shameful whore” and clearly don’t understand their plight.
Hmmmm…..maybe because they don’t HAVE a plight or even a cause. MRA’s don’t even want things to go back to “Pre-Feminism” traditions where men made the money and took care of the family (financially) and where women didn’t have to make a dime and HAD to stay with a man/husband whether she loved him or not.
Even THAT is too much for them. They don’t want women in the homes. They want women in the homes PLUS be sexy PLUS be virgins PLUS do all the money-making, the housework, the child rearing, AND the “paying”…….
While men do nothing more than “spread their seed” and disappear into the night.
I don’t get it. Don’t MRA’s realize we already HAVE those. They are called “Deadbeats”.
This is classic.
Those little ‘tweens at Girl Game could learn a thing or two from you about Real World Game.
If I were wanting to investigate someone, LR – I’d totally hire you!
*Don’t you have something better to be doing at work in Chatswood, Sydney Australia than bothering with little old me?*
Ha. Ha. LR, you are totally rockin’ with this IP address expose.
I’m sure Natalie won’t be back.
Keep it up!
Anyone that brings a child into the “fight”, AND accuses you of illegal activity that could get you arrested, and anyone that defends such person – BOTH deserve to get their’s!
Classic.
Simply classic.
I linked to this blog over at GIRLGAME and that Arab girl with pock marks deleted the link.
classic.
Aiswarya Rai
That’s because “the Arab girl” is practically conjoined at the hip with commenter “Doug” over at Roissy’s who openly extols the virtues of Infidelity in Marriage (on the part of the male only, of course), actually physically abusing women, and feels that men should NEVER be made to pay Child Support or even help to RAISE children with a woman he’s married to.
I ignore Bhetti because she is …..well…..Arabic. She has the equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome like many women do. Her culture implants those seeds that “men are better” and she ends up sympathizing with her “jailors” instead of hating them for what they’ve done.
Women like her really don’t have a clue and I disregard them in the same way as the MRA’s and PUA’s. They’re already a laughingstock amongst MOST educated people whether male or female so we really don’t have to worry that they’ll have an actual “influence”. Think about it…..when has something OTHER than a Cult come out of any group that calls themselves a “Community” like the PUA’s do.
We can only hope they’ll have a Kool-Aid party and eradicate themselves lest they should continue to irritate women at bars, grocery stores, and wherever else they can try out their pathetic “negs” and “qualifying” strategies. (ie: stuff women have known how to do since puberty)
Aiswarya–
And you certainly can!! I do private investigation “on the side” and I have never charged anyone for my “services”. I normally don’t use it to “exact revenge” like on Roissy…..but I DO use it to help people who have gotten screwed by the Law (and it’s loopholes) one too many times.
We all know one of those. The asshole who should have been in Prison 10x and keeps getting off on a Technicality……
That’s when you call me! I’m usually either people’s “best friend” or “mortal enemy”. I don’t mind that it works that way
Thanks for the comment, Aiswarya!
I’ve seen women like her before. You may or may not know this but Arab men put a high premium on looks for their wives. By Arab standards Bhetti is not attractive. Arabs have some of the best looking people in the world in their ranks and many Arab women are nothing short of stunning. Bhetti is obviously not one of them. So by either Arab or mainstream White American standards, she just doesn’t measure up in the looks department.
Nothing wrong with that. I don’t put a premium on looks so it’s neither here nor there for me, as a woman, HOWEVER, what women like her will do to garner male attention is play up to male insecurities.
Obviously men like Doug and others who frequent sites like Roissy’s are suffering deep emotional pangs at their “needs” not being met by women in today’s world. An “exotic” Arab woman with a mystique of “submissiveness” certainly knows how to play into the drama of the deep void that men are currently now feeling.
She will make herself seem like a “breath of fresh air” by being sweet and supplicating to them online while the other women appear harsh or cold or just indifferent.
In this way all kinds of fantasies about the “other” can be nursed in the minds of both the men AND Bhetti (and women like her who play similar games).
It’s the only card she has to play since her looks are not up to par by neither Arab or European standards, and well, being Muslim after 9/11 comes with it’s own complictions.
The online world is full of such fantasy role playing amongst people who don’t have real life relationships. Or sub-par real life relationships.
OH AISWARYA!!! You have just given me a new topic. I went over and had a look at the GIRLGAME BLog and almost died laughing. The female bloggers that joined up and made that blog are all regular female commentors over at Roissy’s Place. They also just so HAPPEN to be linked in his blogroll and he in theirs.
I read like 3 sentences and wanted to vomit. It was like being forced to watch a bad reproduction of “Sex in the City” except without the intellect, without the “sexiness”, and without the interest-level.
The female contributors there are a sad bunch and NOW I get why they came together to make a blog. “Aoefe” is a 40-something single Canadian woman who DESPERATELY wants a husband (and probably some babies) ASAP and by any means necessary. Her blog is all about how she goes on dates every night with “much older” men looking for the perfect man to dominate her. A clear case of “aging and desperate to have a baby before it’s too late” syndrome.
“Bhetti” is an Arab. Let’s face it….whether she’s Americanized or not, her culture preaches that men are meant to be the aggressors and not vice versa (especially in dating/marriage situations). And for the record I agree with you the attractiveness of Arab women. My ex was in combat in Afghanistan and around X-mas the (American) Soldiers would walk around and hand out girly school supplies to the little Arab girls. He also talked about how “They are all so beautiful when they are little girls. Then when they grow up, they seem to be either REALLY pretty…..or REALLY ugly. Either way, you never see the pretty ones because they’re married off with their faces covered by the age of 13.” (What you said sorta reminded me of the bits and pieces of his letters about that kind of stuff).
“LovelySexyBeauty” is openly a whore. She lives for sex and men and sex and men. She’s probably every man’s dream….(unless you want a good conversation, that is).
All of the female contributors there are older and foreign, so I look at that as sort of the “bottom of the barrel” getting together and trying to help Roissy up his blog hits (and theirs as well).
I’m ashamed as a woman to see such piss poor advice on how to handle men in a dating/romantic situation. I have one or two posts about those things but I try not to blog much on “dating and romance” because I know that I have more a “man’s brain” when it comes to things related to sex/romance and thereby I know that “my way” is probably not the way MOST women approach dating.
Hmmmmm…..but I’m thinking about it now that you directed me toward that awful trainwreck of a “Girl Game” Blog. They even speak about “never approaching a man”. OH LORD!!! It’s actually quite easy to “approach a man” and make him think that HE approached YOU.
God, sometimes when I read the drivel that comes from other women I start to understand why some guys are “woman-haters”. Jesus, if I had to read/hear the crap that women like those spout, I’d probably hate women too!!!
You may have inspired another “LR Game” post. Even though last time I got tons of men that are like “WTF!! I’d never deal with this behavior!” (Even though both you and I know that they LOVE that shit.)
Well, Afghanis are not Arabs, but still they can be good looking too. Arabs are usually better looking than Afghanis though.
As far as Girl Game, my observation has been that it is comprised mostly of very young women who have ZERO experience with marriage or LTRs, yet they are dishing out advice to even grown married women as if they are experts!
LovelySexyBeauty is a Desi (East Indian). If you check out her blog she alludes to her virginity, so even though she is all about materialistic stuff like looks and how to attract a man, she has no actual experience with a serious LTR.
She’s typical of many Indian women I know.
Perhaps you confused her with Sofia, another Desi woman that posts there.
LILGIL is another young one. As is Bhetti. Again, no experience with marriage or LTRs. But still dishing out advice on how to “get and keep a man”. LOL.
OK girls, first GET a man, then you can write about that, and maybe 5 years down the line if he is STILL with you – you can write about “keeping” him.
It’s like that one lesbian woman who created a whole blog telling heterosexual women how to get and keep men happy!
What the …..???
She’s another one that the MRA guys love. What’s her blog again – something like “thefeminemasculinist.blogspot” or whatever.
I tell you…..
The only women I will hear male/female “relationship advice” from are women who have been (happily) married to the same man for at least 20 years. Not young, single girls with no experience or lesbians.
Anyway, that’s the glory of the internet. Every nutter and his sister are allowed a forum. LOL.
I’m suprised you’ve not known about “Girl Game” til now.
You’re right, I AM thinking of someone else on the (LovelySexyBeauty) thing…..aggggh it’s on the tip of my brain!!!
Anyway, the point is the same. You’ve got a bunch of ladies…..most of whom have specific cultural influences….most are either single and looking or single and desperate. I’ve already posted on what I think about their “If he doesn’t approach you, he isn’t into you.” post. OMG THE WRONGNESS NEVER ENDS.
I couldn’t believe the idiocy over there! It was the worst advice I have ever read! The very men they worship (PUA’s) employ the “act uninterested” tactic to game women…..and the very women who read PUA sites tell you the opposite???
I really hate it when women give bad dating advice to women that are already (clearly) having a difficult enough time at it. I normally don’t feel compelled to post on romantic issues, but I really am tired of reading really BAD girl-game advice articles and blogs. It’s mostly “stuff women WISH worked on men” and/or “desperate last ditch attempts at getting whatever guy is available” type advice.
I wish they’d just not try their hand at this sort of thing at all. It’s embarrassing as a woman.
Oh, I’ve been subject to hearing what women think is “girl game”…..and usually disregard it and don’t even read it. Most women who blog/give advice on dating are mostly just projecting what they wish was the truth.
Essentially they’re the female versions of Roissy. They’re women who want to take us all down with them…..no thanks ladies, I have my own brand of “girl game”!!!!
“You’re right, I AM thinking of someone else on the (LovelySexyBeauty) thing…..aggggh it’s on the tip of my brain!!!”….
Maybe FeministX. She’s a Desi with a lot of fetishes, but she’s not on the “board of directors” over at Girl Game. Sofia is though, perhaps you were thinking of her.
“You’re right, I AM thinking of someone else on the (LovelySexyBeauty) thing…..aggggh it’s on the tip of my brain!!!”….
Maybe FeministX. She’s a Desi with a lot of fetishes, but she’s not on the “board of directors” over at Girl Game. Sofia is though, perhaps you were thinking of her.
LR EDIT: No, if I recall over at Roissy’s Sofia described herself as a “Brazilian, slender, muscular, supermodel” which means she’s a “fat, old, angry, housewife” in reality.
Nah, Fem X would never post there or contribute because she doesn’t fit into the “over 40, desperate, or foreign” requirements over at GirlGame. Not to mention she’s comfortable with her sexuality and liberal about her bisexuality. Therefore….Fem X has no problem getting laid so she’s considered an “enemy” of the types that swoop like vultures for any available male girls like Fem X have discarded.
“LR EDIT: No, if I recall over at Roissy’s Sofia described herself as a “Brazilian, slender, muscular, supermodel” which means she’s a “fat, old, angry, housewife” in reality.”………
Sofia is a Desi Canadian. She looks anywhere between mid 20s – mid 30s in her videos. She’s neither fat nor old, but she is not a supermodel, that’s for sure. You can check out her blog.
“LR EDIT: No, if I recall over at Roissy’s Sofia described herself as a “Brazilian, slender, muscular, supermodel” which means she’s a “fat, old, angry, housewife” in reality.”………
Sofia is a Desi Canadian. She looks anywhere between mid 20s – mid 30s in her videos. She’s neither fat nor old, but she is not a supermodel, that’s for sure. You can check out her blog.
Hmmm that’s TWO Canadians on ONE girl game blog. Are Canadian women hard up these days or something? Aoefe is always on a desperate “old guy with money” hunt. I don’t get why women need “dating” advice. Any woman that’s even slightly above-average looking can land an attractive, good man.
What the hell is wrong with these women that have to go on a date with a different potential suitor every night to find “Mr. Right”? I know that marriage is important to some women and I respect that, but I don’t get what the “desperation” is with women to have a LTR, affair, marriage etc. We don’t have to be married to have babies now and women aren’t financially desperate anymore, either so what’s the issue?
I have still yet to happen upon this imaginary creature that supposedly exists: A woman that cannot get laid.
I don’t understand why women would need ANY advice on dating men!!! I mean jesus christ, if you show a little titty at just the right moment, you can get a car out of them!! (Metaphorically speaking of course).
It’s not THAT difficult to make a man happy or to keep one, but I personally see no reason why a woman would WANT to keep one long term these days. It’s like having a “backseat driver” in your life just screwing up your concentration and making things more difficult. But that’s just MY reason for not being a fan of LTRs or marriage.
Don’t agree with you about it being easy to find Mr. Right even for an attractive woman. I know both men and women who are very attractive, gainfully employed and smart, yet they cannot find “the one”. That means a “good” man or woman who also fits in with their lifestyle. I see people having problems finding this all the time.
Maybe people are just too picky.
Picking someone up in a bar, yeah that is relatively easy…. but finding “the one” whom you want to spend the rest of your life with……. just a wee bit harder, don’t ya think?
It it wasn’t then e-harmony and other sites wouldn’t be so popular.
Don’t agree with you about it being easy to find Mr. Right even for an attractive woman. I know both men and women who are very attractive, gainfully employed and smart, yet they cannot find “the one”. That means a “good” man or woman who also fits in with their lifestyle. I see people having problems finding this all the time.
Maybe people are just too picky.
Picking someone up in a bar, yeah that is relatively easy…. but finding “the one” whom you want to spend the rest of your life with……. just a wee bit harder, don’t ya think?
It it wasn’t then e-harmony and other sites wouldn’t be so popular.
{how come my comments always get posted way up at 46, and I have to repost down here?}
OH NO NO. I didn’t mean “the one”. I meant to find a “decent” guy. Maybe not “the one” but maybe not “Mr. Wrong” either. It seems like some women (like over at GIRLGAME) are looking for WHATEVER is available…..NOT just for Mr. Right.
That’s the part I don’t get. These girls can’t pick up a “maybe Mr. Right”?? I don’t believe that! Especially when we are talking about “just sex”. That’s something that’s readily available to women for sure.
Mr. Right is not easy for anyone to find, but in my experience….a naturally confident male is much easier to spot than women think. Typically these are the types women think of when they say “Mr. Right”. Usually Mr. Right is just a man that is a good balance of both manliness and compassion…..discipline and understanding….etc (and all the other stuff women croon about). And they’re not as rare as women seem to think they are. It’s a matter of having the confidence (as a woman) to approach a “strong, silent” type of man.
Women tend to either pick the dramatically “manly” man (douchebag kinda “manly” I mean) or the opposite simpering wuss that shares his feelings all day. Neither of which are REALLY what most women like. I think we all would like a balance of both, but few men really ARE confident enough to be that way. Men’s egos are so easily bruised and their pride so easily wounded that it’s hard to find one that ISNT bitter for one reason or another.
“I think we all would like a balance of both, but few men really ARE confident enough to be that way.”……
And therein lies the problem. They are in fact RARE.
But I think it’s easy to “train” a wuss into being the sort of man you want him to be. Easier than training the “bad boy”.
Speaking of Jimmy and the characters over at his blog, what about “dana”. At first I thought she was just the crassy and classeless version of a supplicating Bhetti type, but I’m sure she’s a guy pretending to be a woman. Probably gay too.
Speaking of Jimmy and the characters over at his blog, what about “dana”. At first I thought she was just the crassy and classeless version of a supplicating Bhetti type, but I’m sure she’s a guy pretending to be a woman. Probably gay too.
{ugh. it did it again. posted up at 50 instead of here. had to repost}
Don’t get me started on “Dana”. She literally HATES women of ALL kinds openly….but then in the same breath talks about her “womanly duties”. It’s clear that “Dana” is a man posing as a woman. Either that, or she is REALLY backwoods and really does think that women should marry the first man who asks and dedicate her life to serving him.
She can continue to be alone in that opinion, lol.
Um. I never said I was Brazilian nor a supermodel. Please find the comment. If anything, I never professed my looks to be anything above average. What’s with all the unsolicited hate? I’ve never attacked you and generally disagreed with the overblown attack on you over at Roissy’s. So, what’s up?
Um. I never said I was Brazilian nor a supermodel. Please find the comment. If anything, I never professed my looks to be anything above average. What’s with all the unsolicited hate? I’ve never attacked you and generally disagreed with the overblown attack on you over at Roissy’s. So, what’s up?
Woah, sorry. I didn’t say for sure that I thought it was you. I now know who I am thinking of. It was “Silvia” from over at Roissy’s and clearly you are “Sofia” so that mystery is now solved.
Apparently Silvia is the “Brazilian Supermodel” who likes to do “drive bys” just to attack my appearance and call me a whore randomly.
I apologize for any confusion regarding the Sofia/Silvia mix-up. You are right, I don’t recall you and I ever having any sort of back and forth about anything. My apologies.
*Where the hell is Chic Noir when I need her to remind me of what commentor said what? Dammit!!!*
This is absolutely false.
This is also false.
This is exactly what both posts about approaching/not approaching men talked about. Way to go with the reading comprehension.
False. Do I really need to keep going through this? You’re 0 for 4.
False. There are no pictures of Bhetti on the internet.
P.S. LR: now would be a good time to turn off the “nested comments” feature of your WP blog, so that the conversation is easier to follow.
P.S. LR: now would be a good time to turn off the “nested comments” feature of your WP blog, so that the conversation is easier to follow.
Yeah, you’re right. I hate this theme and wish I had never chosen it because some of the theme settings override everything else. Ugh!!! I will turn it off, though because i meant to awhile ago.
I turned it off now, so it’s likely my blog will be even more difficult to read than usual for awhile now until everyone is used to it.
I hate everything about the appearance and functionality of my theme, I really do.
How can I be 0-4 when most of those comments you are answering aren’t even mine? I don’t know the (specific) info about MOST of the women over there….I am pretty sure I only referenced Bhetti and Aoefe specifically (and then mistook “Sofia” for “Silvia” which was an honest mistake). The other comments were not mine so I really cannot defend them and probably wouldn’t even if they WERE.
(Meaning because pretty much everything on the internet is “hearsay” regarding age, race, preference, looks, and “desperation-level”)
Oh, I wasn’t really talking to you, I was talking to DADT. As I said on the other blog, I have no issues with you, LR. But DADT, or whatever her name is over on this blog, is nothing more than a troll.
It was “this board is 0 for 4″.
Rawr. Defensive, much? It will definitely make the blog more readable (and less confusing).
PS. You can choose another theme.
LR EDIT: *sigh* Yeah I know, I’m just afraid it’ll get worse and things that I had to adjust for this theme will then have to be fixed as well….and I just wish it would magically fix and change itself, honestly. I know my blog is generally hard to read because of the colors, themes, and comments (and my long-winded digressions off into other things don’t help a lot either.)
Although, this:
Is not helping the case.
(LR EDIT: You should know by now which “female bloggers” I’m referring to when I say some of these things. I’m aware of your “tech love” and know that you blog about things you like….I respect that. Some of the others, though….well….they have no business blogging at all, especially about men.)
My comments never show up in the right place and I have to keep reposting them, but let’s see.
Regarding Bhetti’s photo. She may not have a photo online now but what about some months ago on the site that she linked to where she was one of several writers? (might have been her work site). There was a photo of a homely looking Arab girl with bad skin.
Anyway, neither here nor there, really.
As far as everything else, I stand by it. While Lady Raine is under the impression that most of the writers at Girl Game are middle aging and washed up, I know that most of you are young and inexperienced.
Nobody on there has managed to get a man to marry them, what to speak of having “kept” him for at least a decade. We’ve already been through this little LILGIL.
Dating does not count.
Stick to what y’all know and you’ll be just fine: makeup, fashion, shopping therapy, flirting, dating, and short-term-relationships and you’ll be fine.
But stop trying to dish out advice to grown women who are in LTRs, married or divorced.
That’s all I’m sayin’ and that’s all I’ve ever said. No need to get your chaddis in a bunch over it.
Now adjourn your flat booties.
LR
I’ll grant you that he posted photos on his blog and that there seems to be a history of the two of you not getting along. I am new to both blogs so I wouldn’t know the situation. I simply think that you and your readers may put too much emphasis on male status. I am not familiar with assanova’s blog but at least you have a positive opinion of a pua blog; I think there is a reason those blogs exists.
This was not a photo of Bhetti.
Aoefe was in a relationship that lasted 15+ years. I am engaged. I have been in an LTR that has lasted 3+ years (I believe you told LSB, somewhere, to come back in 3 years if she was still dating the same guy).
I believe you have also informed the world (though this could be simply false, as a lot of your claims are) that you have been divorced. Good job, kiddo. Good job.
Haha, you’re such an idiot! Any half-wit can see that our audience is comprised of 99% males and 1% idiot DADT troll.
Well really, the point is that they ladies made a blog about “game” that is focused around backing up Roissy’s theories because his blog is failing, his readers are leaving, and his commentors are less and less.
These girls are “followers of Roissy” and also feed off his blog hits. That much we know for a fact. I would certainly not take advice from women on “girl game” who are giving advice that just happen to back up whatever Roissy and his fans (like LILGIRL’s fiance Epoxytocin, who is a “Roissyist” and Game Enthusiast) are currently spouting.
It’s not really so sinister. It’s a “fake” blog that’s intended to “scratch the backs” of other bloggers for “return scratches”. It’s a great business move if you’re a real blogger, but I don’t really get the point when it’s some of these ladies posting advice.
Single (youngish) ladies with no prospects giving dating advice?
Girls who not only support “Game Theory” but also happen to be victims of it?
Older women with no prospects giving dating advice?
Childless, inexperienced women giving dating advice? (Oh sweeties, you haven’t even managed to talk one into giving you a baby yet, let alone know how to “catch him & keep him”)
The last question is “Who would want dating advice from that group of women?”
…and the answer is: “No one.”
Wait, who is “DADT”? Dammit! Am I the only one who misses all this?
“Aoefe was in a relationship that lasted 15+ years. I am engaged. I have been in an LTR that has lasted 3+ years ”
………………..
Thanks for prooving my point.
Nah, most of us disagree with a lot of what Roissy says. You’re the one who puts him on such a high pedestal as to dedicate multiple posts to him.
Most of our hits come from Chuck, Ferdinand, and Aoefe’s blog, believe it or not. Exactly 0% of our blog hits come from Roissy.
If you upped your reading comprehension, you’d find that my fiance also disagrees with a lot of the things Roissy says, and that he’s generally about 100 IQ points ahead of Roissy.
No offense — really — but I can pretty much guarantee you that I’ve a) been on more dates than you have, even given your age advantage over me, and b) have more prospects than you do.
There is one thing I do agree with you on, and it’s this: much of guy game is what women have known how to do for EVER. Which is why we don’t talk about that. Dude, much of guy game is what people have known how to do forever. Negs? Give me a break. Most third-graders know how to do this. Agree & Amplify? Same deal.
Yes, it’s not a secret. That’s why we don’t talk about it. Nobody really needs to know.
“Aiswarya Rai” is a commenter who has been trolling many forums under various aliases, including “Real Woman”, “DADT”, “D(esi)ADT”, “White Girl”, “Paula’s Naaniji”, etc. That’s all. Hard to keep track of all her crappy identities.
Did you say “White Girl”??? I remember the White Girl character from Roissy’s. That would really surprise me if that is the same poster because (I think) I recall her hating on me pretty openly for calling her a “Coal Burner”. Hmmmmmm….what say you, Aiswarya? I’m impartial at this point, but I do want to know.
Oh come now, you have been around long enough to know that I never “dedicated multiple posts about him”. He posted about me from May of 2009 right up until now and when I FINALLY put up 2 posts about him I’m dedicating my blog to him??? I think you know now you’re just being nasty because your pissed at me.
Oh, now you are just being catty and you know it. I realize that was your attempt to undermine me for being a “single mother” and therefore that (might) give you a dating advantage over me, but the rest of that comment is completely without grounds.
Let’s put it this way. I was already going on “car dates” with boys when I was 13 years old. I could get served in most bars by the age of 15. I did a lot of dating much earlier than MOST women have. And I’ve also dated as a “young and single” woman and also as a “youngish single mother” so I think that my dating experiences are probably more vast than yours whether you care to admit it or not.
However, you cannot say you have “more prospects” without being a smart-ass because you are engaged!!! I give you the points for obvious sarcasm in your statement, though. I have been “engaged” 4 times. I was the one who ended it all 4 times. I can admit that I have a teeny-tiny “commitment problem” but that doesn’t make me any less prepared to offer dating advice (and at least I’m aware of it!)
Patr–
Yes and most of the history of “Why LR hates Roissy” is erased because he removed most of his older posts about me (and my kid).
I am genuinely confused by this statement of yours? What do you mean?
I realize that comment was not directed at me, but I found it to be an odd one. What do you mean by that, exactly? That it’s the usual type of thing (ie: equivalent of men leafing through Cosmo hoping for some secrets about the ladies) or that you are intentionally playing to a male audience?
I don’t particularly have an opinion either way on this argument, but I genuinely am curious as to what you meant?
Hahahahahahahahaha, no no. I’m not saying that your blog is dedicated to him. Just that you talk about him more than we do. Calm yourself. I’m not pissed at you. I really don’t care that much.
Let’s just say that I have a lot of dating experience and leave it at that. No need to go into details. I don’t care what you were doing at age whatever. Like I said — this is not meant to be offensive to you. I don’t have any problem with your being a single mother, or whatever. I do think the guys at Roissy make up a lot of random shit about you for no good reason. I don’t doubt that you’ve have plenty of dating experience, and plenty of man experience, or that you’ve been “going on car dates” since you were 13. I believe that. I do. If I didn’t, well, there wouldn’t be much point in arguing, as we’re on the internet. So I will choose to believe that this is true, if only for your peace of mind.
However. Honey. Look. We live in different worlds. I grew up in the biggest city on earth. I’ve been out clubbing practically every weekend since I was 11. Trust me on this one. This has nothing to do with your being a single mother — I could give a shit. But I know you don’t run in the same circles as I do, or I’d know you. My circles are very small. So yeah. Just go with it. I’m not trying to undermine you — I’m trying to point out that you know nothing about me, and that your statements are completely unfounded.
Most of our audience is male. Give me a break. It is, and we know it. Thus, we’re not writing about the real shit that guys don’t want to know about girls…not yet. We’re waiting until the blog gains readership. Until then, we might as well talk about things the guys are at least semi-interested in, because they’re the ones reading.
I just want to vouch for this:
“Aiswarya Rai” is a commenter who has been trolling many forums under various aliases, including “Real Woman”, “DADT”, “D(esi)ADT”, “White Girl”, “Paula’s Naaniji”, etc. That’s all. Hard to keep track of all her crappy identities.
White Girl commented on a previous iteration of my blog. The IP address is exactly the same as all the sock-puppet entities she creates. If you look at her IP, she should be commenting from somewhere in Florida. I forget exactly where since I disabled the Sitemeter on our website.
As for this:
Haha, you’re such an idiot! Any half-wit can see that our audience is comprised of 99% males and 1% idiot DADT troll.
Because we get our audience from Chuck, Ferdinand, and Aoefe’s blog, we are re-directing the same audience, which is primarily male. Though, again, as someone who can see the Stats counter on our blog, none of the hits we get are from Roissy’s, and we do in fact, take stances in opposition to him and many of his commenters a lot of the time. We are just a fledgling blog, so we haven’t gotten too much into the sort of commonsensical material you’re referring to, as we don’t even have a female audience yet!
(LR EDIT: I suspect that if what you claim is true, I won’t need to check her IP because she prob won’t be back here until she gets a new name again, I’d imagine. I’ve only been hanging around WordPress since last Spring so I really don’t know who and what about most of what goes on blog-blog. I don’t read enough of them to know, either.)
As for why she’s agreeing with you now, the enemy of your enemy is your friend, I guess. Though, to be fair, she’s just a troll, and I can respect you enough to respond to what you’re saying. She spends hours refreshing our blog page looking for something incendiary to say. Whereas, you don’t.
“Let’s just say that I have a lot of dating experience and leave it at that. No need to go into details. I don’t care what you were doing at age whatever. Like I said — this is not meant to be offensive to you. I don’t have any problem with your being a single mother, or whatever. I do think the guys at Roissy make up a lot of random shit about you for no good reason. I don’t doubt that you’ve have plenty of dating experience, and plenty of man experience, or that you’ve been “going on car dates” since you were 13. I believe that. I do. If I didn’t, well, there wouldn’t be much point in arguing, as we’re on the internet. So I will choose to believe that this is true, if only for your peace of mind.
However. Honey. Look. We live in different worlds. I grew up in the biggest city on earth. I’ve been out clubbing practically every weekend since I was 11. Trust me on this one. This has nothing to do with your being a single mother — I could give a shit. But I know you don’t run in the same circles as I do, or I’d know you. My circles are very small. So yeah. Just go with it. I’m not trying to undermine you — I’m trying to point out that you know nothing about me, and that your statements are completely unfounded.”
WAIT. Are you two trying to one up each other in the sluttiness factor? LOL.
Clubbing since 11? And that’s something to brag about LILGIL?
“Most of our audience is male. Give me a break. It is, and we know it. Thus, we’re not writing about the real shit that guys don’t want to know about girls…not yet. We’re waiting until the blog gains readership. Until then, we might as well talk about things the guys are at least semi-interested in, because they’re the ones reading.”
So then LR is right. You are placating men with your blog, and it is a “business strategy” of sorts to get men there. It’s not a blog directed towards helping women at all. That makes sense. Now we can understand why none of the “advice” you y’all dish out makes any sense at all.
Aiswarya Rai –
You also know nothing about me. So suck it.
Ahhhhh I see now. You think I am a “small town girl” from a suburb, eh? Actually I have lived in over 30 different places. Some of them were small towns, yes…..I currently live in a “small town” because it’s best for my son (however not my normal preference).
I spent many years living in a “big city” and even in a bonafied “ghetto” for awhile. I prefer the city and contrary to what you may think, I’ve travelled and lived in many different types of places. I realize that you are younger than I am and think there is nothing outside of LA and NYC and I understand that. But just because as a parent I thought moving to a smaller town was “better” does not make you more sophisticated and wordly than I am, either.
I used to work as a (regular fully clothed) dancer and also a bartender in most of the clubs that are well known in Philly and Atlantic City for most of my younger years (17+ for most big clubs in Philly). I literally worked, lived, and breathed in Nightclubs for most of my young (pre-child) life. This is why I say that although I respect you and your intellect, I also know when someone is trying to patronize me.
If you think the only world I know is some “coddled suburbia” you are sadly mistaken. Again…..you accused me of “thinking I know things about you” and obviously you are guilty of the same thing because many of your “assumptions” about me are clearly wrong.
I know that you are “engaged” to a Desi boy. I was MARRIED to one at your age, honey.
And no, I’d rather not suck it.
Been there. Done that.
Now it’s your turn.
I wasn’t trying to suggest anything sinister in asking you that. I just thought it was a weird statement and genuinely wanted to know what you meant. If I meant something sinister, I’d have accused first and asked later.
LR –
I don’t think you’re a small-town girl or whatnot. I don’t know where you live, or have lived, or whatever. This has nothing to do with that. Reading comprehension over here is dismal. You have probably lived in more places than I have — I’ve only lived (for real) in about 4. Good for you! Yay! I don’t give a shit.
Read this again:
This has nothing to do with being worldly, or living in NYC or LA, or not living in a small town, or whatnot. This has everything to do with socioeconomic class. That’s all. UGH. I am not trying to be patronizing. It’s a fact of life. I don’t care what you’ve done, where you’ve lived, or any of that. I really do not. But, like, thanks for sharing? It’s kind of like if Bill Gates came up to you and said, “I am richer than you.” Would you feel patronized? It’s a fucking fact.
Aiswarya Rai –
He’s about as “Desi” as I am “Asian”. You won’t know what this means, really, but it means you’re an idiot.
I will admit that I thought of that myself.
Seriously, you need to stop reading into things. I’m not trying to one-up you or anything. I just know where I’m at, as compared to the rest of the world.
I understand that the internet is a bad medium in which to communicate such things. But yeah. I mean, part of the reason I’m over here is because you (yes, you, LR) blew up all over our blog for no good reason. We don’t hate you. Honestly, we don’t really care about you. That doesn’t mean we couldn’t like you, if given the chance, but Y SO SRS?! I mean, if you stop listening to trolls, then we’d probably not be all up in a snit.
“I just know where I’m at, as compared to the rest of the world.”
Aww. Aren’t you a special snowflake. Desis like that.
“He’s about as “Desi” as I am “Asian”.
Your attitude is VERY Asian. And your boyfriends demeanor is VERY Desi.
You just can’t see the forest for the trees. But the rest of us, who know where you are at, compared to the rest of the world, can see it.
Now ADJOURN YOUR FLAT BOOTIE I SAID.
Sheesh!
Well she said it best when she mentioned that I’d be a great person to have on your side for “revenge-getting”. So let’s hope IF she is a troll and looking for a (metaphorical) bridge to hide under (here)….she understands that the same revenge applies AGAINST her if she pisses me off with any “trollery”.
Your attitude is VERY Asian. And your boyfriends demeanor is VERY Desi.
God, you’re dumb.
Flat Asian girls who think they are special snowflakes are a penny a dozen in the USA LILGIL. Now listen to massa and ADJOURN YOUR ASS, I said.
LR, I’ve got not axe to grind in terms of “revenge”. I’ve got nothing I need to avenge myself of. Just appreciating your investigative skills.
I also don’t recall ever being your “enemy” over at Roissy’s blog – as far as “coal burning” comment – don’t remember it, or even know what that slang means. Refresh me?
(LILGIL, no more replies to me please. you are turning into “dana” – it’s not all about you, Raj Kumari.)
Woah, what? If I’m not mistaken, didn’t I only post ONE comment EVER on your Game Blog? I never alluded to hating any of you (personally) nor did I say that you “hate me”!
I’m extremely confused by that statement. ONE critical comment and you call that “blowing up all over our blog”? Now THAT is a little over the top and you know it!
As for the “why so serious?”. I’ve admitted it here before on my own blog and definitely other places, too. I come off extremely abrasive, critical, and even snobby in the written form. I’m well aware of this. It’s not because I really am. I have a REALLY strange sense of humor and am sarcastic of being “tongue in cheek” almost 90% of the time. I don’t have this problem IRL so I know that it’s a prob with my “written personality”.
I constantly make off-color remarks, tell shocking stories, and make really racist jokes openly in front anyone I meet. It’s much easier to “get” me IRL and I’ve all but stopped trying to learn to communicate better when “writing”.
AR –
Eh, now I’m just replying to you because you apparently spend a lot of time thinking about me.
It’s kind of sweet.
But also kind of creepy.
*Sigh* it has nothing to do with me being Asian or not Asian. Look, crazy woman, I know where you live.
By “blowing up”, I meant the content of your comment. Not necessarily that you’d posted more than once.
READING COMPREHENSION!!! WHY DOES IT NOT EXIST!!!
LR EDIT: No, it’s because you make things sound much bigger than they are and then backpedal, sometimes.
I’m sure that Roissy must have lots of fun reading this catfight.
Okay fine, LILGIRL. I cannot imagine how me growing up in an upper-middle class White/German area with little or no crime and mostly “well off” people would put me in a “whole separate world” than anyone else on earth….including you.
It’s not like I’m from an African Tribe in Zimbabwe and am trying to compare notes with you. Don’t take YOURself so seriously!
“*Sigh* it has nothing to do with me being Asian or not Asian. Look, crazy woman, I know where you live.”…………
So?!?!
Anyway, I keep telling you to adjourn yourself. That means leave me alone, don’t reply to me, etc.
Just drop it.
sheesh.
*Sweet Jesus. I never thought I’d see the day where a catfight happens here. I don’t even KNOW any women IRL (other than my sister).*
Thanks.
Where’s the cat fight?
I just see an asian trying to get attention from non-asians. nothing new about that.
we offered some constructive criticism of her blog and she couldn’t take it.
i can’t imagine if someone were to tell me “you don’t have much experience with this topic so just stick with what you DO have experience in” that I would take offense or try to pretend that I do have experience.
I’ve been told that i should start my own blog then giving “relationship” advice but even I don’t feel qualified because I’ve not yet been married for 10 years. I’m still navigating this thing called “marriage” – I’m not yet in a position to dish out advice.
But early 20 somethings with zero experience are more than ready to dish it out.
That’s the folly of youth.
AND she’s engaged to a Desi. Same mistake I made when I was young, inexperienced and naive as well.
And EVEN THEN I’m not advising people NOT to do it.
I dunno. Youth today are very pompous.
They will look back after a decade or so, (or a divorce or 2) and laugh at themselves.
Anyway, gotta run.
It’s been real.
Goodnight!
WTF?
lolz. The things I missed lately.
Lady Raine, the Desi geek 5th Horseman claims the photo of Jimmy you have above here is NOT Roissy.
LOL.
A bunny-boiling and disappointing direction, if it creates a trend toward exclusively vanilla blogs and posts because anonymity disappears.
Roissy’s shots were definitely low, and represented an unfortunate departure from a generally entertaining blog, but posting places of employment etc is a whole other ball game.
As for the “Jimmy the Jew” references, along with “I refer to (some) Black People as “nigs”, (#119) it’s probably fairest to say that your idea of what’s acceptable is different to that most others, but it is your blog so your standards I guess.
Roissy willingly offered his photo, first and last name,and blog information to “The Globe” and was interviewed (obviously willingly) for it. Therefore, if he was attempting to remain “anonymous”, then he probably shouldn’t have strutted like a Peacock for the newspaper.
Again, Roissy openly offered the name of his company and even specifically what he does in an article. Guess he should have thought of that too.
LR-
What I mean about everyone being too concerned with status is that you take issue with the Roissy blog as well as the appearance of the author. You criticized his looks and his clothes. It would be the same blog regardless of his appearance.
If men who are not above average in the looks department have nothing to say, no one should be surprised that men “run game”. I view game as a reaction to how women often treat men.
Let me put it this way to you: You know how if you KNOW someone is fat…..you’d still never be rude enough to CALL them fat?
Now if the fat person suddenly starts acting like a dick and calling everyone ELSE fat and treating other fat kids like shit….THEN you will feel totally fine with shouting “Fuck You, Fat Ass!”
Wouldn’t you?
My point is that Roissy spends A LOT of time on his blog putting down other people and dehumanizing them as much as he can. He proudly admits only caring about a (young) woman’s looks and that if “she’s intelligent she loses hottness points”. I’m giving him a bit of a taste of his own medicine.
*I wouldn’t pick on YOUR looks even if I knew what you looked like because YOU aren’t running around putting others down and shaming them for being one thing or another….. then it would just be mean.*
Okay, this blog theme is better because it makes me LESS blind when I go to read it. Nothing pisses me off more than going to a blog/website and it makes me blind to read it…..
I’ve been meaning to change it for awhile, so thanks for reminding me!
“However. Honey. Look. We live in different worlds. I grew up in the biggest city on earth. I’ve been out clubbing practically every weekend since I was 11.”
Such ridiculous arrogance.
lr *Where the hell is Chic Noir when I need her to remind me of what commentor said what? Dammit!!!*
lolrof, apprently a day late. I was too busy to read or post much yesterday. but yea, it’s silvia who you’re thinking of, not Sofia.
lilgrl is pretty easy going too. She recenlty has something of an e-argument with R a few weeks ago. Poetry Of Fleash is pretty gangster, she really went at it with R on the “Hope” (pure BS) post. IIRC, al pulled her e-gun out of her hollister too.
Bonnie got a bit of e-fighting between the girls going but chic noir calmed everyone down. We women need to be united against the bitter beta revolution.
no more mr nice guy Says:
I’m sure that Roissy must have lots of fun reading this catfight.
*points to my right*
No more mr nice guy, not only is roissy enjoying it put check out PA, doug, and Tupac.
*Tupac pops top of can of bear*
*Tupac takes a swallow of beer and yells to the arguing ladies*
Let me know when you’re ready for the baby oil and blow up pool ladies.
I now see this blog as black and gray..
Black as the heart of LadyGrinchRaine
But at least I can read it better ..
According to this;
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/09/25/being-a-beta-is-worse-than/#comment-133110
J. Weidmann is a “white nationalist”.
So how does “jew” fit in with that?
He’s a jew pretending to be a gentile, or what?
He’s not a Jew. Haven’t you read any of the comments not directly related to you?
Roissy would say he was a purple flying monkey if he thought it would get him some attention.
Roissy is Catholic from what I understand. (Yet another email from someone who says they have known him since their youth). The email also alleged that Roissy has always been “questionable” in the minds of people who know him as to whether he’s even straight or not. So apparently he’s a Bisexual Catholic. I don’t even know where to start with that one.
Don’t ask me WHY someone would email me that and tell me that, but the person was like “Roissy is not a JEW!!! He’s a Catholic! And his dad, Ludwig died in 1997! And we always thought Roissy was gay!”
Honest to God, the email was THAT weird and random so I didn’t bother posting any of THOSE findings!
Holy shit! Lady Raine, I thank you. You have balls…for sure!
I kinda think that you dropped the ball here. Calling him Jimmy the Jew hurts your credibility. Also, Roissy is French-Canadian and he rents his apartment. Renting an apartment in your 40s is the equivalent of living in your parents’ basement in your 30s. Hey Roissy, does mailing your rent checks every month make you feel like an Alpha?
LR EDIT: It wasn’t meant to make anyone actually think he WAS a Jew. I’ve explained that several times. Roissy is actually Catholic as far as I know. But he sure reminds of me a Hollywood Jew (in appearance). Yeah, he lives in a condo alone, but most of the other tenants are married (yup I even know the names and status of each and every one of his neighbors….see I told you all I didn’t post the REALLY personal stuff! I’m practically a Saint!)
Since Roissy is a White Nationalist (and usually they’re antisemitic), he must not like it to be called a Jew.
Wait, so Roissy rents at 41 and Roosh lives in his dad’s basement when he’s in the country at 30? Wait…what? And they are advising guys on how to be Alpha??
Yeah, and a few of these “alphas” are even Desis – East Indians. We all know how “alpha” those guys are. LOL.
Clint Eastwoods they are not.
Carl the Catholic,
Peter the Prot,
Harry the Hindu,
Murray the Muslim,
Mike the Morman,
Buddy the Buddhist,
None of these seem problematic to me. So why are people so worried about Jimmy the Jew?
LR EDIT: I’m still trying to figure out why “Jew” is offensive now. Isn’t that like being offended by “Catholic” or “White” or “Mexican”. I mean….if you are Jewish….you’re a Jew! What’s to be offended about. I cannot stand the whole “PC” thing and that people actually feel ASHAMED when someone busts them on not being PC. Yes, because remember we are all supposed to be ASHAMED of who we are, where we come from, and the weaknesses we can see in others.
It’s a dangerous world when we aren’t allowed to laugh at ourselves and others without it being “offensive” and “serious”. They might as well shoot themselves now because they have forgotten how funny life and humans can be.
Yeah, especially when over at Roissy’s blog there was no dearth of slurs against any and all ethnic groups and religions.
Guess they can dish it out, but can’t take it.
LR EDIT: That’s obvious by Roissy’s henchmen refusing to allow my blog to be linked in ANY way because it contains “personal info”. Yeah right. But those same people will link to Roissy’s blog that contains slander, personal photos, slurs, and of course pictures of minors on a sex site. They’ll support THAT…..but not “personal info”, lol.
It’s a simple matter (just like GG saying they removed links that people posted to my blog for the same reason. Then link sites like Roissy’s and others that promote abusing women, infidelity, and even “girls being ripe for sex at age 14″ as he’s said himself).
When you wrap all those bullshit excuses and whining into what the TRUTH is it’s this: “WAAAAAH you made our Saviour and our “Christ” look like the douchebag sally-girl that he is and we’re embarrassed that we followed him for so long like a God when in reality he’s just another dork living in momma’s basement all alone and filled with self-hatred”
To Anoukange : A few months ago, I was discussing with an MRA on a shyness forum. He was 40 years old, living with his mother, never had a girlfriend and only had sex with prostitutes (and he was probably dominated by his mother) and was constantly complaining that women were rejecting him. I was explaining to him that he need to move out and be independent if he want to find women then another MRA came in the discussion and told me that it’s normal for a man to stay with his parents. It’s fascinating to see momma boys that want to restore patriarchy.
It is FAR from normal for boys/men to live with their parents. Even if they have never been married and have no kids or anything….if they’re done college and STILL living in your home, you are HURTING them….not helping them.
The ridiculous coddling of boys these days are 90% of the problem with modern men and with modern “entitlement complex”. Men living at home in ANY capacity keeps them as teenagers mentally. They have NO grasp on what real bills are, real problems, real life…..they see only whatever they saw as boys in High School. It’s often mothers that are guilty of raising these kinds of men.
You CANNOT coddle boys the way you can coddle girls. You must be tough to some degree on growing boys and teach them respect and discipline. I personally think EVERY boy can gain something from attending Military Academy. As a single mother, I know that the day will come when my son will tower over me and tell me something and my heart will melt and I’ll let him get away with that. That’s the moment when the mother STOPS helping and starts “enabling” your boy to be lazy, irresponsible, entitled, and lacking respect for authority (bosses, elders, etc.).
I have already (pre-enrolled) my son in the Valley Forge Military Academy and hopefully he will attend starting in the 6th grade right up until Graduation. I believe strongly that growing boys need FAR more discipline than most parents offer. Whether both parents are present or not. I believe in “You have to tear them down to build them back up” and I’m tired of seeing this pussy-ass liberal parenting where you give your kid a cookie everytime he wipes his own ass.
This is how society has fallen into the muck it already is today. Entitlement and coddling of BOTH genders as children. I don’t believe in Corporal Punishment, but I DO believe in “tough love”.
Grrrr sorry you got me all fired up about today’s weak men.
You’re right to raise your son to be independent. In shyness/dating forums the guys that have the most trouble finding women (and the oldest virgins) are the guys that are still living with their parents or lived too long with their parents and other posters try to help them by telling them to move out.
I’m sure that many MRAs and Roissy’s poster have lived too long with their parents or are still living with their parents and Roissy is just encouraging their delusions and ignorance. Many specialists think that the Madonna-whore complex that Roissy is constantly talking about is caused because guys that suffer from it want their girlfriend to be a substitute for their mother.
There is a group of mentally ill guys that created a movement called “True Forced Loneliness” and they say that women are conspiring to prevent them from finding a girlfriend, one of the founder weight 500 pounds live with his parents and the other is an psycho redneck that said that women deserve to be killed and raped and he too lives with his mother. These guys created a huge collections of videos on Youtube where they were saying insanites.
LR EDIT: That’s exactly what I mean. I’m not putting those mothers down, they are doing those things because they love their sons so much. But the problem is that you CANNOT do that with boys. You HAVE to put your motherly urge aside and remember that “enabling” them to be weak, to be unmotivated, to be coddled and entitled….is putting them at a huge disadvantage. They have to learn to live a man’s life and they cannot move on to that point if they are still under mama bird’s wing. Parents forget sometimes, that their job is to love them and prepare them for the world. Not to hide them from it and keep them close because it makes YOU feel better.
Lady Raine:
Might I point out to you that it is far more common in Italy and other places in Europe for children to live with their parents well into their twenties and thirties? This is partly because finding beginning level job openings is very hard in countries that have high barriers for job loss/job entry.
Such things were and are common in both the past and in other countries around this globe. Ever heard of “extended family”? There’s nothing wrong with it per-se if the economic conditions do not support single family households and if you live in an area where either jobs are scarce or affordable housing (such as apartments or small homes) is absent. Why do you think so many illegal immigrants in this country live in multi-person households? It’s because our damn housing prices even after the burst of the bubble are insane – and it’s even worse in DC or a place like NYC.
In the past one might live on his father’s land or nearby. Children and adults were more useful to the extended family then being able to help farm or build or otherwise keep up their parents and relatives properties and businesses. I see nothing wrong with it per-se. Just make sure so and so earns his keep. That’s responsibility.
LR EDIT: Yes, that’s true Clarence but you are talking about “multi-family” households. Not a grown man living OFF of his extended family. There is a VERY large difference. The situation you are referring to is much like my own. My sister and I decided it was dumb to continue to live in separate homes….and still go to see each other every single day….it was dumb and uneconomical, so we got a very large house together. But the two individual families are not living OFF of each other. Just sharing the responsibilities.
A grown man who is living in his parents basement or living off their money is NOT the same at all. The households you are referring to are individual families…..residing in the same home and taking on group responsibilities. A grown child at home and not going anywhere anytime soon is what I’m referencing here and (imo) it’s a VERY different thing.
Roissy IS a Jew.
Other modern proponents of ‘Game’ have also been Jews.
‘Game’ is the flipside of Jewish feminism — Jew-invented feminism has undermined and corrupted White-Western women, whilst ‘Game’ undermines and corrupts White-Western men.
It’s true. Throughout most of the world many adult children still live with their parents until marriage, and in South Asia (of which India is a major part), the male adult children live with their parents even AFTER marriage and bring their wives home to live with and slave for her in-laws.
Indian male infants NEVER have their umbilical cords cut.
The only way to get with an India guy is if his parents are DEAD
Thank you for exposing this violent misogynist. I’ve asked the DC police to arrest him for inciting felony sexual and physical assault against women with his comments encouraging men to “cum in her mouth and then hold her mouth closed” and to “hit women and have them not call the police.”
He is a vile and violent person who is doing a grave disservice to the misguided men who follow him and to any women who encounters him and the men he “teaches”.
For him and his posters to hide behind anonymity is unacceptable. If they’re so proud and unashamed of the violence they preach and allegedly practice, let them use their real names.
*LR kicks back, put her feet up on the desk, smiles smugly…..and waits for the fruits of her labor*
I think you know that will never happen. Even though they are told that women WANT to be treated like shit and that “normal healthy relationships” involve trickery, manipulation, power-plays, control issues, and abuse…..they still won’t OPENLY put their names on the Game they play. That’s because as we know, the unconscious mind is a very powerful thing that we cannot control even with our own lies. Their unconscious continues to scream “NO!!!” even while their minds, bodies, and voices are yelling “Yes!”
Each time these guys trick a woman into having sex with them, dating them, or even marrying them…..they see it as a VALIDATION that Game is true, correct, and works. Sadly, all it is validation of is that they are men who are lacking in communication skills, severely deficient in self-esteem, and completely lacking in human respect and morals enough to get a “good woman” the honest way.
The teachers of Game KNOW this. They KNOW that eventually a man MIGHT question Game and say to himself “Wait, why is it that I have to ALTER myself and be a fake and manipulative person to get a “good woman”?”
Game has provided them the easy answer to that already: “Because there is NO SUCH THING as a “good woman” and therefore the ENDS very much justify the means.”
Mr. M is an instructor at LoveSystems, which claims to distance itself from the misogynistic side of the PUA spectrum, and yet he would buy Roissy drinks!
Mr. M is a closet Roissy-lover!
So, Mr. M., do you or do you not endorce Roissy’s violence against women? And do you or do you not teach such things to your LoveSystems students?
I say Nick Savoy and LoveSystems need to be exposed as much as Roissy does. I say Mr. M and the other LoveSystems boys need to be exposed as well.
Why not, boys? Aren’t you proud of what you do for a living?
Perhaps Ms. Romano would be less concerned with Roissy if she had a prettier face and a smaller waist?
LR EDIT: WOW. That says it all. It couldn’t be that women don’t WANT to be lied to, abused, and manipulated. It couldn’t be that Denise has a fucking DEGREE in the very same Psychology that you claim to be masters of…….it’s that ALL WOMEN who disagree with you are “fat, ugly, bitter, man-hating, hardcore Feminists” right?
Seeking Alpha, every semi-intelligent thing you have ever said was completely eradicated by that ONE obviously juvenile, obviously unintelligent silly insult. If you want to discredit a Professional in Psychology…..you may want to actually want to attack her credentials, her points, or even the facts she presented. Instead you attempted to insult her appearance which means that you don’t have even ONE bit of FACT to detract from her very solid argument.
Nice job, PUA’s everywhere look incredibly uneducated, irrational, and delusional because of you, Obsidian, Roissy, and (what I’m guessing is) many others just like you.
Dana at Jimmy’s is definitely either a man pretending to be a woman or a woman who has been brainwashed since birth about her role as a biologically determined submissive or she is a hostage in a shed in jimmy’s backyard with a gun to her head.
and yes! brilliant observation about the MRAs and PUAs similarities and the whole madonna/whore complex!
Additionally, I will take it a step further and say that not only do most PUAs have narcissistic personality disorder, but their entire PUA/MRA (non) “thinking” is one huge reaction formation.
For those who don’t know, a reaction formation is a kind of defense mechanism. As proof, one PUA on jimmy’s blog stated that “women made him into a PUA”. He once wanted love and marriage but the poor boy got hurt and so his reaction was not to learn more, become a better person, see a good therapist, read any of the many credible sources that exist on how to be a healthy man in a healthy relationship – but to adopt PUA/MRA theories and behaviors to justify his own psychological and emotional stuntedness.
So sad. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
LR EDIT: Yes, Dana clearly hates herself and everything that makes her a woman which is really sad. I would never EVER want to be anything other than a woman for even one day. I think it’s sad that she married what is clearly an abusive brainwasher who taught her that she is “nothing without him”. This is essentially the main force behind what abusers, criminals, and PUA’s “practice”.
Here are some credible resources to send to all the MRAs and PUA/MRA hybrids:
Jane Doe Inc. ● 14 Beacon Street, Suite 507, Boston MA 02108 ● 617-557-1802 ● http://www.janedoe.org/whiteribbonday
Selected References:
Fatherhood:
http://www.mctf.org/sp.aspx?id=68 – Statewide responsible fatherhood project in Massachusetts
http://www.allmenaresons.com – John Badalament’s work.
http://www.dadsanddaughters.org – Dads and Daughters
Diverse Cultures:
http://www.dvinstitute.org – Institute on Domestic Violence in the African American Community
http://www.dvalianza.org – National Latino Alliance for the Elimination of Domestic Violence
http://www.nationalcompadresnetwork.com – Latinos network
http://www.msh-ta.org – Mending the Sacred Hoop Technical Assistance Project
Men’s Services and Activism:
http://www.whiteribbon.com – White Ribbon Campaign (Canada)
http://www.mijd.org – Men’s Initiative for Jane Doe Inc.
http://www.mrcforchange.org – Men’s Resource Center for Change (Amhest, MA)
http://www.strongmendontbully.com – Gloucester Men Against Domestic Violence
http://www.mencanstoprape.org – Men Can Stop Rape (D.C.)
http://www.emergedv.com – Emerge Batterers Intervention Program (MA)
http://www.nomas.org – National Organization of Men Against Sexism
http://www.mensresourcesinternational.org – Men’s Resources International (MA)
http://www.endabuse.org/cbim – Coaching Boys into Men
Male Survivor:
http://www.gmdvp.org – Gay Men’s DV Project
http://www.malesurvivor.org – Support and advocacy for male survivors of child sexual abuse.
http://www.barcc.org – Boston Area Rape Crisis Center
Teen Action and Engagement:
http://www.violencepreventioneeek.org – annual teen awareness week
http://www.nationalsave.org – teen action organization
http://www.reachoutnh.com – resources
College Campus-Based Groups:
http://www.students.haverford.edu/masar/front.htm – Men Against Sexual
Assault and Rape
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~osapr/ – Harvard Men Against Rape, Harvard University
ase.tufts.edu/womenscenter – Tufts Women’s Center – Men’s Activist Coalition
http://www.oneinfourusa.org – One in Four
Books:
Badalament, John. The Modern Dads Handbook (Cole Valley Mill, 2007)
Bancroft, Lundy. Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. (Putnam Publishing, 2002)
Canada, Geoffrey. Fist, Stick, Knife, Gun (Beacon Press, 1996)
Funk, Rus. Reaching Men (Jist Publishing, April 2006)
Katz, Jackson. The Macho Paradox (Sourcebooks Trade, 2006)
Kivel, Paul. Men’s Work – How to Stop the Violence That Tears Our Lives Apart (Hazelden Publishing 1992)
Magazines & Listservs
Voice Male, published by the Men’s Resource Center for Change (Amherst, MA)
http://www.vahealth.org/civp/sexualviolence/listserv.asp — National Listservs
Looks like Savoy linked to you too (and not at all kindly):
http://therealsavoy.blogspot.com/2009/12/crazy-lady-returns.html
LR EDIT: Awwwww…..that’s cute that yet another Blogger whom I’ve never heard of, have never read, and have never had a conversation with has linked me. All the attention is really rather sweet…..but I’m concerned for their delicate egos if ONE post by some random woman on the internet is enough for them to feel that they have to link me, talk about me, and try to discredit me. Furthermore, they have to attack Denise for publicly stating that “both men and women should be held to the same standards and expectations.”
Bloggers like those are just bottom-feeders who have no content of their own to post and therefore just bite off OTHER bloggers controversial topics. I wish they’d just learn that all they have to do is blog about things like gender issues, politics, or religion if they are so desperate to get “controversy-related blog hits”.
(The funniest part to me on is that they actually linked me as “having deep psychological problems” due to my posting about the amazing technology of German U-Boats???? Yes, I think we can all see how that is totally related to my OBVIOUS war against men and for Feminist values. *sarcasm intended*)
That means we make them nervous. They should be
Wipe your tears, gentlemen…..this is child’s play thus far for me. Keep it up and I WILL “dedicate my blog” to exactly what they are accusing me of.
Additionally, I will take it a step further and say that not only do most PUAs have narcissistic personality disorder, but their entire PUA/MRA (non) “thinking” is one huge reaction formation.
Replace ‘PUA’ with ‘feminist’ and that sentence would be accurate.
Feminism is the purest form of projection I have ever seen.
LR EDIT: The only problem is that I never mentioned Feminism…..I am not a “Feminist” (at least not in the imaginary terms that you are representing them) …..have no “Feminist Agenda” nor have ever extolled the ridiculous rantings of ANY “hardcore Feminist” here or anywhere else.
Therefore, the only reason you said that is because you are lacking in even the most basic “facts” to back up any argument made by me, Denise, Desi, or anyone else who has pointedly attacked the principles of Game with actual Psychological FACT.
I have never and will never “extol” hardcore Feminists who wish to emasculate men, victimize women, or manipulate the system, so I don’t know why you’d even make such a silly unrelated statement.
“Additionally, I will take it a step further and say that not only do most PUAs have narcissistic personality disorder, but their entire PUA/MRA (non) “thinking” is one huge reaction formation.”
Denise,
Many of these types additionally are *sex addicts*, where, as it is well-known, one does not actually have to be engaging in the act itself to qualify one as an addict.
The obsessive and compulsive thinking and dwelling on sex and using/manipulating others for one’s own pathological ends is qualification enough.
I always suspected that ‘Roissy’ fell in to this unfortunate category (goodness grief, someone can do a PhD dissertation just by studying this guy alone).
LR EDIT: These men are no different than the members of a cult. They genuinely DON’T see what is incredibly ABnormal about their behavior. They have been *cough, cough Obsidian* BEHAVIORALLY CONDITIONED to ONLY see bad in others and ONLY see good in themselves.
Yes, I think that sex addiciton is probably rampant in the PUA community.
However, there is also a very disturbing misogyny. Weidmann says on his blog that “women’s suffrage was the worst thing to happen to this country”.
To all Men:
If you are a man who respects women, then speak out against PUAs like Roissy in D.C.: http://www.ladyraine.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/exposed-roissy-in-dc/.
Just a note on Lady Raine’s blog: she refers to Roissy as “Jimmy the Jew”; I’m not sure why – though from having read the many anti-semitic posts on Roissy’s blog, I believe Lady Raine is intentionally making a mockery of Roissy’s blog.
LR EDIT: I thought that would be obvious to anyone who has read at Roissy…..and yet apparently you are one of two people to get the joke.
I do not advocate anti-semitism or any form or hatred based on identity, which is what Roissy and other PUA and MRA blogs do advocate. I believe the hatred of women spread by the PUA industry is just as harmful as what the KKK does.
For those who think it is unfair to expose James C. Weidmann as the misogynistic “Roissy in DC”, consider this: James C. Weidmann’s job is to investigate and expose white collar crime – as in financial fraud.
So, why does he encourage men to emotionally and psychologically defraud women in any way they can? As far as I’m concerned, the latter is just as harmful and criminal – if not moreseo.
Since posting about the misgynistic snake oil sold by the PUA industry to misguided men, I’ve gotten fascinating emails from Weidmann defenders saying things like this to me:
-that I’m bitter because I’m not attractive enough to breed (untrue).
-that I must be fat and ugly (also untrue).
-that I want to mooch off of men (also untrue).
-that I have double standards for men and women (absolutely untrue – in fact I think men and women need to be held to the same relating and behavioral standards!)
There have also been comments left containing the alarmist and inaccurate propaganda of the MRA arm of the PUA industry:
-that at least 50% of relationship violence is committed by women against men (Untrue).
-that LoveSystems is not misogynistic (though LoveSystems instructor Mr. M enthusiastically agrees with Weidmann.
-that women want to be choked during sex (untrue).
-that there is such a thing as the “female brain” (there isn’t – though there is such a thing as the HUMAN BRAIN.
I agree with LR – let the PUA and MRA boys tattoo a giant L on their foreheads if they refuse to join the rest of us in the Human race.
LR EDIT: Yes, even though Neuro Science AND Psychology have PROOF that there is no difference in the actual FUNCTION of a male vs. female brain will somehow not make it into the conversation because if they admitted that…..they’d have to admit that they’re victims of the very same brainwashing they are USING ON the women they are Gaming. Although it’s their “just desserts” for manipulating other human beings…..it doesn’t make it right.
Ah well….I’m glad it’s THEM paying the Salesmen of Game and not me, at least!
Oh “Tongs” – yes I’m sure that’s your real name. Thanks for your many anonymous comments on my website.
Do tell us what definition of feminism you’re using so we can understand your expert opinion on projection.
Do also explain how expecting men and women to be held to the same standards behaviorally and in relationships is having a “double standard”.
What terrible hurt have you suffered that has caused you to embrace and defend men like Jimmy Weidmann, who advise men to sexually and physically assault women?
There are many women who have been violently raped who do not turn into humans who hate men. In fact, approximately one in three US women are raped – yet with the help of good therapy most are able to recover and have healthy, excellent relationships with men and not hate all men.
What terrible trauma have you and Jimmy W. suffered that makes you believe that “hurting people is fun” and that women should not vote?
I am sorry for your pain and I hope you recover with the help of a qualified therapist. You do realize that hating all women in this way is not psychologically healthy, right?
You do realize that you can choose to be a healthier man and have amazing relationships with amazing, wonderful, healthy women who do not want to mooch off of you, right?
Imagine dating a woman with whom you can relax, be yourself, be liked and enjoyed for yourself, be respected, have great fun, and also have great sex! That is what it’s like to date a healthy woman!
Imagine not having to learn an entire ridiculous language and have to constantly scheming in your head and denying your real feelings when you really like a woman!
Of course in order for this to happen, you have to be a better man. You have to respect women. You have to realize that women are not your enemy, and you have to develop excellent emotional and psychological health, communication skills, sexual intelligence, and something called “empathy”.
What is so tragic as we watch you poor boys spend all of your disposable income on PUA products and services and “secrets” is that you could learn how to be healthier for much less money and in much less time.
And those of you who don’t get this will find yourselves bathed in shame as you one day realize that the last thing a woman wants is a PUA and the second last thing a woman wants is a man who is a former PUA or who was misguided enough to actually spend money on such hateful snake oil.
So, all you anonymous boys, be men! Use your real names! Tell us who you are! Tell us what really hurt you and we’ll be compassionate.
But, continue this PUA crap, and we will continue to pity you.
LR EDIT: This is what I mean when I say that “PUA’s are essentially validating the claims of the most extremist Feminist Groups around.”
They don’t realize that Game is making them voluntary lifetime victims. It is reducing them to their animal urges. It makes them ACT like exactly the “drooling, sex-obsessed, rapists-in-waiting” that the hardcore Feminists wish all men really are.
I think deep down most men are good, honorable, and kind. Those men (or women) WILL find love if they realize that making a bad choice once or twice in selecting a partner, making a bad move yourself, and even admitting your faults are NORMAL things to discover about yourself. And that they do NOT mean you are “unworthy of love” unless you manipulate someone.
These guys are happily sitting in the “victim’s seat” for life just like the hardcore Feminists they allege are guilty of the same.
Don’t they see the obvious?
You’re doing commendable work Denise in exposing these anonymous creeps, and especially in informing the DC police force about Roissy, with the help of the info provided by Lady Raine here on her blog.
Karma’s a bitch!
All that negativity (negging?) is coming back to bite Rosie Dearest in the ass.
He dug his own grave on this one, now he has to lie perish in it.
Your point about these men using pseudonyms (fake names) in place of real names is on point.
Why is it that they want to remain anonymous while people like you, with legit blogs and advice, are open and transparent with regards your identity? What is it that they are afraid of? What are they ashamed of?
The PUA community advises men to create a new sort of identity for themselves, along with silly names like “Savoy” … “Mystery”… or other corny one word cliches that are somehow supposed to make them feel different and transform their consciousness.
It’s a riot.
The only damage this PUA movement is doing though is to the naive and sex-starved men who sign up for their b.s. hook, line and credit card.
It’s literally zapping them of thousands of dollars and leaving these poor dudes even more confused than they went in.
I don’t think it’s doing any real harm to women though, and that’s the irony of it.
Adult women cannot be exploited. Any woman who goes home with any guy she meets in a club or bar knows exactly what she’s signing up for, and it’s not a committed relationship.
I think the most damage the PUA movement is doing, is to the bank accounts of lonely dorks.
Poor things.
LR EDIT: Slam dunk, Desi. One should ALWAYS question when the ONLY source of your “facts” comes from anonymous bloggers, PAID REPRESENTATIVES (like Mystery or Style), and the claims made by the common man extolling the virtues of a “Game” that they clearly don’t even understand the basic rules of.
You’d think a few of these guys would say “Hmmmm….how come the ONLY sources that back up my belief in Game are the ones who are PROFITING from my blind belief in them?” and “How come the people who OPPOSE Game are willing to offer MEDICAL AND SCIENTIFIC FACT about the human mind for FREE with their names and credentials (if applicable) attached to their opinion without hiding their true identities like the Gamers do?”
These guys might as well be signing their name on a paper that says “Even the radical feminazi’s now have a valid argument against men as a gender.”
Since the subject here is “exposes”, watch these videos from TO CATCH A PREDITOR, the NBC Dateline Series on stingray operations set up to catch older guys online meeting kids as young as 13 for sex. Worthy of mention is that more than just a few of these guys are Desis (South Asians, Indo-Paks).
To see these grown omega men tremble in fear, break down and cry, blubber all over themselves and the screen when they get caught is a RIOT.
Really, one dude who knelt down and begged for pardon almost had me in tears. The rest of them just had me in stitches lmao.
Karma’s a bitch.
Just like with these dudes, there’s alot of online posturing on Rosie’s and other PUA blogs. But when the shit hits the fan, they all break down and cry.
Anyway, check out the vids:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14960266/
LR EDIT: HA!!!! That’s one of my all time favorites. It blows my mind that those predators are totally AWARE of the show, KNOW the host, recognize the “set up”……and STILL show up to be busted on t.v. for being a sick and depraved predator.
It just goes to show that a deeply disturbed individual truly CANNOT help themselves even when all signs point to “Duh, dude you’re being set-up.”
I can GUARANTEE that there are men out there who are saying “What’s the big deal if she’s a minor? She/he is still ‘ripe’ for sex so that means that they are not sexual predators!” And then will attempt to validate WHY it’s okay by listing obscure and antiquated civilizations and cultures that have nothing to do with the modern world that we live in, our culture, or even our laws as they stand. That’s what the PUA Community is famous for. Using sketchy, weird, and obscure beliefs of OTHER cultures to make what they do (such as encouraging abuse of women and sex with minors) to be “morally acceptable”.
The seven-stage hate model: The psychopathology of hate groups
FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin/March 1, 2003
By John R. Schafer, MA and Joe Navarro, MA
The Hate Model
The manifestations of hate are legion, but the hate process itself remains elusive. Limited research in this field precluded the development of a comprehensive hate model. Understanding hate groups is essential for the development and implementation of successful intervention strategies, which depend on an understanding of the hate process. The proposed hate model consists of seven stages, including how hate groups define themselves, how hate groups target their victims and taunt them with verbal insults and offensive gestures, and how hate groups attack their victims with or without weapons.1
Definition of Hate
Hate, a complex subject, divides into two general categories: rational and irrational. Unjust acts inspire rational hate. Hatred of a person based on race, religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or national origin constitutes irrational hate.
Both rational and irrational hate mask personal insecurities. Everyone experiences personal insecurities in varying degrees throughout their lives. The more insecure a person feels, the larger the hate mask. Most people concentrate on the important issues in life, such as earning a living, rearing a family, and achieving personal goals. These pursuits give meaning and value to life.2 Nonetheless, irrational hate bleeds through day-to-day activities in the form of racial barbs and ethnic humor. Not all insecure people are haters, but all haters are insecure people.
With respect to rational hate, haters do not focus as much on the wrong done to them or others, but, rather, on their own helplessness, guilt, or inability to effect change. The object of rational hate often is despised or pitied.3 In the same way, irrational hate elevates the hater above the hated.4 Many insecure people feel a sense of self-worth by relegating a person or group of people to a lower status.5
Skinhead Groups
During a 7-year FBI investigation of skinhead groups in Southern California between 1992 and 1999, specific patterns emerged. Skinhead groups typically consist of uneducated, young, white males between the ages of 13 and 24 who have no long-term prospects for success. Although many come from single-parent, dysfunctional families, some exceptions exist. For example, members of the Western Hammerskins in Hemet, California, had high school educations and came from two-parent, middle-class families. Further examination revealed that both parents made long, daily commutes to work in Los Angeles and left their teenage children unsupervised. The lack of parental supervision and guidance spawned personal insecurities similar to those found in skinheads who come from dysfunctional, single-parent environments.
Fortunately, most skinhead groups are not well organized and lack the leadership structure found in the majority of street gangs engaged in “for-profit” criminal activities. However, the Western Hammerskins group has a stronger leadership hierarchy than most skinhead groups, and it boasts a very active recruitment program. Potential members receive a recruitment package, which includes a swastika armband, a T-shirt with white supremacist slogans, white supremacist literature and band stickers, and other supremacist materials. Recruiters also pass out business cards embossed with the Western Hammerskins’ logo and the recruiter’s name and telephone number. The group’s higher educational level may explain the sophistication of its recruitment techniques.
Skinhead groups subdivide into two categories: criminally motivated and hate motivated. Criminally motivated skinhead groups spend most of their time engaged in for-profit criminal activities, such as drug sales and burglaries. Incidental to their criminal activity, they commit hate crimes. The San Fernando Valley Peckerwoods (SVP) in California was a criminally motivated skinhead group. SVP members primarily sold methamphetamines and committed residential burglaries. Periodically, SVP members attacked minorities with weapons and, on one occasion, placed packages resembling bombs near an apartment complex where African-Americans lived. Members intended for the fake bombs to frighten current residents to relocate and to discourage other African-American families from moving into the complex.
Conversely, hate-motivated skinhead groups dedicate the majority of their time to hate crimes.6 Incidental to hate crimes, these hard- core skinheads commit petty thefts or sell small amounts of narcotics to support daily needs, such as food, cigarettes, and alcohol and other drugs. The Nazi Low Riders (NLR) skinhead group located in Lancaster, California, exemplifies a hate-motivated skinhead group. At one time, NLR members spent their time prowling the streets of Lancaster looking for minorities to attack. The NLR matured to the point where their members routinely beat and stabbed minorities, and, in one instance, murdered an African-American.
Haters cannot stop hating without exposing their personal insecurities. For example, at the onset of the FBI investigation, FBI authorities told hard-core members of the NLR that they would arrest them if their hate violence continued; yet, the hate violence persisted. The FBI similarly warned the members of the SVP who, however, stopped or were more surreptitious concerning criminal activities, and their hate violence ceased. The reaction of the SVP members comported with general criminal deterrence literature. The reaction of the NLR members did not, however, because hate, not criminal acts, was their primary motive.
Interviews of both criminally motivated and hate-motivated skinheads may explain this phenomenon. Criminally motivated skinheads identified themselves as criminals first and haters second. They also expressed a degree of personal security in their status as criminals. The criminally motivated skinheads possess a certain sense of self-worth; hence, they have fewer insecurities. However, this was not the case with hate-motivated skinheads. The explanation by one 15-year-old NLR member typified the thought process of hate-motivated skinheads. He said, in effect, “I dropped out of school in the eighth grade, but I stopped learning midway through the sixth grade. I covered my body with hate tattoos. I couldn’t get a good job if I wanted to. No one would hire me. Once, I tried to get a job at a fast food restaurant, but the manager refused to hire me because the restaurant served multiracial customers. If I quit being a skinhead, I have nothing. I am nothing. I have no choice but to be a skinhead. I expect to die a young, violent death.”
Skinheads converge, get drunk, take drugs, and, at some point, spontaneously seek out hate targets to attack. They conduct little, if any, planning before committing hate crimes. One hate-motivated skinhead put it best when he stated, “We don’t look for trouble but somehow trouble always finds us, and we’re ready to deal with it when it comes.”
The Hate Model
Several academic authorities on hate crimes in America identified three types of bias crime offenders: the thrill seeker, the reactive offender, and the hard-core offender.8 They described the reactive offender as one “who grounds his attack on a perceived transgression, such as an insult, interracial dating, or a neighborhood integration.”9 The authors’ model incorporates the thrill seeker and the hard-core offender, but redefines the concept of the reactive offender. This phenomenon can be described as secondary justification; skinheads routinely use this technique to instigate attacks. For example, a group of skinheads encounter a mixed-race couple and shout racial slurs. If the couple reacts in a manner other than a submissive one, the skinheads perceive that behavior as an act of aggression. The skinheads later tell the police they merely defended themselves against aggressors. The skinheads, of course, leave out the fact that they acted as the instigators. Secondary justification is difficult to detect because skinheads can interpret a simple glance as aggressive behavior.
Secondary justification also exists on a larger scale. When a community reacts to a hate crime, skinheads perceive that reaction as aggressive, which reinforces the notion that skinheads must defend themselves against a common enemy. Secondary justification places the skinheads in a victim status and rationalizes continued violence. To further illustrate this principle, a skinhead, with a swastika tattooed on his cheek, walked into a jewelry store to buy a ring for his girlfriend. The skinhead became incensed when the Jewish clerk treated him poorly. The skinhead later commented that if Jews treated him with more respect he would not hate them so much. The skinhead clearly saw himself as a victim, although he openly displayed a provocative symbol of hate on his face.
Empirical observations show that hate groups go through seven stages in the hate process. Haters, if unimpeded, pass through these seven successive stages without skipping a stage. In the first four stages, haters vocalize their beliefs. In the last three stages, haters act on their beliefs. A transition period exists between vocalization and acting out. In this transition period, violence separates hard-core haters from rhetorical haters.
Stage 1: The Haters Gather
Irrational haters seldom hate alone.10 They feel compelled, almost driven, to entreat others to hate asthey do. Peer validation bolsters a sense of self-worth and, at the same time, prevents introspection, which reveals personal insecurities.11 Further, individuals otherwise ineffective become empowered when they join groups, which also provide anonymity and diminished accountability.
Stage 2: The Hate Group Defines Itself
Hate groups form identities through symbols, rituals, and mythologies, which enhance the members’ status and, at the same time, degrade the object of their hate. For example, skinhead groups may adopt the swastika, the iron cross, the Confederate flag, and other supremacist symbols. Group-specific symbols or clothing often differentiate hate groups. Group rituals, such as hand signals and secret greetings, further fortify members. Hate groups, especially skinhead groups, usually incorporate some form of self-sacrifice, which allows haters to willingly jeopardize their well-being for the greater good of the cause. Giving one’s life to a cause provides the ultimate sense of value and worth to life.12 Skinheads often see themselves as soldiers in a race war.
Stage 3: The Hate Group Disparages the Target
Hate is the glue that binds haters to one another and to a common cause.13 By verbally debasing the object of their hate, haters enhance their self-image, as well as their group status. In skinhead groups, racist song lyrics and hate literature provide an environment wherein hate flourishes. In fact, researchers have found that the life span of aggressive impulses increases with ideation.14 In other words, the more often a person thinks about aggression, the greater the chance for aggressive behavior to occur. Thus, after constant verbal denigration, haters progress to the next more acrimonious stage.
Stage 4: The Hate Group Taunts the Target
Hate, by its nature, changes incrementally. Time cools the fire of hate, thus forcing the hater to look inward. To avoid introspection, haters use ever-increasing degrees of rhetoric and violence to maintain high levels of agitation. Taunts and offensive gestures serve this purpose. In this stage, skinheads typically shout racial slurs from moving cars or from afar. Nazi salutes and other hand signals often accompany racial epithets. Racist graffiti also begins to appear in areas where skinheads loiter. Most skinhead groups claim turf proximate to the neighborhoods in which they live. One study indicated that a majority of hate crimes occur when the hate target migrates through the hate group’s turf.15
Stage 5: The Hate Group Attacks the Target Without Weapons
This stage is critical because it differentiates vocally abusive haters from physically abusive ones. In this stage, hate groups become more aggressive, prowling their turf seeking vulnerable targets. Violence coalesces hate groups and further isolates them from mainstream society. Skinheads, almost without exception, attack in groups and target single victims. Research has shown that bias crimes are twice as likely to cause injury and four times as likely to result in hospitalization as compared to nonbias crimes.16
In addition to physical violence, the element of thrill seeking is introduced in Stage 5. Two experts found that 60 percent of hate offenders were “thrill seekers.”17 The adrenaline “high” intoxicates the attackers. The initial adrenaline surge lasts for several minutes; however, the effects of adrenaline keep the body in a state of heightened alert for up to several days.18 Each successive anger- provoking thought or action builds on residual adrenaline and triggers a more violent response than the one that originally initiated the sequence.19 Anger builds on anger. The adrenaline high combined with hate becomes a deadly combination. Hard-core skinheads keep themselves at a level where the slightest provocation triggers aggression.
Stage 6: The Hate Group Attacks the Target with Weapons
Several studies confirm that a large number of bias attacks involve weapons.20 Some attackers use firearms to commit hate crimes, but skinheads prefer weapons, such as broken bottles, baseball bats, blunt objects, screwdrivers, and belt buckles. These types of weapons require the attacker to be close to the victim, which further demonstrates the depth of personal anger. Attackers can discharge firearms at a distance, thus precluding personal contact. Close-in onslaughts require the assailants to see their victims eye-to-eye and to become bloodied during the assault. Hands- on violence allows skinheads to express their hate in a way a gun cannot. Personal contact empowers and fulfills a deep-seated need to have dominance over others.
Stage 7: The Hate Group Destroys the Target
The ultimate goal of haters is to destroy the object of their hate. Mastery over life and death imbues the hater with godlike power and omnipotence, which, in turn, facilitate further acts of violence. With this power comes a great sense of self-worth and value, the very qualities haters lack. However, in reality, hate physically and psychologically destroys both the hater and the hated.
Model Application
Anecdotal evidence suggests that this hate model has a wider application. For example, when a coworker becomes a hate target for reasons other than race, sex, or national origin, the hater immediately seeks out others in the office who dislike, or can be persuaded to dislike, the hated coworker (Stage 1). The group establishes an identity using symbols and behaviors. They use a lifted eyebrow, a code word to exclude the hated coworker from a lunch invitation, or any number of other actions to demean and isolate. The haters even may adopt a name for their group (Stage 2). At this point, the haters only disparage the hated coworker within their group (Stage 3). As time passes, the haters openly insult the hated coworker either directly or indirectly by allowing disparaging remarks to be overheard from afar (Stage 4). One morning, the hated coworker discovers his desk rearranged and offensive images pasted over a picture depicting his wife and children (Stage 5). >From the sophomoric to the terroristic, acts of hate have the same effect. Eventually, the haters sabotage the hated coworker’s projects and attempt to ruin the individual’s reputation through rumors and innuendoes (Stage 6). In so doing, the haters make the work environment intolerable for the hate target (Stage 7). Scenarios like this occur every day across America and, indeed, around the world. The targets of hate may change, but the hate process remains constant.
Assessment
Assessing and analyzing skinhead groups can help investigators tailor intervention strategies to each hate group, thus increasing the probability of successful intervention and rehabilitation. Law enforcement can assess a skinhead group by first determining if the group is hate motivated or criminally motivated. The best method to establish motivation is through oneon-one interviews, although reviewing police reports and criminal histories prove adequate determining factors as well.
Second, investigators should measure the maturity of the group, which is not determined by the chronological age of the group’s members but by the collective actions of the group. Violence constitutes an important maturation indicator. Comparing the group’s activities to the stages in the hate model can determine the maturity of a skinhead group. Mature groups commit more violent acts than immature groups.
An additional step in the assessment process involves gauging the strength of the group’s mythology. Immature groups have simple mythologies, whereas mature groups have more complex and stubborn mythologies. Studying group mythologies proves difficult because they represent the aggregate of a group’s common beliefs, experiences, symbols, and rituals.
Symbols, Rituals, and Mythology
Fully understanding hate groups involves identifying and defining their unique symbols, rituals, and mythologies. Symbols give greater meaning to irrational hate. Haters use symbols for self- identification and to form common bonds with other group members. Additionally, they often swear allegiance to these symbols. For example, the swastika, a simple symbol, served as a powerful rallying point for the Nazi movement and helped mobilize an entire country.21
Each hate group adopts its own symbols or borrows them from others. Symbolic words and nonverbal behaviors reflect individual disdain and serve as advertisements to attract fellow sympathizers. Offensive language is the most common expression of dislike for others. Hate groups also display contempt by using nonverbal gestures, such as a Nazi salute. Clothes, short haircuts, military boots, tattoos, and bumper stickers also represent symbols that can effectively communicate hate.
Symbols, however, are not enough to unify a group; therefore, more organized hate groups incorporate rituals, which serve two functions. First, they relieve individual group members from deep thought and self-examination. Second, rituals reinforce beliefs and fortify group unity.
The hate group’s experiences, beliefs, and use of symbols and rituals combine to create group mythologies. Mythologies unify disparate thoughts and act as filters through which group members interpret reality.22 Group mythologies can have profound effects on its members.” A group with a powerful mythology results in one resistant to ideological challenges, and, therefore, it is more dangerous.
Mythologies nurtured, reinforced, and protected from outside ideas provide a forum where group members can escape individual responsibility. “When we lose our individual independence in the corporateness of a mass movement we find a new freedom-freedom to hate.”24
Interviewing Techniques
Ironically, skinheads, especially hate-motivated skinheads, talk to anyone who will listen, including law enforcement officers. One investigator who knew little about white-supremacist ideology simply asked skinheads why they hated,what their tattoos meant, and how skinhead groups were organized. Numerous interviews and observations substantiated the initial information obtained by the investigator. On the other hand, criminally motivated skinheads are less likely to talk because they act more like criminals. Investigators should determine the motivation of skinheads when planning interview strategies.
Hate-motivated skinheads have well-rehearsed answers for questions, such as “Why do you hate?” “Can’t you see what you’re doing is wrong?” “How would you like it if someone picked on you because of your race?” Skinheads answer smugly; they feel secure as skinheads. Because hate masks personal insecurities, interviewers should temporarily forego questions about why skinheads hate and strive to identify the skinheads’ personal insecurities. Interviewers should begin this probe by asking skinheads about their family relationships, which probably represent the source of the skinhead’s insecurities because a sense of who people are and where they fit in society typically develops within the family structure. Interviewers also should explore skinheads’ future plans, educational goals, and desired employment. This forces skinheads to see themselves as they really are. If forced to look at themselves, skinheads become vulnerable, less resistant to rehabilitation, and, in law enforcement settings, more likely to confess. This process could take several hours or many months depending on the resistance level of the skinhead. This strategy proves less effective when interviewing criminally motivated skinheads because they view themselves as criminals who hate, rather than haters who commit criminal acts. More traditional interviewing strategies have proven successful with criminally motivated skinheads.
Intervention Strategies
An accurate assessment of skinhead groups is critical to developing intervention strategies.
Dismantling immature skinhead groups proves easier than breaking down sophisticated skinhead groups. Skinheads not solidly committed to supremacist ideology more likely will respond to rehabilitation attempts than hard-core skinheads.21 Skinheads who have not passed from Stage 4 (rhetoric) to Stage 5 (violence) will prove more receptive to rehabilitation strategies than those skinheads who commit violence.
Investigators should approach criminally motivated skinhead groups by using tactics similar to those used against criminal street gangs. Disrupting the activities of mature, hate-motivated skinhead groups requires time and more elaborate interdiction strategies because such groups are more unified and committed to their beliefs. Conversely, aggressive prosecution constitutes an efficient means to disrupt immature, hate-motivated skinhead groups.
Law enforcement used this technique to dismantle Peer Pride, an immature, hate-motivated skinhead group in Palmdale, California. The FBI learned about Peer Pride when the group hung a noose from a tree in front of the home of an African-American family. Five Peer Pride members taunted the family with racial slurs and demanded that they move out of the neighborhood. Local law enforcement initially treated this incident as a prank because hanging the noose was the only reported hate activity by the group. However, a neighborhood canvass determined that Peer Pride members periodically sat in front of a local fast food restaurant and shouted racial slurs at the African-American patrons. Instead of leniency for the first-time offenders, the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Hate Crimes Unit recommended harsh sanctions, including jail sentences. The effect was immediate. The group disbanded and no other similar problems occurred in the neighborhood. The incident, in and of itself, could have been interpreted as a prank, but, in reality, the group was passing from Stage 3 to Stage 4 in the hate model.
In contrast, the Lancaster NLR group was a mature, hate- motivated skinhead group. Four NLR members beat an African-American transient to death to earn the right to wear lightning-bolt tattoos. According to the group’s ritual, members only can earn lightning- bolt tattoos by killing minorities. A review of police reports related to NLR criminal activities clearly showed the NLR group progressing through the seven stages of the hate model.
School administrators and teachers can use the hate model to informally assess hate group activities on campus. Identifying the stage in which a hate group is operating provides valuable information to determine how dangerous the group is and what type of intervention strategies to employ. Early intervention increases the probability of success, especially before the transition period from rhetoric (Stage 4) to violence (Stage 5). These strategies can range from informal sensitivity instruction to more formal programs, such as the Juvenile Offenders Learning Tolerance (JOLT) program administrated by the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office Hate Crimes Unit. JOLT is a model intervention program intended for first– time, low-level offenders who face potential criminal prosecution and school disciplinary action.
Conclusion
To develop and implement successful intervention strategies to deal with hate groups, law enforcement personnel first must understand the hate process. The hate model identifies the multiple stages of the hate process. Investigators can use this model to identify haters who have not yet transitioned from hate rhetoric to hate violence and target them with intervention programs, which have a higher probability of success. Likewise, law enforcement personnel can identify and target hard-core haters with appropriate interdiction strategies. Knowing how the hate process works helps interviewers penetrate the hate mask and address the hater’s underlying personal insecurities. If investigators can attenuate these personal insecurities, haters will become more receptive to rehabilitation. Identifying and understanding the stages of the hate process constitute the first steps in controlling hate violence.
Skinhead groups subdivide into two categories….
“Empirical observations show that hate groups go through sevens stages in that hate through seven process. ”
“An accurate assessment of skinhead groups is critical to developing intervention strategies.
Endnotes
1 The authors based this article on their observations and interviews of several hundred self-described skinheads, defined as “usually white males belonging to any of various, sometimes violent, youth gangs whose members have close- shaven hair and often espouse whitesupremacist beliefs,” Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, 10th ed. (1996), s.v. “skinhead.”
2 See Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements (New York, NY: Harper and Row, 1989).
3 Ibid.
4 Ibid.
5 Ibid.
6 Statistics, however, reveal that most hate crimes are not committed by hate groups. See U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reporting Program, Hate Crime Statistics 2000 (Washington, DC, 2001). For more information on collecting hate crime, see U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reporting Program, Training Guide for Hate Crime Data Collection (Washington, DC, 1997).
7 Raymond Paternoster and Alex Piquero, “Reconceptualizing Deterrence: An Empirical Test of Personal and Vicarious Experiences,” Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency 32 (August 1995): 251-286.
8 See Brian Levin, “A Dream Deferred: The Social and Legal Implications of Hate Crimes in the 1990s,” The Journal of lntergroup Relations 20, no. 3 (Fall 1993): 10, citing Jack Levin and Jack McDevitt, Hate Crimes: The Rising Tide of Bigotry and Bloodshed (New York, NY: Plenum Press, 1993).
9 Ibid.
10 Supra note 2, 93-94. 11 Supra note 2, 93-94. 12 Supra note 2, 99.
13 Supra note 2, 92.
14 Charles W. Turner and John F. Layton, “Verbal Imagery and Connotation as Memory Induced Mediators of Aggressive Behavior,” Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 33 (1976): 755-763.
15 Supra note 8, 10.
16 Supra note 8, 9.
17 Supra note 8, 10.
18 Dolf Zillerman’s research is described in Daniel Coleman, Emotional Intelligence (New York, NY: Bantam Press, 1997), 60-62.
19 Ibid.
20 Supra note 8, 8.
21 William L. Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany (New York, NY: Fawcett Crest, 1960), 71.
22 Daniel C. Maguire and A. Nicholas Farnoli, On Moral Grounds: The Art, Science of Ethics (New York, NY: The Crossroads Publishing Co., 1991), 164-167.
23 Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers, The Power of Myth (New York, NY: Doubleday, 1988 31.
24 Supra note 2, 100.
25 Supra note 8, 10.
To see more documents/articles regarding this group/organization/subject click here.
OHG! You love him. In a dark desperate way. That’s so sweet.
Denise,
You are a geek.
A very lonely one at that.
Happy New Year.
Since the cowards who write to me on my blog will not leave actual working email addresses or real names, I will reply to one here:
Mr. Brown,
If you want me to publish your comment on my blog, you must use your full real name.
Question: what do you mean by “get women” in your statement below?
“It did not and does not help you get women to think like that, despite the fact that I was outgoing, popular, intelligent, on a college track, etc.”
Also, I don’t know how old you are, but your statement below is striking to me, as every woman I know will respect men who respect them but will NOT respect men who are callous and emotionally distant. We walk away from such men.
“Only when I lost respect for women, did women begin to respect me. Only when I became callous and emotionally distant, did they grow close to me.
As for your statement below, I am not a hate-monger.
“You are a hate-monger, who will continue to lie to our sons, and lead them down paths of misery, depression, and isolation.”
Why is it so hard for you to believe that you can be your best healthiest self and be loved and cherished by a quality woman for being your best and healthiest human self?
You fail to realize that the PUAs and Gamers are misusing Evolutionary Psychological theories to fool men like you into spending your money on their snake oil. You are being gamed.
“Evolutionary psychology opened my eyes up to the truth.”
Newsflash: there is no “female brain” – the latest cutting edge research on sex, attraction, arousal, etc focuses on the HUMAN brain not on the male or female brain.
“Women want strength and status”.
I’d love to know your definitions of “strength and status” in your statement above. Do tell me.
“By psychologically castigating men through feminism, you deny us both our natural needs and wants. You make both men and women miserable.”
Please explain to me how feminism psychologically castigates men. It does not. It frees both men and women to fully experience and utilize their minds, bodies, and emotions.
As for your statement below – do tell me – what does evolutionary psychology (as you understand it) say about continuing evolution?
Are you holding onto ideas of the “male brain” and the “female brain” from millions of years ago because you’re afraid to evolve as a man?
Are we to believe that humans evolve in so many ways but never sexually or in our relating skills? How is it that we no longer live in caves, have sent people into space, have digital technology, and have cured many diseases — yet you claim that the TRUTH is that we are all still cave-dwellers in the psychology of our relating?
If you and other men choose to remain cave-dwellers and refuse to evolve by using and learning healthier methods relating to other humans that are freely available what does that say about you?
I’ll tell you what it means in terms of evolution.
Women will reject men who think and behave as you do and your seed will die out. You are not the fittest men and therefore you will not survive.
Women consider a PUA or an extreme MRA to be just as bad as violent felons, raving lunatics, or persons with several raging STDs.
PUAs are not datable and are not relationship material becuase you’ve been tragically and successfully brainwashed.
Your insecurities and perceived failures with women have been exploited by the PUA industry (which has been infiltrated by the extremist rantings of the hateful MRA movement) and you have been sold lies, misinformation, false statistics, and have been taught to respond to your own pain with a form of hatred that you don’t even recognize as hatred.
Instead of choosing to learn from your past pain and “failures” you have chosen to stay in that pain and lash out at all women and not even consider that you have many FREE tools available to you to become the best man you can be and also have healthy success with women.
Read the FBI paper to see the hate you’ve been manipulated into purchasing. The PUA industry games men into spending their hard-earned money on hate that does not work and lines the pockets of the owners of PUA “schools”.
“I’m sorry that we are different. The world isn’t perfect, but pretending it can be just by using feminist philosophy to deny our very inborn nature, will only make it worse.”
Men and Women are much more alike than different. Emotional and psychological pain and pleasure are not different in men and women. I am not pretending. You are pretending.
You and other men are even *paying* to have teachers and groups of men online and in person help you pretend so much. Because if you didn’t pay them to feed you this hate-filled misinformation and if you looked at the information I’ve freely provided on my blog to you – and if you actually tried what I’m offering you for FREE – you would see that you’ve wasted alot of time and money on the PUA industry.
Why do you want to believe that your inborn nature is what the PUAs have told you it is? Is there a reason you believe PUA peddlers over actual credible thought leaders in psychology, anthropology, neuroscience, emotional intelligence, and yes – in evolutionary psychology also?
I don’t know about you, but if I have a very bad sore throat, I go to an actual medical doctor and get the latest, best-known remedy that will help me. I don’t pay someone who has no credible background or training in the hard science that causes and cures bad sore throats.
What do you gain by believing what the PUAs sell? What do you gain by choosing to believe that you can’t have a wonderful woman love you for who you are at your emotionally and psychologically healthiest? What do you gain by believing that feminism is bad for you when actually it is very good for you?
What do you have to gain by believing that all women cannot be trusted? Or that all women want to be mistreated?
I think it’s just an easy, lazy excuse for bad behavior and an easy way out of doing real work on yourself to be the best, healthier, most attractive, most ethical and wondeful man you can be. That would be a better course of work to spend your time and money on.
“Some MRAs are filled with hate. If you had your spirit and identity raped, something far worse than the rape of flesh, you would understand.”
Why don’t you tell me more and help me understand.
And I ask you to consider this: Game teaches you to rape the spirit and identity of yourself and of the women you “get”, “lay”, and otherwise use.
How do you think those women feel after they’ve been pumped and dumped? How do you think it feels for women to be valued only for their appearances by PUAs who rate them on a number scale?
Read James C Weidmann’s blog – don’t you see that he and his eager followers are raping the spirit and identity of women by making completely false statements about women in the way that they do?
Look at everything that game has taught you about all women: do you see that game raped the spirit and identity of all women without even knowing them? Feminism does not do that to men or to women.
Feminism recognizes that men and women who are violent towards each other have significant psychological injuries that they have not healed. You can choose to heal those injuries and become a healthy man or you can choose to not heal those injuries and stay in the hateful, false place that you are in order to justify an unhealthy violence towards women — which you have indicated exists in your mind and actions in your email to me.
Do you see that game is just a lashing out and violent reaction to your very human pain and fear? Don’t you see that it’s not men’s faults that they might enter adolescnece or adulthood with poor relationship skills?
It’s not really anyone’s fault. Social and psychological evolution happens and our parents are not always able to prepare us for this. but the great news is that we can learn for ourselves and we can choose to EVOLVE.
But you have to be brave enough to choose to evolve and to choose not to respond with hatred and violence to all women just because you’ve been hurt in the past.
I do know what it is to have your spirit and identity raped; I have been raped and that rapes you in every way. But I do not hate men. I do not believe that all men are rapists – because I know they’re not.
The man who raped me was a psychologically sick man. But he is not every man. Far from it. There are wonderful, healthy, loving, kind, intelligent, evolved men all over the planet who do respect women and who do have healthy, happy, fulfilling, passionate relationships with women.
These men did not get this way by accident; they strove to be that way. They chose it. They, like me, chose to respond to their painful experiences in life by healing in healthy ways, by learning more about what makes someone heatlhy or not, and by striving to be as healthy as they can be.
I hope you will join the millions of healthy, wonderful men and look at real statistics, real facts, and do your own reserach.
Don’t take my word for it – why don’t you write to the leading evolutionary psychologists in the world and ask them if Game is teaching their theories or not.
Write to the leading neuroscience experts and ask them if there is a female and male brain and what those differences might be.
And, don’t worry – I will be writing to them to, and I will be publishing what I learn.
Lastly, people like me who expose Roissy and the PUA and extremist MRAs for what they are — snake oil salesmen who sell hatred and violence — we are directly confronting hate and violence in an effort to stop it — which means we are attacking the easy livelihoods of alot of men.
Those men will therefore stop at nothing to try to attack and discredit us.
I am fascincated by men who will write to me on my blog and tell me I’m a misandrist yet do not write to Roissy and call him a misogynist and then defend him and other PUA peddlers.
I am not a misandrist, and Lady Raine isn’t either. Feminists are not misandrists and are not your enemies.
If you read my blog again, you’ll see that I care about the well-being of men and women – and I do believe it’s entirely possible for all people to get their needs met without harming others and without denying others having their needs met.
I hope you’ll choose to evolve since you’re so passionate about Evolutionary Psychology.
Do join those of us who believe in evolution. You’ll also save alot of time and money by not being a PUA consumer.
Denise
Here is the email the above responds to:
Your lies do disservice to your cause. My mom was a misguided feminist like you. I was a niceguy and believed what she told me about gender differences being socially constructed. It did not and does not help you get women to think like that, despite the fact that I was outgoing, popular, intelligent, on a college track, etc. Only when I lost respect for women, did women begin to respect me. Only when I became callous and emotionally distant, did they grow close to me.
You are a hate-monger, who will continue to lie to our sons, and lead them down paths of misery, depression, and isolation. Evolutionary psychology opened my eyes up to the truth. Time to open yours. Women want strength and status. By psychologically castigating men through feminism, you deny us both our natural needs and wants. You make both men and women miserable. I’m sorry that we are different. The world isn’t perfect, but pretending it can be just by using feminist philosophy to deny our very inborn nature, will only make it worse. Some MRAs are filled with hate. If you had your spirit and identity raped, something far worse than the rape of flesh, you would understand.
LR EDIT: Sadly, no one ever told that commenter that “You parents are not perfect. They are human beings capable of mistakes, stereotyping, and foolishness just like you are.”
This is a living example of allowing ONE WOMAN/MAN to form your thinking about an entire gender, race, culture, or religion. Sure,the influence of the mother is SUPPOSED to be a heavy one…..but as you can see, it’s much easier to look toward the ONE NEGATIVE thing to validate making an enemy out of women…..and making a criminal out of yourself…..
Then admitting that ONE WOMAN could be wrong, could be fallible, could really have been just interpreting Feminism as best as she could……and forgiving her…..moving on…..learning a lesson….and becoming a more intelligent and understanding man/woman.
No, that’s much too difficult. You know the old saying that it “Takes far more muscles to frown than it does to smile?”
Apply it to yourself.
One last question for Mr. Brown who sent the email above and for any man who has been physically raped –
given this statement – “if you had your spirit and identity raped, something far worse than the rape of flesh, you would understand”
Do tell us how when you were physically raped it was not as bad as having your spirit and identity raped.
Help us understand. Surely in order to make that statement, you have been sexually raped. We all feel for you and want to support you in your healing. I hope you’re getting the professional help required to successfully heal from such a violent traumatic experience.
Now, help us understand also how your spirit and identity have been raped, and do help us understand how the latter was far worse than the sexual assualt you experienced.
We look forward to you all helping us understand this.
Thanks
Denise
TO All PUAs and MRAs who agree with James Weidmann on anything and to the women who defend Jimmy and his blog:
I invite you to think about and email me (if you wish) about the following – as I really do want to know your perspective:
1. What first brought you to game/MRA and what was happening in your life that made you think it would help you?
2. Your family relationships and family structure now, when you were a child and what you want for your future family
3. Your sense of yourself as a man and your sense of women in general and how men and women fit into society
4. Your idea of an ideal society
5. Your future plans, educational goals, and desired employment
6. If you have daughters now or in the future, what do you want for them in their lives and in relation to men and other women?
7. If you have sons now or in the future, what do you want for them in their lives and in relation to women and other men?
Thanks
Denise
“You Are Not a Princess! 25 Points for Women and Men to Consider”
–
“I’ve been writing this blog for almost a year now. In that time, I’ve noticed many double standards and gender inequities in relationships that are culturally acceptable. Here are some of my observations for women to consider in terms of their own behavior and for men to consider in terms of their own enlightenment when it comes to women and relationships. The following points don’t apply to all women, however, they apply to enough of them that they’re part of our faulty cultural belief system. Hey ladies (and you know who you are):
1. You are not a princess. You do not deserve to be treated like royalty just by virtue of your sex. You deserve to be treated no better or worse than you treat others.
2. You are not any more “special” nor any more “entitled” than anyone else. You don’t deserve special privileges and nobody “owes” you anything by virtue of who you are or because of your gender.
3. You are just as “lucky” to have found your husband/boyfriend as he was to find you. Have you ever considered that there are times when you are lucky that he puts up with and tolerates you?
4. Men have feelings, too. They hurt just as much as you do when you criticize, reject, dismiss, ignore, make fun of, disrespect, invalidate and/or mock them. In fact, they may hurt more because they don’t have as many emotional outlets as you—especially if you tell him his feelings “don’t count” or to “be a man” when he expresses his feelings that you mistakenly claim he doesn’t have and/or is “wrong” for having. He has feelings and he has a right to them even when they’re not the same as yours and/or are expressed differently than you express yours.
5. If it’s okay for you to have male friends and maintain friendships with your exes, it’s also okay for your husband/boyfriend to have female friends and maintain friendships with his exes. It is not different for you because “you’re a woman.” It’s faulty logic to suppose women are inherently more trustworthy than men. This is called a double standard and it’s not okay. Otherwise, the culturally acceptable pronouncement, “Men are all dogs” should be met with “Women are all bitches” (i.e., female dogs) and should be equally culturally acceptable.
6. A father is just as important in a child’s life as a mother. Period. Just because you have a uterus doesn’t make you the better parent by default.
7. Children are not “hers” and “his” objects. The correct possessive pronoun is “ours.”
8. Your husband/boyfriend does not “owe” you. He shouldn’t be expected to financially support you and shower you with gifts unless you’re willing to reciprocate and equally support him without question or complaint. You’re neither his child nor his dependent. You’re supposed to be his equal partner.
9. Your husband’s/boyfriend’s desires, needs, wishes, feelings, likes and dislikes are just as important as yours. It’s not all about you all the time. You’re supposedly in a mutual and reciprocal relationship; not a service industry/client-vendor relationship.
10. If you’re not willing to make changes in yourself and your behavior, you’ve no right to demand that your husband/boyfriend do so. Nor is it reasonable to demand or expect your husband/boyfriend to make all the changes you want first before you’re willing to do your own work.
11. You are not a better human being by virtue of being a woman. You’re not a goddess. You’re not a sacred cow. You don’t “rule.” You’re a person, just like your husband/boyfriend is a person. You both deserve to be treated with equal dignity and respect when you act and treat each other with dignity and respect.
12. It’s a lie and a manipulation to say you “sacrificed” your career when you never really wanted to work in the first place. If you see your husband/boyfriend as your ticket to freedom from being a wage slave, be honest with yourself and your husband/boyfriend and most important of all, BE GRATEFUL. Having another person pay your way through life is not an inalienable right; it’s an enormous gift for which you should express gratitude on a regular basis.
13. It is wrong to use your child(ren) to hurt, control or extort money from your husband/boyfriend/ex. In fact, it borders on child abuse. Children are not pawns or human shields to be used for your own selfish reasons. They’re people who will later grow to resent you for using them in this fashion and will likely develop psychological problems of their own as a result.
14. It is wrong to expect or demand that your ex continue to financially support you after the relationship ends. The children are entitled to support until they become adults at the age of 18. You’re already an adult and, as such, you’re capable of and should legally be expected to take care of yourself— unless you’re willing to continue to support your ex by doing his grocery shopping, cooking cleaning, errands, etc. If your obligations to your husband are finished after a divorce, so should be his obligations to you.
15. Your husband/boyfriend is not responsible for your happiness. It isn’t his job to make you happy; that’s your job. Just as he is responsible for his own happiness. He’s supposed to be your equal partner, not your emotional wet nurse.
16. The desire for sex in a committed, loving relationship is healthy and natural. Using sex to control, shame or hurt your husband/boyfriend by withholding affection or making sex transactional is unhealthy and wrong.
17. Your husband/boyfriend should be more important to you than your child(ren) just as you should be more important to your husband than the child(ren). In other words, you should be each others’ first priorities; children second. You don’t need a husband if your sole desire is to have children—unless you see the man as a source of income for yourself and the children. If you can’t support yourself, you probably shouldn’t be having children. Marriage is a bond between two grown adults; not a bond between parent and child (Marc Rudov, 2008). You vow to honor your spouse and put him or her before all others, this includes your children. Children eventually fly the coop. If you make them the focus and raison d’être of your marriage, don’t be surprised when you no longer have much of a marriage as the years pass.
18. You are only entitled to what you earn or produce. Men are neither beasts of burden nor “working boys” to be pimped out in the service of their partners or ex-partners. No one owes you a living. As an adult, you’re not entitled to be taken care of by another party unless you have documented cognitive or physical disabilities that prohibit you from working. Last time I checked, being a wife, ex-wife, girlfriend, ex-girlfriend, mistress, ex-mistress, mother and/or simply a woman wasn’t considered a disability.
19. It is just as ABUSIVE when a woman slaps, kicks, hits, spits, at, scratches, shoves, pushes, punches, pulls hair, uses a weapon, swings a golf club at or throws objects at a man. It isn’t funny, cute, justifiable or deserved. It is indefensible, inexcusable, criminal and just as prosecutable as when a man acts violently toward a woman. Period.
20. The same goes for emotional abuse. It is unacceptable.
21. It is neither “normal” nor “acceptable” adult female behavior to throw temper tantrums, withhold sex, cry, rage, pout, have disproportionate reactions to events or be unable to control emotions and behaviors. At the very least, these are signs of emotional lability and poor impulse control; at worst, these are indicators of serious pathology and quite possibly some kind of personality disorder.
22. It is not okay to divert money from your joint checking/savings account(s) or open credit cards in your husband’s/boyfriend’s name without his knowledge and explicit permission. The first instance is stealing and the second is considered identity theft and fraud. Signing your husband’s/boyfriend’s signature to financial and legal documents is forgery. All of these actions are illegal.
23. It is irresponsible to live beyond your means and abusive to expect your husband/boyfriend to foot the bill or go into debt to cover your expenses. If you can’t responsibly use a credit/debit card then, much like a child, you shouldn’t have one.
24. It is never acceptable or permissible to threaten to deny your husband/boyfriend/ex access to the children you share. It is not okay to make up abuse allegations because you’re feeling angry, hurt or out of control. This is an act of slander (spoken) or libel (written) and if you swear to it in court, it’s also an act of perjury.
25. It is not fair to commit to or marry a man and then try to change him. If you don’t accept him as he is, just like you expect him to accept you and your faults, then you have no business being with him. Everyone has a right to feel accepted for who he or she is in a relationship. If he’s “not good enough” for you from the get go; keep looking and cut him loose so he can be with a woman who appreciates him.
All of these observations seem self-evident to me, which leads me to ponder how did we get here?
by Dr Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD
http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/12/15/you-are-not-a-princess-25-points-for-women-and-men-to-consider/
LR EDIT: I agree with all of this. I don’t believe in men OR women playing victim and acting like the world owes them something. The are not “born” to “deserve” respect, happiness, love, or even fairness. You have to earn it. If you are too lazy to earn it….I don’t care what your gender is…..you deserve the life of unhappiness and loneliness that you will surely reap from what you have sown.
This goes for both genders and I don’t see how anyone can argue otherwise.
Why is this a list for women and not a list for both women and men?
Shouldn’t it be made clear that these are standards of behavior for anyone in a relationship?
LR EDIT: I think it’s pretty obvious, Denise: These guys are SO brainwashed that even when a PROFESSIONAL says “Men and Women should be held to the same standards.” All they can hear is that whispering in their ear that tells them that because you were born with a uterus you MUST be a liar, you MUST be dishonest…..and therefore….deserve everything you get. That’s the whole purpose behind Game. You know it. I know it. Most people who AREN’T professionals can see it……
But their psyches cannot handle truth about themselves or truth about anyone else….only denial, displacement, projection, and DE-evolution back to their “eat, shit, sleep, fuck” caveman roots.
You and I also know that whether a genius or a dullard, any human mind can be easily brainwashed and conditioned.
Yes, I know what you’re saying, LR – I was specifically wanting the professional who posted this to explain why this is her angle.
And, yes any human mind can easily be brainwashed with the right techniques.
I’d also like to see Tara respond to this:
Hitting A Woman Will Turn Her On
February 24, 2009 by roissy
For those who will be shocked
I remind you:
Please read the byline in the banner.
Commenter expat wrote in response to yesterday’s post about women falling deeper in love with guys like Chris Brown who physically abuse them:
After six months of casually dating a tweenager, I caught her having a fling. I might have put up with the fling, but she broke dates three nights in a row, and I became enraged by her rudeness. Those two left jabs to her face remain vivid in my brain. I must say it was an extremely intense moment – a moment of pleasure.
She says she fell in love with me at that precise point. She took me much more seriously after that.
I’ve never forgotten that life lesson. I do my best not to put myself in a situation where I’ll choose that action again. I don’t want to be that guy. But having been that guy shows a world we are told does not exist.
LR EDIT: This makes me sick to read. This is clearly a VERY disturbed man and the woman is obviously a very disturbed individual as well. I can only hope that he is sent to prison before he murders and abuses innocent women like he clearly is going to do as long as he is a free man.
This is going to be a very difficult post for some of you to handle. I suggest those of you who faint at the thought of pulling off a band-aid or getting an erection at an inappropriate time pack up your dog-eared copy of The Vagina Monologues and leave now. Furthermore, anyone who can’t distinguish is from ought would be best served leaving as well.
Expat’s observation of the effect his hit had on his woman, and the experiences of those men who have talked to me about similar scenarios, mirrors my own experience. One time I backhanded my girlfriend across the face. Hard. I won’t get into the details of what led up to the altercation, except to say that the slap was fully deserved. She stumbled backwards, her hair flying in ribbons, and looked up at me holding her hand to her face. She was quiet. A few seconds of silence passed. I went and sat on the sofa in the other room for a while, then stepped outside for a walk. She was still there when I came back later that night. She sidled up to me and began pawing my chest and crotch, frantically pulling my shirt off over my head with one hand while unbuttoning her jeans with the other. No words were exchanged. In seconds we were naked, as the streetlamp outside cast shards of yellowish light on the walls.
LR EDIT: Again, you’d think the fact that a woman “responded well” to this would tell him that he is only attracting very sick women……because he is clearly a very sick man. Another example of “Well as long as ONE woman ‘liked it’ that means that ALL women are just as depraved and psychologically damaged as this one and also as myself”
Not to put too lewd a point on it, but her pussy was wetter than it had ever been. As she was preparing to straddle me, long streamers of mucousy pussy juice dripped from her labia onto my rock hard cock below. I remember it clear as day — the viscous juice was a faintly pale yellow, illuminated by the streetlamp light and the flicker of a TV nearby. I put my hand on the spot in between her breasts, and her heart thumped like a bass drum. She moaned in a deep, gutteral way that you only hear from big predators as they are hunched over a kill gorging themselves. My cock was burning up inside her pussy, which felt like a coal fired oven.
It was the hottest sex I had ever had with her. Her passion exploded like a fireworks finale, finishing in a thermonuclear bomb of lust. Afterwards, she said her orgasms were so intense that she had almost passed out. She described seeing pinpricks of light dancing in her mind.
I have taken this experience with me to this day. I’ve had verbal fights with girlfriends before. I’ve walked out on girlfriends. I know how great after-fight sex can be (I prefer the term “after-fight” to “make-up” sex, as it better explains the underlying dynamics at play). But nothing came close in passionate intensity… no sex was hotter… than that time I backhanded my girl across her cheek. It was simple math to me — my unexpected and sudden slap had turned her on so much it left her quivering in bodyshaking orgasmic release.
LR EDIT: This is the kind of thing that makes me realize just how “normal” I am. I have never in my life hit a man, slapped him, pushed him, or thrown things at him…..and if I HAD and he responded WELL to it, I’d know that there was something seriously wrong with me…..and wrong with the other person. There is nothing “powerful” about an adult man or woman abusing another man or woman. This is something that animals and children do because they lack the discipline, education, and moral fortitude to handle an “issue” any other way.
I’m not going to argue in this post whether hitting a woman is alpha or beta. My belief is that on average it is the method of a lesser alpha — a transcendent alpha substitutes self-possessed mindfucking for hitting, but a nascent lesser alpha who is relatively unaccustomed to the psychoflaying provocations of especially beautiful women will often let his emotions get the best of him. I have never known a beta to hit a woman; they simply don’t have the testosterone or ballsack to do so. Most men are deathly afraid of the idea of hitting a girlfriend when she gets out of line, even more afraid than the thought of hitting another man. Therefore, I do not subscribe to the argument that hitting a “weaker woman” is inherently beta. In fact, if betas landed at least one well-placed, exquisitely timed slap on a bitchy girlfriend, many of them would see their relationships improve. This is an ugly truth about women that so many refuse to confront.
LR EDIT: A woman who “responds well” to being hit or abused is just as psychologically disturbed as you are. Congratulations on being successful at “picking up” women who are in need of medication, therapy, and lifelong counseling. What’s next? Tricking a woman with down’s syndrome into sleeping with you? Oh, wait…these guys have already posted about that sort of thing….
Women especially do not like to confront this fact about themselves because they fear their own untameable contours of sexual desire. Women understand that if men knew what actually motivates their libido, they would be taken advantage of as their will crumbled under the onslaught of his refurbished masculine energy. They would lose their leverage in the sexual market. They would be compelled to surrender, utterly, completely, totally.
i loved that he was so powerful i was nothing.
- O, on her sadistic lover
Note that hitting a woman is context dependent. You cannot walk up to a random woman on the street, slap her in the grill, and expect her to jump your bone. Nor can you hit a woman on the first date, hoping it will close the deal. Hitting, in powerful SINGULAR bursts no more than one slap at a time, will only have the intended pussy moistening effect on women who are already in your sexual orbit. She must be your girlfriend or lover. If she isn’t already intrigued by you, hitting her won’t make her so.
LR EDIT: Translation: “If you have successfully abused ONE deeply disturbed female……then ALL women secretly love exactly the same things.” This is a great example of what PUA’s teach men….that if it works on even ONE female…..you are now a mind-reader who knows what NORMAL, quality women want also.
You’d think these guys would wonder why they can’t get “normal, healthy, intelligent” women!!
For practical reasons, you should never hit a wife. Although it will fire up her loins and deepen her love for you in the moment, when the divorce comes (50% chance) at a future date, her sleazebag lawyer will coax those pleasant memories out of her and use your moment of expressive masculinity against you to royally screw you for all eternity. Yet another reason not to get married.
LR EDIT: Yes! It’s not because it’s a CRIME and something only a PREDATOR does……it’s because LAWYERS are evil and looking for an excuse to use Feminist Propaganda on your tiny, defenseless male brains.
Commenter Paul “Faygala” Gowder wrote:
Roissy claims that the refusal of domestic violence victims to speak to the cops reveals that women like being beaten. That is such utter idiocy and dangerous drivel that it makes me practically dizzy to see that someone wrote it.
Paul is your typical lickspittle betaboy SWPLer feminist suck-up who has imbibed deeply of the reigning orthodoxy. His pinched soul is a warped and shriveled nutsack of legalese sophistry. His shoulder is drenched from years of unattainable girls crying on it. Behold him, for he is the personification and the foot soldier of the Great Lie.
I am not claiming that women WISH to be beaten. Naturally, if you ask a woman, she will say “No way I don’t want to be beaten!”. What I do claim is that despite a woman’s conscious feelings towards abusers, her loins and her heart melt for men who abuse them, as can be seen by not only their return trips to the poisoned well (50% of women return to their abusive lovers), but by their very REAL and GENUINE love for their violently abusive lovers. Nothwithstanding to the contrary all the feminist squid ink attempting to whitewash in proper PC politesse why women go back to men who hit them, the simplest, and most parsimonious explanation, is that women return to abusers because THEY LOVE THEM. They are drawn to them. I have looked into the eyes of women who were in relationships with men who hit them, and I saw love. True, deep, fathomless love. If you have ever seen the eyes of a woman in love, you’ll know what I mean. They look as if they’re cavorting on another plane of existence.
Even beautiful women like Rihanna, with nearly illimitable options on the sexual market and an extensive support network that would protect her from abusive boyfriends, cannot help but keep going back to the man who hits her. Rihanna is said to be lonely without Chris Brown. She could have almost any man, but she chooses the man who punched her in the face.
I believe this is an ingrained hindbrain preference generally shared by most women that refuses to comfort the egos of the faint of heart and the blind of reality. Now whether this innate preference is a misfiring of the female brain’s coding for dominant men, or simply an extreme example of such a preference that lies along a spectrum of lust for men possessing varying degrees of dominance is open for discussion. But one thing is clear:
Chicks dig power, and hitting a woman is a form of power.
My thesis, based on this fundamental understanding of female psychology, is that women get turned on by the display of power when a man delivers a hit, even, maybe especially, a hit that targets herself.
Roissy Maxim #2: Women are turned on by displays of male power. Striking in anger or contempt or disciplinary scorn is one such form of power.
Be aware that none of what I’ve written above is a deliberation on the morality of hitting women. I explain reality and human nature as it is, and in so doing give you the tools with which to advantage yourselves. I leave the decision of what to do with these tools up to you. The Dark Church of Roissy exists beyond the shackles of morality, where angels fear to tread.
Personally, I don’t advocate hitting women, despite knowing full well that it works. In this day and age, it is a risky venture, and there are better methods of training your girlfriend to be the best woman she can be to you. The right frame of mind and tight game will be just as effective, if not moreso in the long run, as a firm slap for turning your girlfriend into an Army of One Loyal Pussy.
Furthermore, it has been my experience that reaching the heights of alphadom precludes frequent emotional outbursts that would result in a physical confrontation. Striking in anger every time a girl tests your mettle is not the way of the rock solid alpha. Amused mastery and grace under pressure, in most circumstances, is the superior attitude. But an infrequent blast of animated masculine zeal, sometimes in the form of a slap to the face, will reaffirm your love for her in her eyes, and convince her of your worthiness. Not to mention set her pussy aflame. This is a reaction she will not be able to control, no matter how many feminist manifestos she reads.
I don’t think there is anything particularly wrong in hitting a woman, though I don’t recommend you do it the same way that you hit a man.
- Sean Connery
Posted in Alpha, Girls, Love, The Id Monster, The Pleasure Principle, Ugly Truths | 519 Comments
519 Responses
LR EDIT: This is a fabulous example of what guys like Roissy and Xsplat believe in…..preying on women who are clearly one step away from being committed to an institution would “like”. Most normal adult men and women are educated and have the moral conscience to know that “hitting” is not “power”. Power is knowing that you are untouchable no matter HOW hard someone presses your buttons.
Power is in understanding, knowledge, and education……not in being a predator, a criminal, and a voluntary victim. Anyone who has to have this explained to them should have already been seeking professional help a very long time ago.
Just because women (like Rihanna) have money and fame…..does not mean that they are psychologically “well” and representative of the average woman.
Considering how cold and apathetic I can be…..I find it deeply disturbing that there ARE people out there who could read these comments from Roissy’s blog and NOT be physically sickened, horrified, and repulsed enough to almost vomit reading it. I hardly think that I am alone in that opinion…..and I don’t believe for a second that most men OR women would be able to stomach reading this any more than I can.
That’s how I know that I am still “okay”.
LR – I want to thank you for the info you posted on your blog about weidmann.
He will get his.
Have you seen the Diversity Policy on FINRA’s website? Wouldn’t it be a fascinating — or at the very least an excellent Criminal Minds episode — to see how weidmann manages to stifle his violent and hateful impulses and compulsions when he is at work around professional women?
Wouldn’t it be great to see how he behaves if his boss is a woman?
LR EDIT: Actually, I checked it myself…..dear Jimmy’s bosses ARE women. This explains some of his hatred toward “female lawyers” specifically. He lashes out at them through his blog.
There is a link to FINRA’s Ombuds person; I encourage people to write to the Ombudsperson and include some of weidmann’s most violent and vile quotes and then tell FINRA that you will never invest money with them and you ensure that everyone you know will never invest money with them because they employ this pathological being who belongs in an institution for the criminally insane.
For those who think it’s unfair that LR or anyone else has publicized weidmann’s identity or that encouraging others to write to his employer, consider this:
Weidmann is a fraud investigator – yet he encourages men to defraud women in every way possible. He also does encourage sexual and physical violence against women – frequently.
There are those who say what he says is mostly tongue in cheek.
LR EDIT: I want to touch on the “tongue in cheek” thing here…..I think that Roissy DOES intend a lot of what he says to be “tongue in cheek” ON THE SURFACE. Roissy is not stupid. However, he does this intentionally knowing that MANY of his readers/commentors are deeply disturbed men looking for a “Jesus” to tell them the way they think, act, feel is “okay”. He allows his blog to be what he calls “misinterpreted” because he is intelligent enough to know how to prey on the weak…..prey on his own gender….and validate his secret belief in these posts that are allegedly supposed to be “tongue in cheek”.
This is what allows him to go home at night and NOT feel like the abusive, hateful man that he really is deep down inside. The sickness of the male posters on his site VALIDATE that he isn’t “as bad as they are”. He uses a much more broad scale than most abusers do…..but the end result is the same.
Not according to weidmann himself on his on blog. He repeatedly states that he is not kidding.
Not kidding about:
women get turned on when they are hit
cum in her mouth and hold it closed so she has to swallow it
suffrage was the worst thing to happen to the US
a real man can hit a woman and not have her call the police
the best sex he’s ever had with women has been after he has hit them
the best sex he has is when he feels like he is hurting her internally
women want to be treated badly
women want to be completely dominated
tease her to the point of offense 99% of the time in response to what she says
etc.
LR EDIT: Indeed. He has stated those things in exactly those words more than once or twice.
Nick Savoy must be next. What is his real name? And what terrible trauma did he suffer that he claims to respect women yet calls “crazy” anyone who points out his snake-oil peddling.
Mr. M – a love systems instructor wants to buy weidmann drinks yet LoveSystems insists that they respect women.
They’re all wounded closet misyogynists – and they are dangerous.
If they weren’t, they’d simply use their real names.
LR – can you please send me your yahoo email? I could look back for it, but I’m on a deadline and have limited time.
Thanks,
Denise
LR EDIT: Yes ma’am. It’s MilanLS1119@yahoo.com
LR – Yes PUA and extremist MRAs do operate as cults do and should be defined accordingly:
From Cult Expert Steve Hassan:
1. What is “mind control?” Is all “mind control” bad?
My mind control model outlines many key elements that need to be controlled: Behavior, Information, Thoughts and Emotions (BITE). If these four components can be controlled, then an individual’s identity can be systematically manipulated and changed. Destructive mind control takes the “locus of control” away from an individual. The person is systematically deceived about the beliefs and practices of the person (or group) and manipulated throughout the recruitment process- unable to make informed choices and exert independent judgment. The person’s identity is profoundly influenced through a set of social influence techniques and a “new identity” is created- programmed to be dependent on the leader or group ideology. The person can’t think for him or herself, but believes otherwise. The cult system reinforces an “illusion of control.” Please click here to review a detailed outline of my BITE mind control model.
“Mind control” techniques are not necessarily bad. Although I typically use the term “mind control” when describing unethical and abusive social influence, many of the techniques can be used ethically to promote positive spiritual and personal growth.
For example, prayer can be used ethically or it can be used destructively as a tool of manipulation and coercion. Praying with a person aloud, and asking “God’s blessing to help direct and guide him” (in an “open-ended” way) is just fine. Praying with a person, and asking God to “keep this person from making the mistake of leaving the group’s workshop and returning to Satan’s world” is unethical.
Meditation techniques can be used to build awareness and self control, or it can be used as a way of “thought-stopping”-undermining independent thinking and reality-testing. For example, if a person is having doubts and questions about a leader’s behavior, and meditates to get rid of “negativity”, it might stop the person from taking necessary action.
There are thousands of different “mind control” techniques which can be used for positive benefit. Some these techniques include: prayer, meditation, chants, singing songs, visualizations, affirmations, positive self-talk, breathing techniques, hypnosis, “speaking in tongues”, ecstatic dancing, music.
I personally enjoy the benefits of prayer, meditation, chanting, singing as well as self-hypnosis techniques. At my Jewish Temple ((www.tbzbrookline.org)) people are free to participate at their own comfort level. A healthy skepticism toward dogma and exclusive elitism is encouraged. People can and do ask penetrating questions. Rabbis Moshe Waldoks and Ellen Pildis usually respond with answers that include a variety of scholarly perspectives, and then offer their own point of view. There is an independent board of directors and a healthy system of checks and balances.
Being in control of your own mind includes: being in touch with your feelings; having the ability to question and think analytically; the freedom to act independently as well as the ability to look at issues from multiple perspectives.
If you have been involved with a person or group for a long time, can you have time away to take a vacation, visit friends or family, or just be by yourself? Are you irrationally afraid to really evaluate for yourself any critical information, including speaking with ex-members? Do you have the access to this “negative” information? If you are reading this on our web site, then you should be able to find out what former members and critics have to say. Then you can evaluate the information for yourself and make your own independent decisions.
2. What is the difference between a destructive cult and a benign cult?
A destructive cult is a pyramid-shaped authoritarian regime with a person or group of people that have dictatorial control. It uses deception in recruiting new members (e.g. people are NOT told up front what the group is, what the group actually believes and what will be expected of them if they become members). It also uses mind control techniques to keep people dependent and obedient. The BITE mind control model is my way of understanding the phenomenon. Dr. Robert Jay Lifton has his Eight Criteria for Thought Reform. Dr. Margaret Singer has her Six Conditions for understanding Destructive cults typically seek to “clone” recruits in the image of the cult leader, rather than respect and encourage their individuality, creativity and self-will.
Benign cult groups are any group of people who have a set of beliefs and rituals that are non-mainstream. As long as people are freely able to choose to join with full disclosure of the group’s doctrine and practices and can choose to disaffiliate without fear or harassment, then it doesn’t fall under the behavioral/ psychological destructive cult category.
Of course, there are destructive groups that are clearly anti-social teach hate and encourage criminal activity. A case by case evaluation must be made to determine if a particular group is using elements of the BITE model to recruit and control.
3. Are all destructive cults religious?
No. In addition to religious cults, there are psychotherapy cults, political cults and commercial cults. There are also personality cults, particularly if one person absolutely controls another (or a small group of people, such as in a family).
There are groups which combine all of these, especially when the group is large and has a variety of “fronts” or other entities. For example, the Moon organization combines most of these categories. However, because the central figure, Moon, claims to be the Messiah, the group is primarily thought of as a religious cult. This should not minimize the fact that Moon is very active in the world of politics and business. In fact Moon controls more business and political entities than he has religious ones.
4. Are terrorist groups cults?
Of course. I think it is more useful to think of them as destructive cults (with political and/or religious orientation) which advocate the use of violence.
Any pyramid structured authoritarian group which uses deception and mind control to recruit and indoctrinate their followers is considered to be a destructive cult.
While in the past, terrorist cults have focused on recruiting the disadvantaged, uneducated youth in recent years there has been an increased emphasis on recruiting middle-class, college educated individuals – including married individuals with families.
Apparently, Osama bin Laden and his Al Queda group is a well financed destructive cult which employs a whole host of classic mind control techniques in its training program. Suicide bombers undergo a thorough and extensive indoctrination, reportedly spending hours in a coffin reading from the Koran in an open grave. They are told that they are already dead and will be hailed in heaven for their heroic deeds. Like members of other destructive cults, they are programmed to think in simplistic black and white, us-versus-them terms. They not only depersonalize but also demonize their enemies.
It is crucial that we understand how cult functions in order to help neutralize this grave threat to the world
5. Are all cults equally as bad?
No, there are definitely wide variations among different organizations. Aum Shinrikyo, the Japanese “nerve gas” cult, used physical imprisonment, illegal drugs, and forms of torture. People would be forced to turn over all of their assets and cut off from their families and friends. If members tried to leave the group or oppose its leadership, they would be threatened and in some cases, killed. This is extreme when compared with large group “training” programs which use hypnotic techniques to get you to believe the leader is the “messiah” and which inculcates the membership to recruit all of their families and friends.
When a cult figure gains absolute political power over a people or a country, typically the BITE mind control model is put into place. Perceived enemies are imprisoned or killed. Free press is abolished. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Hussein are all examples of political cult leaders. When you compare the multitudes of people killed by political cult leader’s commands, the 39 deaths of Heaven’s Gate seem insignificant.
6. Is it possible for someone to be in a one-on-one mind control dependency on someone?
Yes. In Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves I write about some of my cases involving this form of personal control. Sometimes, it can be an authoritarian family system. Sometimes it can be husband, wife, “friend” or relative. Many times it can be someone in some other position of authority. Battered-wife syndrome and prostitutes controlled by an abusive pimp also fit this category. These situations are sometimes far more destructive than involvement in a larger group because all of the energy of the abusive authority figure is concentrated on the victim.
7. Why do destructive cults say that you are anti-religious or bigoted?
Destructive cults understand that to keep believers dependent on them, they must try to neutralize sources of criticism. Information control is one of the four main components of mind control. One destructive group, Scientology, even goes so far to have “dead agents packs” for their critics in an attempt to destroy their credibility. Their terminology is revealing.
I am a human rights activist who very much values my spirituality as the core of my existence. My work has received endorsements from virtually every major religious denomination. I definitely believe in a God who created us with free-will and wants us to use our minds to live lives of love, peace, beauty, and goodness. My work has grown out of my own desire to grow in understanding and to help people to realize that they need not be psychologically constricted.
If you were to only read and accept as true what cults say about me, then you would think that I am a kidnapper and religious bigot.
The truth is that I have never kidnapped anyone and I support people’s rights to believe whatever they want to believe. The truth is that when I got out of the Moonies in 1976, I was involved in some involuntary deprogrammings of fellow cult members for about one year. I never abducted anyone. I was present along with family members to talk to the cult member about why I left the Moonies. Most of these cases worked. A few did not, and the people returned to the Moonies and wrote “affidavits” saying that I did these horrible things to them. Look at the dates. It is important to note that I have never been charged either criminally or civilly for any deprogramming case (or for anything else for that matter).
Of course, over the years I have been accused of doing other involuntary deprogrammings in order to create the illusion that I am a continued threat. The truth is that I stopped doing involuntaries and have been speaking out against deprogramming since 1980. I have written two books, which give much more detail about my history and my approach to counseling cult members.
8. Are you a deprogrammer or exit-counselor?
If the term deprogramming means abducting people and holding them against their wills to help them exit a cult, the answer is NO!
Some people like to use the term deprogrammer in a positive way – as someone who helps people get out of cults. I feel that the term has become too associated with negatives. Besides, I do not think brainwashing and mind control is like computer programming. I think it is a “dissociative disorder.” Helping a person recover from detrimental effects requires much more than counter-programming. My approach empowers the person to regain control of their own mind, rather than just attacking the cult belief system or the cult identity.
When I wrote my first book, Combatting Cult Mind Control in 1988, I described what I did as exit-counseling. But I ran into trouble with this terminology when working with active cult members. When they would agree to meet with me, often at the request of a family member, I would tell them that I was there to help them with information and counseling to decide if they wanted to reevaluate and leave their group. When they asked me why it was called exit-counseling, I realized that they had a point. It could be called exit-counseling at the point that a person was asking for help to leave a group, but not before. I also decided to abandon this term because people who were still doing involuntary deprogramming started calling themselves exit-counselors. I wanted nothing to do with them.
NOTE: Please understand that there are individuals who still call themselves exit-counselors who are reputable and will only do voluntary cases. In addition there is a new term that several people who prefer the term Thought-Reform consultants. Most of these people are former cult members and are not mental health professionals. Nevertheless, they are excellent at providing information and most do valuable work.
I am a licensed mental health counselor. I received my Master’s degree from Cambridge College in 1985, and have taken the time and undertaken the expense to receive counseling training from some of the top people in America and the world. I have experience doing individual, couple and family counseling. I teach communications techniques and strategies. I advocate respectful, loving, compassionate and legal method of influence. I call it the “Strategic Interaction Approach (SIA).”
9. What should I do if I suspect a family member or friend is getting involved with a destructive cult?
My best advice is to get help before you do or say anything. Continue to act naturally. Learn before you act. Think before you speak. Adopt a “curious, yet concerned” attitude with the person you suspect is in trouble.
Don’t get hysterical in front of the individual. Don’t attack or confront. Don’t ask him or her if they are in a cult.
Position yourself as a possible “recruit” and try to elicit as much information as possible. Ask questions in a friendly manner and insist on getting specific answers. Don’t settle for global generalizations or evasions. Ask for any literature, but be cautious about going to meetings without getting properly prepared first. From time to time I hear stories of people falling victim when trying to help someone else.
If a group is legitimate, it will stand up to scrutiny. Members will be forthcoming with information and that information will be verified by facts. If a group is legitimate, they will not pressure people to make commitments before there is complete disclosure. If a group is legitimate, it will not lie nor will it use phobias to enslave new members.
Get information. Maintain contact. Try to get the person to engage with you in a process of researching the group objectively. Talk with former members, particularly former leaders if you can. Destructive cults vilify critical former members and make up stories to make them untrustworthy. While that might be the case, use your own good judgment to listen to all of the facts objectively. Make your best decision based on your experience and the information you have collected. Periodically, as new information or experiences present themselves, you might review your evaluation.
Schedule an initial consultation with Steven Hassan
10. What should I do if I can’t find information about a particular person or destructive cult?
Search our web site as well as other web sites mentioned as resources. We can also produce custom research reports using the extensive files in our office and our extensive network of contacts. For pricing information, email us at center@freedomofmind.com or call 617 628-9918.
11. What is SIA? I have questions about the Strategic Interacton Approach.
Please see the Strategic Interaction Approach FAQ, available as a free sample of Steven Hassan’s book Releasing the Bonds. You can also see and hear Steven Hassan talk about the Strategic Interaction Approach in this video.
12. What is BITE? I have questions about the BITE model.
Please see Mind Control – the BITE model, a free sample of Steven Hassan’s book Releasing the Bonds.
13. What are the warning signs of a potentially destructive situation?
You can use this evaluation checklist to begin to assess the situation you, or someone you know, is in.
14. How do they gain mind control? What are the stages of mind control?
See Steve’s FAQ answer as well as Mind Control – the BITE model, a free sample from Steve’s book Releasing the Bonds.
15. I’m about to join a group/cult/organization: what should I look out for? What should I be aware of?
Thank you for exposing this violent misogynist. I’ve asked the DC police to arrest him for inciting felony sexual and physical assault against women with his comments encouraging men to “cum in her mouth and then hold her mouth closed” and to “hit women and have them not call the police.”
He is a vile and violent person who is doing a grave disservice to the misguided men who follow him and to any women who encounters him and the men he “teaches”.
For him and his posters to hide behind anonymity is unacceptable. If they’re so proud and unashamed of the violence they preach and allegedly practice, let them use their real names.
LR EDIT: No problem, Denise. Thank you for posting your PROFESSIONAL opinion on the Psychology behind Game. However, I think we both know that even if every Evolutionary Psychologist confirms that Game is simply a poor-man’s misuse of human brainwashing techniques and CERTAINLY psychic suggestion as well……that not a simple follower of Game will EVER admit that the professionals on the human mind MIGHT be a little more knowledgeable than a washed-up reality star and a guy who wrote a nice fictional biography one time.
These men REFUSE to study ANY real Psychology just to determine exactly WHAT techniques their teachers are teaching or even to validate the claims they are making. They don’t WANT help. They don’t WANT an answer. They certainly don’t want truth. They want to believe everything they have been told.
That is why you’ve gotten such ridiculous emails and comments…..even with the degree to back it up, if you disagree with them….you MUST be AGAINST them. You MUST be a hateful Feminist. And most importantly…..you MUST be a woman who secretly WANTS to be manipulated and treated like shit (because any other answer might shatter the carefully crafted mirror that their Gurus have taught them to look into).
You may be right.
However, I’m an optimist.
I do think that there must be some of them who are not yet fully brainwashed or in such pathological condition that they will snap out of it when confronted with credible information.
Please send me your email to: Denise@LoveAndWorkCoach.com when you get a chance.
Thanks, LR
Denise
“Thank you for posting your PROFESSIONAL opinion on the Psychology behind Game.” Lol. For a PROFESSIONAL Ms. Romano ccertainly has a lot of free time on her hands. I can’t get my dentist to call me back in person, much less get him to post a lengthy internet post on New Years day. Ms. Romano may have some letters after her name, which no doubt she is very proud of, but let us know the next time your asked to to appear in court as an expert witness in ”Organizational Psychology”.
LR EDIT: Yup. Keep posting the childish and uneducated insults. I invite you to attempt to “debunk” even one of these alleged “lies” that Denise and the rest of the Medical Community are apparently feeding you.
So her free time means that she no longer has a degree in Psychology??? Oh, wait no…..you were just attempting to make a completely unrelated and childish remark because you lack a real argument or education to do otherwise.
Don’t you people have an “educated frontman” like most Salesgroups do? You know like a “Figurehead” who is good at “Linguistics” or something to make you look less stupid and lacking in logical thought than you actually are?
Oh, that’s wait…..those people wouldn’t speak for you. They aren’t your voice. They don’t “defend” you. I wonder why they aren’t here or anywhere else backing up your argument???
Oh, that’s right…..because you didn’t send them your monthly membership check in the mail yet, that’s why
Yes, those of us who are at times able to make our own work and play schedules can choose our priorities.
Exposing the violent hate-group and cultish aspects of weidmann, lovesystems, and other PUA and MRA groups is a work priority right now.
As for expertness, see: http://mhprofessional.com/product.php?isbn=0071700811
LR EDIT: No, Denise it’s not that these criminals EXIST…..it’s that we are women and therefore MUST have been handed our jobs by Feminism, have nothing to do at work, and have access to more “free time” than men do because we are spoiled little children.
Sorry, just saving the misogynists the time it will take to say what they REALLY mean out loud.
(Couldn’t be that some of us just have access to the internet and MAKE time to address what is a serious matter. Any parent who has a growing son or daughter would be concerned as to what the PUA community represents. I certainly don’t want my son to be brainwashed by some idiots who prey on their own gender…..and if I had a daughter I’d certainly want to protect her from these predators who want to victimize and disrespect her. There are plenty of men AND women who are NOT criminals and predators and I’m glad that eventually Darwinism and the American Justice System will wipe these few rejects off the earth and allow intelligent human thought to once again prevail.)
After reading this I agree with what Mr.M said and cannot put a 40 yr old guy down for living the successful bachelor lifestyle….the only person who looks stupid after all this is the author.
What kind of person puts in this much effort to expose a guy like he was Hitler’s son, is anyone gonna die as a result of being with this guy? Roissy will continue to have success with women regardless of this negative (chilidish and a bit racist) publicity.
This is a typical PUA hater response, seen it many times before and likely to see again in the future because if there’s one thing that will not stop is the growth of this community and the haters that come with it. As for the causes of people hating PUAs is for another discussion.
My post in summary:
- The sheer length of the arguement and volume of content of hatred over a guy becoming successful with women leads me to say: The author is probably misinformed of what the premises of PUA is (too many dont know what it is), the author herself has strong opinions on HOW men and women “should” interact and disapproves of this trend or has in fact had interactions with PUAs or “players” and had a negative experience with them….all of of which lead to her article on Roissy.
p.s.
The pro-author posts after mine will disagree with me no matter what relevant points I made above because of the position I take, so take it away guys…..
LR EDIT: Actually, what I was going to say is “go read Roissy’s blog for about two hours” and you will see exactly what everyone is talking about:
Posts that call George Sodini a “hero” for murdering innocent women (and subsequently using it as “fair warning” to women to NOT continue to withhold sex from men).
Posts about “Cousin-Fucking” and why it’s totally fine to have sex with immediate relatives (and specifically one that is underage)
Posts that EXTOL the virtues of physically and verbally ABUSING women.
Posts that EXTOL the virtues of “spreading your seed and abandoning the resulting children” and becoming a deadbeat.
Posts that EXTOL the virtues of “using ANY means necessary to get sex from a woman”
Posts that EXTOL FORCING a woman to “enjoy” anything you do TO her even if it is done using intimidating, physical abuse, and even flat out rape.
Posts that EXTOL the virtues of “young girls” and having sex with minor (including more than a few posts that have attached PHOTOS of 12 and 13 year old girls–(that he was later forced to remove because it is considered Attempted Child Pornography and IS illegal)
The list goes on and on…… Anyone who has read at Roissy has visible PROOF that these are things he EXTOLS and ENCOURAGES his readers to do. This would be considered offensive by ANY person who is not a sick and depraved individual. I’d encourage you to go read there before you come and crucify ME for being rightfully horrified that men like him are even allowed to live as free men. He belongs in a Federal Penitentiary to protect women, children, family, minors, and even other men from sexual deviants/criminals like Roissy.
Oh yeah, and there’s this as well:
http://www.whistleblowerlegal.com/cases/columbia.html
Yes, anyone whose visited your site knows you’ve written a book. So has Paris Hilton. Apparently you and “Lady Raine” have the luxury of being unencumbered by a “time clock” and can devote your time to lofty aspirations and the greater common good.
LR EDIT: Right. Or anyone who has a cell phone and has access to the internet anytime and any place. Was that supposed to be a zinger? Or just the 5th or 6th completely childish insult flung at me or Denise because you lack any sort of factual argument to discredit anything we have said?
What was the point of this comment? You are saying “anyone can write a book” I assume? Oh, good then you also agree that any ass-clown like Mystery can write a book…..then go on a reality show that PAYS the women on it to make sure his techniques “work”. You are right….anyone can write a book. At least Denise has the credentials to back it up. As well as the credentials of the many Psychologists who agree with her.
I find it funny that LR and Denise are questioning the credentials of those who utilize seduction techniques when neither they, nor a great deal of the people and organizations they hang out with have appropriate credentials in psychology, psychiatrity, or neuroscience to be able to speak on these subject with that authority they claim. For instance let’s take an “expert” on Denise’s site – Jackson Katz. The guy has degrees in education and philosophy. I’m afraid that doesn’t strike me as helpful to his claims of being an expert on the psychology of abuse. Denise herself while at least having degrees in psychology (not a PHD though) has no specialized degree in the psychology of abuse. Oh I could easily go on – most DV counselors have no degrees in anything whatsoever let alone psychology – but it’s enough simply to point out that attacking degree is as likely to backfire on both of you as it is to advance your cause.
More to the point, I find Denise herself guilty of emotionally abusive tactics towards many of the PUA’s she claims to want so much to understand. Savoy has printed some of her letters ( I literally have been corresponding with her for a few months, I had no idea she was doing all this stuff until the last few days)at http://therealsavoy.blogspot.com/2009/12/letters-from-crazy-people.html
and then, despite him asking her not to email him again she posted this :
http://therealsavoy.blogspot.com/2009/12/crazy-lady-returns.html. I’m sure she should know that could be considered “stalking” behaviour, even though its only emails on the internet – people such as her helped make sure that quite a few overbroad definitions of abuse have been written into law. I find her posts on other blogs to be quite inflammatory, lacking in the rigour that yours often display if someone challenges you on this point or that. She also tends to borgify others, rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt. How this is supposed to demonstrate her “emotional intelligence” and “Non violent communication” skills is beyond me.
The rest of this post is to Denise, LadyRaine, so it doesn’t really apply to you. I am grateful to you in that based on our past experiences I think you’ll indulge me in putting it up.
Denise:
When you first responded to my post you seemed to be respectful and determined to listen to me. Perhaps this was from your desire to “show me the light” of NVC, but even so your respectful and compassionate tone is what caused me to trust that you would carry on a conversation in good faith and that we both might learn from each other even if (and this was always a possibility) in the end neither of our minds were changed on the subject of game. I hoped by our email chats that I would learn something about NVC and that you could show me where such things will help me attract the interest of women. Of course I didn’t really think you’d succeed, but I did expect that maybe there was something I could use in my game as I try to be an ethical gamer or in a rrelationship. Indeed looking over your site, as I have many times, there is much useful there and even though I really HAVE been exposed to lots of your stuff in other guises, I’ve found a few things on there that have been new to me.
However in the months we have had our email conversation -interrupted on both our ends by personal circumstances- you haven’t really ever tried to build your case about EQ or NVC. I still don’t know how using NVC is going to help me get noticed by some woman on the street, in a bookstore, in a club or library. I don’t know how increasing my EQ is supposed to help me impress ladies. After all, while both EQ and NVC as well as ethical use of game techniques might help me IN a relationship – one has to get one’s feet in the door first. I’ve found game can help me do this. You so far have offered me nothing as an alternative. Instead when you have sent me mails I’ve noticed that you often haven’t answered questions I posed to you in them, and you seem to have also misunderstood several things I have said to you.
I suppose we could work all that out, but then I look about the web and I see you trying to do cruel things to someone who has done nothing to you r/l (Roissy) , attacking other people who neither know you nor Roissy, making grandiouse proclamations about abuse that insult and blame those you contact, and generally trying to wage war on people who have not declared war on you. I was able to open up to you about some things, but now I see all this and I wonder that if I cross any of Denise’s lines with my opinions will she try to have me arrested, fired, or basically do any of those things that the most evil director of HR (think Cat in Dilbert) might want to do?
I don’t know where your counseling skills went. Perhaps due to circumstances I know not you are taking out your anger on something in your life in this medium. Mostly, except to Roissy you seem to be harmless enough, but you are getting a bad reputation and not doing anything to farther what you do have that is useful and good. I do wish you’d consider that.
LR EDIT: I cannot speak for Denise, Sarah, or anyone else here but I CAN speak for myself when I say this:
No one is trying to say that there is “No Psychological Fact” behind the things about Game that “work”. We KNOW they work. THAT is the point. They work because they ARE using REAL Psychological Techniques in applying “Game”.
I am not trying to say that they are not. What I AM trying to say is that they are using the SAME “Psychological Techniques” that Cults use to brainwash their “victims”. They are MISUSING the Studies of the Human Mind and Psychology to MANIPULATE both the women they are preying on……and the men who are buying their information.
Anyone who has a belief or education in Psychology WOULD be offended by this for a very good reason!!! They are doing the same thing that some women do when they “manipulate” the laws favoring women who really WERE abused…..to work for women who were NOT abused. (just for an example)
They are using Psychological FACT and STUDY to lure and hook men into wanting and needing their advice. The very same “techniques” they are teaching PUA’s…..are the “techniques” they are using to hook the men who trust them and believe in what they are teaching.
They are misusing the principles of Psychology and Medical Fact…..to brainwash men out of their money…..and to exact their own personal brand of revenge on the “Alpha Female” who once hurt them. THIS is why it’s so offensive to OTHER people who are educated in Psychology.
Everything that was studied to HELP and IMPROVE human interactions…..is now being misused to trick men and women who are NOT as “educated in Psychological techniques” as they are. They are also using the same technique to back up why you shouldn’t LISTEN to the other Psychological Professionals who condemn them.
THAT is why it “bothers me so much”. If these Salesmen of Snake Oil DIDN’T understand basic Psychology it wouldn’t be nearly as offensive.
I genuinely hope that makes some sense and answers your question a bit (at least on MY reason for why it’s so horrible and shameful of them).
Would you want your daughter to date roissy or someone like him?
Do you disagree that “cum in her mouth and hold her mouth shut so she has to swallow it” is not violence?
If there are PUAs and PUA groups that do not advocate violence against women, one would think you would want to differentiate yourself from the violence and assulat that roissy is in fact advising men to use against women.
There are many more examples of this on his blog, but I’ll leave it at this one.
The cherry picking from credible theories to support the violent hatred roissy and others peddle is astoundingly illogical for men who claim a monopoly on critical thinking.
There’s the “natural drive of men” but that icky body hair on women just makes you boys squeamish if you happen to catch her shaving or peeing or doing other things that humans are designed to do.
There’s the constant misuse and misunderstanding of what Evolutionary Psychology actually is – and ironically – a refusal to evolve. You boys love to try to justify your dominance theories by clinging to misinformation you’ve been given about “male brain” and “female brain” as well as your “primal brain”.
Don’t take my word for it.
Read the FBI’s paper on hate groups.
Read Steve Hassan’s definitions of destructive cults.
Read actual Evolutionary Psychologists (and do consider what the world evolution means – hint: it doesn’t mean you get to choose a period of time when humans were at a certain point in evolution and then stick with that in a static way just to justify abusing women emotionally, psychologically, verbally, sexually, and physically).
And then there’s the really hilarious quotes from men on roissy’s blog stating that “scripture” says women should submit to their husbands.
The bible is a violent fictional document that has been mistranslated over thousands of years by men who deleted from and added to it to suit their own personal gain – not unlike every PUA theory!
What we really have here is a situation wherein the men who teach game and exploit other men out of their money, time, and psychological and emotional health just to make an easy living off of them.
In doing so, these men are harmed and the women whom they encounter are at risk of being harmed because the “methods” and “techniques” are inherently abusive, manipulative, and in the case of those suggested by roissy, I put forth – criminal.
You can point to whatever you want to attempt to justify these techniques. However, cherry picking from theories and distorting those theories is not intellectually honest.
It’s rather irrational.
The more fervently you are compelled to defend roissy and the PUA industry, the more brainwashed you likely are.
What is truly amazing is that you boys who profess to be so strong and alpha have made it clear that you cannot function or co-exist with women when the playing field is level.
You have to have the upper hand, maintain the upper hand, enforce your upper hand with pre-meditated manipulation (and according to roissy, physical force), and you are so insecure that you cannot just stand on your own as the man you are and enjoy yourself and the women around you as an equal. Nope, that is too scary for you boys.
Millions of other men can and they do so without game because they know that game is inherently violent and just a snake oil industry designed to fleece the pockets of men who need compassion and actual skill development based on actual, credible science.
It isn’t that you don’t have game; it’s that you need to learn actual human intrapersonal and interpersonal relating skills, which you can do for alot less money than the PUA industry wants you to believe.
LR EDIT: Well then I can see you ARE offended by the same things that offend me. The flagrant MISUSE of Psychology to prey on people who are looking for an answer (whether it’s the men using Game….or the women they are using it on.)
“What was the point of this comment? You are saying “anyone can write a book” I assume? Oh, good then you also agree that any ass-clown like Mystery can write a book”. Yes, pretty much, thats exactly what I was saying. Maybe even you will write a book. You can call it “How I was lucky enough to only date guys with 8 inch peckers while saving the world from injustice”
LR EDIT: Again…..way to take an honest personal anecdote that was meant to be nothing more than …..an honest personal anecdote and somehow try to twist it into me being out to get men???
Considering that I have mostly ONLY male friends….adore men as a gender….and think that “Radical Feminists” who like to live as “victims in waiting” are just as vile and twisted as the men using “Game”…..I don’t really see what point you are trying to make?
Why would I write a book when I’ve admitted that I “don’t even like to write” and have NEVER EVER had any intention of writing or blogging professionally (and certainly not for profit)? I am still humbly amazed each and every day that ANYONE AT ALL reads my blog.
And the reason that this “bothers me” is because large masses of people (whether male or female) who attempt to “play victim” so that they can excuse their behavior, prejudices, and laziness DO affect each and every one of us. The bottom-feeders of society negatively affect us all and the PUA Guru’s who are making money off these guys are simply adding to the problem of “leeching off” others that has become so rampant in society.
Of course it’s something I want to address. It affects each and every hard working, honest, somewhat-moral and responsible adult man or woman on earth. These people who prey on other humans because they are too lazy to become a disciplined and responsible adult are the reason our society is the way it is today. Pretending it DOESN’T affect me would be delusional and irresponsible of me.
Clarence, you more PUA’s had the e-person of guys like Mu, Maurice or yourself, I seriously doubt if Denise or Ladyraine would have as much of a problem them. It’s the hatred of women that some of them preech in thier own little way that gets feminists and non feminists alike worked up and with good reason. There are some real loose cannons online looking for someone to lead them.
LR EDIT: Yup. No one is attempting to say that “Game” is MEANT to be “evil, manipulative, and misogynistic”. However….I think that the original Salesmen of Game are counting on the fact that A LOT of men will read into it and come to their own conclusions on what it is “meant for”….and are looking to capitalize on what “misinterpretation” they are getting out of it.
Some PUA’s are essentially COUNTING ON it being misinterpreted, misused, and abused to make their money off the men who they KNOW (by using the very same Psychology that they are teaching) will “take it to a dark place” in their minds. Guys like Roissy…..and MRA sites that extol the “misinterpretation” are exacting the obvious passive-aggressive marketing scheme that guys like Neil Strauss and Mystery are profiting from.
Your arguement about real legal issues (putting women into real physical danger, underage sex, Extol etc) is far beyond the scope of PUAs and “Game” and I fail to see how this has anything to do with Lovesystems and this community.
LR if you havent noticed psychological studies on how to manipulate human behave occurs IN ALL apects of sale and advertisement from TVs and magazines to the internet. You say that men are “tricked” into learning game, if this were true the men would write negative reviews on their learning experience and Lovesystems does offer a refund on Everything they do….guess what….almost nobody needs it.
Look guys if there is a “serious legal issue” spilling onto our streets, clubs and social circles I think everyone would catch on to every single event which would lead to police interference HOWEVER this has not happened because in this game of male and female relations the women ultimately decides if a sexual encounter will ensue. And in the rare cases of the woman being harmed in a relationship, that’s when the lady calls you/police/lawyer to deal with the problem.
End of.
LR EDIT: First of all, I didn’t specifically mention “Love Systems” at all. Denise did.
Yes I’m well aware of marketing techniques….but what does that have to do with Game? Sales of things like fast food, bad infomercial products, and t.v. shows are hardly “encouraging criminal acts” with THEIR advertising and target audience.
Are they right to brainwash even for JUST monetary profit? Of course not. But they are not attempting to get people to commit crimes and abuse others for the sake of “acquiring a Burger King Meal”, either.
The last part of your statement made my mouth drop at the sheer retardation: “…the RARE cases where women are harmed in a relationship”. Are you really that stupid? Do you honestly think that those are “imaginary cases”? If they were “so rare” there wouldn’t be extensive laws against such a thing.
Furthermore, you are STILL functioning on the logic that “if it works then it is morally acceptable, healthy for HER, healthy for ME, and an indicator of a happy life.” That is a very scary and delusional “logic” to base your life on.
You are basically trying to say that “It isn’t a crime if you don’t get caught.” So ONLY if a woman (or man) call the police and have the person ARRESTED does it constitute as a “crime”?
You also say that the ONLY way the moral principles are grounded in truth is if the man buying the information doesn’t get “results”???
Ummm….yeah….that sort of retarded logic only works on people who are already psychologically disturbed AND brainwashed (like the men who are buying into Game).
Denise, why didn’t you address Clarence’s concern over your own stalking behavior?
I just read Nick Savoy’s blog post – http://therealsavoy.blogspot.com/2009/12/crazy-lady-returns.html – and I too would like to know why Denise isn’t publicly condemning Lady Raine’s anti-semitism.
Denise posts on this blog so much you’d think it was her second home. But not a peep about LR’s “Jew this” and “Jew that”. Here’s a quick link to plug into google:
“jew” site:ladyraine.wordpress.com
Nick Savoy might be lying, but he says he doesn’t know Roissy, has no relationship with him, and seemed happy enough in the comments part of the post to say he doesn’t agree with those comments. You have a much closer relationship and not a peep about 28 separate mentions, including “jew nose” (to describe someone she doesn’t like) and “I’d murder 10 Jews without a second thought.”
Hypocrisy?
LR EDIT: Ummm my comment about “Jew-Nose” was directed at….MYSELF!!! Now I have to explain being….err…anti-semitic to ….MYSELF???? Get a freaking grip, seriously.
Oh, really? “I’d murder 10 Jews if I had to” was certainly something I said. Something I said about WHAT THE COMMON GERMAN PEOPLE OF WW TIMES THOUGHT AND HAD TO DO TO PROTECT THEIR OWN FAMILIES FROM BEING SLAUGHTERED BY THEIR OWN NAZI GOVERNMENT!
For anyone who would like to know what my “comment” was in it’s entirety…..it was an example of me saying that: The common German people of those times did NOT have the option to go against the Nazi’s. They were not a part of a “democracy” that allowed them to disagree with their government. They were ONLY given the option to “Slaughter a bunch of Jews or watch your family be murdered right along side of them.” And therefore, the common German parent made the same decision that I WOULD MAKE AS A MOTHER/FATHER TO PROTECT MY FAMILY FROM THE CERTAIN DEATH THAT WOULD HAVE COME FROM GOING AGAINST THEIR DICTATOR AND THEIR GOVERNMENT.
But, sure…..why don’t we focus on something that is totally unrelated to Game, Denise’s points, my points, or the subject of gender issues at all.
Gosh, and you guys say the Feminists are the “Masters of Misdirection”!
Its pretty straight forward Ray Ray, she has her own aganda and its painfully obvious that if you stroke lady raine’s ego and imply that she’s smart, you have an ally in LR and another podium. Finding LR’s flaws would only muddy her own moral waters.
LR EDIT: Actually, you are attempting to discredit my moral character instead of my actual OPINION on the subject at hand. The reason you will fail at this angle is because at NO POINT have I EVER claimed to be “unflawed”, morally superior, or even intellectually superior to anyone at all. I have openly admitted my faults and if I were SO worried about the way anyone viewed me morally, I wouldn’t openly share stories that make me look less than perfect nor would I allow unmoderated commenting on my blog.
Many people have attacked my morals, my intellect, and even my lifestyle……but those are not things that worry me because I am not here to feign being “morally superior” to anyone else. I am here to say that I am NOT morally superior and STILL can see how sick and twisted these methods are even though I am FAR from being a pinnacle of morality myself.
I know what I am and what I am not….and “morally superior” has NEVER been one of my claims. My only claim is that I HAVE studied Psychology and the Human Mind and can RECOGNIZE the misuse of the very subjects that I (and people like Denise) have studied.
So if you are attempting to hurl some sort of “big wrench” in the gears….attacking my character won’t get you far because I don’t have a dog in that fight anyway. Next time try attacking a claim that I actually HAVE made….or better yet….addressing the actual TOPIC we are discussing here on my immoral and unholy blog
PS: You could “stroke my ego” ALLLLLL DAY but it doesn’t change the fact that I don’t HAVE an agenda. What is it? Is it making money? Nope. Remaining Anonymous? Nope. Promoting Feminism? Nope (because I don’t agree with MOST of the more aggressive Feminists views or opinions) So what is it? Do I hate men? Obviously not. I have openly extolled the virtues of having male friends, dating, and even how much I prefer the fact that I work with ONLY men. Seriously, what’s my agenda? I’d like to know!
In my world (my social circle and everyone I meet): Yes it is very very rare to hear about women being harmed in relationships so those issues need to be addressed by people specialised in those areas: Police, lawyers and private advice….I guess you’re right I am a disturbed, brain-washed retard for not being subjected to this horror you face day by day.
LR EDIT: Ummm police and lawyers are not “Psychological Professionals” that are trained to do anything except stop/prosecute a crime that is being committed, not diagnose the criminal behind the crime. Only a Psychologist is trained to do that (like Denise) and she IS addressing those concerns here. Did you miss that part, somehow?
As for the rest, I don’t think “many of us” are subject to a circle of PUA’s everyday in our normal lives, therefore pretending it doesn’t EXIST just because it doesn’t directly interfere with our lives each day IS retarded in logic at the very least. It’s good that you don’t see this in couples everyday because that means at least the couples YOU know are smart enough to hide their “abuse” (whether on the part of the man or the woman) instead of proudly spouting it publicly…..(or spouting it publicly behind an anonymous name because they KNOW they are a sick and depraved criminal)
These paragraphs are an example of where I believe you’re going wrong: “Furthermore, you are STILL functioning on the logic that “if it works then it is morally acceptable, healthy for HER, healthy for ME, and an indicator of a happy life.” That is a very scary and delusional “logic” to base your life on.”
and
“Ummm….yeah….that sort of retarded logic only works on people who are already psychologically disturbed AND brainwashed (like the men who are buying into Game).”
Ok from reading a few lines I have written here on this page, you really dont have enough reasoning to come to a conclusion of how my mind perceives a good lifestyle; dont read in too much into what a writer puts down and judge their character instantly. I know you come across many people and make quick decisions on who you believe they are and what arguements they support but this attribute will not help you win an arguement over the net and will pile support against you. Savoy, the owner of the number one dating company in the area of pickup deems you “crazy”….after this and your response I agree with him.
LR EDIT: Yes. You MUST be right. Because the “number one dating company in the area” isn’t making MONEY off of discounting the negative about them, right? Oh wait…..they ARE! They have everything to gain by discounting people like Denise, myself, or any other person who speaks against them. They have money to lose. People like me don’t. So tell me….who is likely to be more honest? The person who is making money off of you BELIEVING THEM……or the person who is NOT making money off of you believing HER? The answer is obvious to anyone with sense in their head. (Which is why I called you LOGIC retarded. Even though you presented it as me calling YOU retarded.
Furthermore, I find that when people who I have never heard of, blogged about, spoken to, or even knew EXISTED post something about me…..that means that I’m clearly touching on something that they are all sensitive to: The fact that they are salesmen with something to gain by you NOT believing anyone but them. Way to be sheep. Baaaaaa!
In learning to interact with women, results may differ from one man to another, each person has their own goal of what they want to get out of a workshop.
Lastly I believe our arguements are overlapping into areas that neither of us are concerned with, hence a couple of misunderstandings.
My concern: Lovesystems is the number one in this area of dating (Pickup) and you are arguing against the PUA community…..but not lovesystems itself?
LR EDIT: OH my! So what you are trying to say is that perhaps there ARE women who’s “idea of what a successful relationship is” would AGREE with you and say “Certainly we ladies EXPECT to be lied to, manipulated, and abused in a successful and healthy relationship”. Right. Find me even ONE of those ladies and you’ll have an argument. Oh wait, you CANNOT do that because for some wild and crazy reason…..PUA’s don’t TELL the women they are dating that they are being Gamed. Hmmmm…..that’s weird….you’d think that if “Game” was geared toward “encouraging healthy adult relationships” that the Gurus and Practitioners of Game would HAPPILY and OPENLY tell their partner all about it, right?
Not hide it like it’s some sort of CRIME, eh?
Oh….no wait…..
LR, you’re being incredibly naive (which I doubt; you seem intelligent) or disingenous.
You use “Jew” as an insult. You don’t like Jimmy, so you call him a Jew. Even though he’s (apparently) not Jewish, it’s a better-sounding insult than “jerk”. And then in case anyone missed the point, you add “Jew” to the search labels.
I’m not Jewish myself, so the ad-hominem attacks (like w/ David above) won’t apply. But go ahead – tell me how awful I am by calling me a Jew. Or gay. Or black. Or, while we’re at it, a woman. Yup. “That Ray-Ray is so stupid he argues like a woman.” Hmmm. I’ll have another helping of hypocrisy please.
LR EDIT: Um, I don’t even know anymore what you are accusing me of anymore. I posted what I felt would be funny….the REASON it is funny is because Roissy is known for being anti-semitic himself and therefore is he WAS really a Jew….it would be rather amusing, then wouldn’t it?
However….since you don’t care about the OBVIOUS reasons and don’t know the backstory or understand the joke at all….I won’t bother explaining myself further. If you want to believe that I “hate Jews” then by all means, continue to tell yourself that because I don’t particularly care what you or anyone else reading here thinks my intention WAS.
If saying “Lady Raine hates Jews” makes you feel justified in NOT having anything else to add to the actual discussion we are having here then by all means you may go around and tell EVERYONE what a jew-hater I am and I STILL won’t care a bit….know why???
Because my moral character is and never has been the issue here and if AGREEING to the ridiculous “Waaaaah LR isn’t PC!” shrieks with “Fine, I’m a jew-hater then” will shut you people up and let us get back to the discussion then I’m more than happy to go along with you.
Once again….I don’t care if you are Black, White, Jewish, or Christian….if you are attacking others (like Roissy) in a way that ISN’T very “PC” you are going to get the same treatment in return. Didn’t you ever hear the expression: “Ask me a stupid question and you’ll get a stupid answer”????
I have to assume not.
(For the record, I don’t think you are stupid for being Black, White, Male, Female, or Jewish….I think you are stupid for focusing on the political incorrectness of my blog that was never intended to be politically correct in the first place.)
Ray-ray–
I’m not being “naive” at all. I am OPENLY admitting to NOT being PC. You know why? Because the same criticism that I show to Jews, Men, Blacks, or otherwise is the SAME criticism I show to my fellow White People and Women. I have PUBLICLY stated that “White People are the purveyors of the most sick and twisted crimes known to man such as child-related molestation, pornography, and even ‘work-related’ violent crimes.”
I call the bullshit on EVERY race and creed and culture and I also call it on myself (and other women). I am just as critical and NOT “PC” when I am speaking to hardcore Feminists and man-haters who extol crying false rape, working the laws that favor women, and ESPECIALLY living off of a man just because the marriage laws MIGHT allow you to do so……
That’s why I say that I don’t even know what you are accusing me of….. I have never WANTED to be viewed as “morally superior” and especially NOT as “Politically Correct” because then I think my blog/me will lack the HONESTY that I try to blog using.
I am presenting myself as nothing more than another educated person who likes to blog, likes to debate, and cares about issues that affect my fellow man/woman from a “layman’s perspective”. NOT from a “Mother Teresa-Like” false moral superiority that so many writers/bloggers are guilty of.
So if you want to crucify me for that you are by all means welcome, but THAT is not going to be what cripples me or my blog.
Like I said….I have no dog in that fight.
Just understand that until you have “gotten to know” me…..you ARE assuming things that you do not actually know (and are therefore guilty of the very same things you are attempting to accuse me of).
Im gonna go ahead and sit in your seat for a moment (its far easier to scrutinize than to come defend your arguement and you do it terribly), ill organising this in order of importance:
“Practitioners of Game would HAPPILY and OPENLY tell their partner all about it, right?”
Xion’s Edit: I do tell my partners I am apart of this community and I tell them about how it has change my life for the better. They have all accepted it as a part of who I am the same way I accept her for having a preference to long baths as opposed to quick showers. Either way we both love each other.
“They have everything to gain by discounting people like Denise, myself, or any other person who speaks against them. They have money to lose. People like me don’t. So tell me….who is likely to be more honest? The person who is making money off of you BELIEVING THEM……or the person who is NOT making money off of you believing HER?”
Xion’s edit: Welcome to the world of business! I can see its not your speciality because you have been complaining about it for about 200 posts cannot seem to get your head around how it works. If you dont like how business works in this part of the world why dont you move away from capitalism? Join the communists? Guess what i’d still take Savoy’s side in this arguement because of many reasons one of them being that he brings a value to people (oh yea I said people!), he is supported by many other professionals in many sections of society and media and at least knows how to present himself professionally “Way to be sheep. Baaaaaa!”???? They day you become public enough for you to be on my tv…..hah
“Only a Psychologist is trained to do that (like Denise) and she IS addressing those concerns here. Did you miss that part, somehow?”
Xion’s edit: This is you not reading my post, I already said about 3 times im not interested in this, that was me brushing that area off and moving onto what I am concerned with (everyone has a favourite topic).
“It’s good that you don’t see this in couples everyday because that means at least the couples YOU know are smart enough to hide their “abuse” (whether on the part of the man or the woman) instead of proudly spouting it publicly…..(or spouting it publicly behind an anonymous name because they KNOW they are a sick and depraved criminal)”
Xion’s edit: This is funny….
What you believe you’re doing – Take a superior stance and tell him that every couple he knows is secretly hiding that they do criminal damage to each other and then dont tell anyone about it, not even himself?
In reality what the outside observer and myself witnesses – Someone’s telling me that everyone is lying to me about their love to abuse each other???
Then somehow linking that to the names they give themselves, an assumption not the real reason why some dating instructors prefer to go by an alternative name (in some cases an alter ego)…..I had a little respect for you but after this I come to the realisation there’s no point in disputing with you any more. Why?
You are so wrapped up in your own BS you cannot accept another human’s reality but deny it add your own weird and seemingly irrelevant spin to it.
So yes this is my last post, its been fun LR but I am standing with crowd who doesnt support your anti-PUA arguements and not because I was “Manipulated by dating science” but because of my assessment of you.
I am now going out with my friends to enjoy my saturday, have fun making the most of my post and all the other posts written against your cause for the next few weeks. Hopefully this will get you somewhere in the future, maybe a section in the local horoscope?
LR EDIT: In truth, I cannot read your comment because I can’t figure out whether you are quoting me, others, yourself, or WHAT is going on and I’d try to edit it for comprehension, but I cannot tell what’s what here.
The ONLY thing I caught is the end where you speak of “my cause”. WHAT is that? I am REALLY interested to know what some of these people think my “cause” is after a total of ONE POST EVER on my blog that touched directly on “Game” as a whole.
Either, way it doesn’t matter…. because I THINK in your comment that you admitted that you gather your “facts” based on “who is on t.v. and who isn’t” which means that you ARE indeed what is called “sheeple”.
To most NORMAL human beings….you believe the OPPOSITE of what you “see on t.v.” otherwise you’d be one seriously misinformed, uneducated, and completely biased person. That is why I refuse to watch the news, tune into ANY major media/news source for my information….and look only to actual BOOKS written by PROFESSIONALS (not reporters, marketers, or salesmen)
Did you actually say “If you don’t like Capitalism move to a Communist Country”???? What are you even REFERENCING when you said that to me?
LOL…nevermind. I cannot take someone seriously who just said the equivalent of the famous Rednecks and Trash are quoted as saying: “If you don’t like the laws here in America, then move!” (not realizing that America was FOUNDED on people not “liking” things…..and working to change them. If everyone who wished to “change things” just LEFT like you tell them too….. you wouldn’t have the freedom to say something THAT fucking stupid in the first place).
I’d like to see what people here thnk of this:
http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/about/what-feminism-got-right/
LR EDIT: Denise this sort of goes along with what we discussed via email for me: While all of those things may have been true for a VERY long time and some of them are still true today…..I feel that many things about Modern Feminism tends to push women to be involuntary victims.
We are not. Our previous oppression gives us NO RIGHT to “exact revenge on men as a gender”. Yeah, I’m talking to YOU Ladies!!! Many Feminists are JUST as dangerous as misogynists. They wish to punish our men and our sons for not being “quick enough” to adjust to very new, very confusing Feminist World.
Our society abandoned both men and women and sort of tossed us all into this new way of doing things, but no one was re-educated on how to handle living in such a world. Women were not taught properly how to responsibly handle this new “freedom” they were given and thus many have turned into the female of equivalent of our previous male “Wardens” and men no longer know what their place in the world is at all!
How can we expect anyone to “get along” in a world that is the equivalent of landing on an alien planet? Whether we like it or not, every society needs to know “where they stand” to some degree. This is true about ALL societies and ALL peoples. We just don’t like to admit it because it makes us look weak and even a little stupid.
The problem is not men…..it’s not women…..it’s all of us. Some men/women have figured out a way to “get along” and thrive in this newer world…..some have turned to things like misandry and misogyny because people tend to make an “enemy” out of that which they do not understand. It’s a natural reaction and as I said to you privately, Denise….I think it’s important that we NOT shame men OR women who have looked to “alternative sources” (such as Game or Radical Feminism). This means they ARE looking for a way to “get along”…..and just haven’t found it yet.
None of us are properly using the new freedom that women AND men have been given (I’m referring to men being allowed to stay at home, have emotions, like girly stuff….whatever). There is no “bad guy” here to punish….just a lot of confusion to clear up!
To Denise A Romano :
“1. There is a gender system : Males and females are socialized into masculinities and femininities. Masculine and feminine behavior is not simply determined by biology.”
There was a gender system in developped countries and it still exist in third world counties. There are subtle differences between the brain of a man the brain of woman – female children prefer working on organic material and male children prefer working on inorganic material. – http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/05/18/the_freedom_to_say_no/?page=full
“2. The gender system is damaging : Masculinities and femininities can be damaging and dehumanizing to both males and females.”
It was damaging in developped countries and it still damaging in third world countries.
“3. Women are oppressed :Women have suffered various types of systematic mistreatment throughout history, and continue to do so in the present. This mistreatment is unjust. If it can be called “oppression,” then women suffer gender oppression.
Again it was true in the past in developped countries and it still true in third world countries.
“4. Sexism exists : Sexism—hateful, contemptuous, bigoted, or discriminatory attitudes based on sex—is real. Sexism can be institutionalized socially and politically. The feminist identification and critique of misogyny has mitigated it to a degree, though institutionalized misogyny still exists.”
It exist, but it’s much more marginal than in the past – Roissy is not the President of the U.S.
“5. Males have unjust advantages : Males have some systematic advantages over females that they do not have a right to.”
Again it was true in the past.
“6. Marginalization of the experience of women :
Prior to feminism, the experience of women was marginalized in academic and scientific disciplines, and in public discourse”
Yes it was true in the past.
“8. There is something wrong with pornography : Pornography can be dehumanizing toward both its users and towards its participants. Even if pornography can be defended on legal grounds, these liberal arguments doesn’t protect it from moral critique.”
I’m reading porn forums since several years and I know that there are directors that are psychos (Max Hardcore for example) but I know too that there are severely issued porn actresses that like to work for these bozos.
“10. Beauty standards can be damaging : Beauty standards and objectification can be damaging to female self-esteem. It would be both practical and moral to change images of beautiful women in the media in certain ways.”
Women want to look like the most beautiful women because these women are desired by men. It was always like that and it’s impossible to change.
no more:
Heh, Denise should look into the “game” debate at Feminist Critics. And Daran is one of those who is very good with statistics and while he’s defended Mary Koss’s work -having actually linked to and read the actual survey and questions it asked -he’s demolished the 2 percent false accusation rate for sex offences that Brownmiller claimed.
In short there are things at Feminist Critics that mra’s would like and there are things on that blog that fair minded feminists would like.
It gets hatred by extremists on both sides.
LR EDIT: Clarence, I think most educated and lucid adult men and women can see that Radical Feminism (Misandry) is JUST as vile and demented as Misogyny is. Those two groups can wipe each other out and do us all a favor as far as I’m concerned.
To Clarence :
You mean the discussion “The Assumptions of the Seduction Community” ? If you read it you’ll see the Assumptions of the Seduction Community are not the same than the ones of Roissy. For example alpha-beta dichotomy : In the seduction community an alpha male is a confident high status man and a beta male is the opposite but both alpha and beta want the same thing (have sex with a lot of women), its’s just that betas are inferiors in the hierarchy and they can become alpha. I think it’s a realistic definition of alpha-beta. For Roissy (and he picked up his definition from MRAs), an alpha male is a sex-crazed abuser and and a beta is an asexual family oriented man – they are two different subspecies. The best definition of Alpha-Beta according MRAs is on the somethingawful thread that I pointed (it was given by Cless Alvein, an MRA) :
===============================================
Let’s first agree on some working definitions for four discernible levels of social status, applying to men in pre-monogamous societies: alpha, beta, gamma, and omega. Each has a different personality, family structure, and survival/reproductive strategy. With the most wives– we define a wife as one whose sexuality is exclusively betrothed to one man, making no religious implications– are the alpha males. They tend to have three or more wives and a large number of children. They’re r-strategists. Their wives are treated like chattel, and paternal investment in children is minimal, as the alpha male has to invest all of his energy in defending and maintaining his status. Beta males, on the other hand, tend strongly toward monogamy. (A beta might take two or three wives if there a severe shortage of men, but is disinclined to do so.) Either unable to acquire alpha status, or uninterested in doing so, they prefer seek out one highly desirable partner and form a pair bond with her. The beta male’s reproductive future relies on one woman, so he values her health highly, and tends strongly toward egalitarian partnership. Paternal investment is high, because the beta has few children and must see them succeed if his genetic line is to continue. Betas, being K-strategists, are the best husbands and fathers. Finally, gammas are the excess men who have no wives. Mostly celibate and angry, their reproductive strategies involve turmoil and risk. They can cuckold men of higher status (risking violence and death). They can start a revolution against the high-status men (risking violent death). Or, if the alphas recognize the danger these low-status, angry men present, the gammas will be sent to war against another tribe (risking violent death). Last are the abysmally low, usually deformed and unhealthy, omegas, the invisible and inert bottom. (What differentiates gammas from omegas is that gammas have the potential to become alphas or betas, often through war and insurrection. Omegas don’t.)
===============================================
This definition is completely crazy. I think that the reason of this definition is that these guys (who see themselve as betas) are sexually disfunctional or closeted gay. There was many discussions both on Roissy’s blog and on MRAs sites that says that men should not try to sexually satisfy a woman and I remember a posting on Welmer’s site where he was denoncing wives that learn Pole dancing and another posting on the The Spearhead that was saying that if a woman dress provocatively to please one man it was normal that other men want to rape her. I think these guys are simply not sexually attracted to women and these guys know that cannot sexually satisfy a woman and it pisses them off. That’s the reason they are terrified by cuckolding (by alpha male) and they are saying that alphas are sex maniac. It’s possible that some of them are closeted abusers/rapists and it’s probably why they say that all alpha males are abusers – they are projecting. Another possible reason is slave morality – they have no success with women but they believe they are better than the alpha males because alpha males abuse women. Slave morality is probably the reason too why they see themselve as family oriented – they need to to feel superior the alphas.
no more mr nice guy:
I’ve been reading Roissy for a year and a half. I think you misunderstand his definition of alpha.
Alpha, to Roissy is simply a man who, for whatever evo bio reaasons and reasons with his upbringing is very attractive to women. In short, he is whom women will pick if their choice are uncoerced, uncoerced meaning to most feminists subsidized by the state. It is useful to also give the title of Alpha to another type of man: The Leader and patronage holder for men. Such Alpha’s often intersect and are both attractive to women and leaders of men, but this is not always the case. Roissy’s definition of alpha, the thing that is the focus of Denises anger is ANY man who by hook or crook or genetics or whatever is popular with women. It really doesn’t matter how. If you overlook that, you’ll misunderstand Roissy.
Similarily though there is debate over whether an alpha has to be a LOM AND a ladies man or it is ok to be one or the other as well, there’s a general sense in which all agree what an alpha male is. He must be socially popular with the ladies or be a natural leader or both. Those are the only 3 definitions out there, and they really dont’ contradict one another – it’s just some MRA’s and some PUA’s disagree over whether a particular standard is tough enough.
Similarily for Beta’s. Except here, there seems to be less disagreement. Roissy divides them into an arbitray series of sub castes : Greater, and Lesser. I think this makes some sense. But the thing all agree on is that Beta’s tend to make the best family men.
As for Omega’s and gammas: While it seems fairly common to include a third group of men who would neither make good leaders nor fathers and are not popular with women many vary over what they call this third group. It seems to me that most in the Roissysphere at least have taken to calling them Omegas. And once again, Roissy has a greater and lesser subdivision. And to repeat this entire heirarchy at Roissy’s is predicated on the notion of sexual attraction only, because that is what his entire website is based on. Sexual attraction and how to increase it in women.
I haven’t seen many MRA’s or PUAs using a four classes system. It seems three or even two classes (usually subdivided somehow) is enough.
LR EDIT: Again, sexual attraction has NOTHING to do with having healthy relationships. Anyone can have sex. Animals have it. Hookers have it. You have sadly been misled to believe that if a woman has sex with you…..she likes you. Wrong. I have had sex with more than a few men who I’d never CONSIDER dating or treating with love and kindness. You seem to think that the male and female brain are different. They are not. Neuroscience has already debunked that about 10,000 years ago. There is NO difference in the FUNCTIONALITY of the male/female brain. If you want to believe a nobody who has no credentials about MEDICAL FACT instead of the actual Doctors who KNOW what is and is not MEDICAL FACT, then you have WAY bigger problems than Game.
Also, it’s not a “mystery” as to why an “Alpha Male” gets women. It’s because he was born with a natural self confidence that other men do NOT posses. A confidence that may or may not be warranted. A confidence that exudes from him and that WOMEN can see/sense. It has nothing to do with the way they do/do not treat the women they date….the way he looks….the way he talks….or even the words that come out of his mouth.
Women who have “natural self confidence” are privy to the same things. The woman who isn’t a supermodel but always seems to have a line of men wanting relationships with her….a string of men who are dying to get back together with her….a line up of successful and attractive men who like her (for seemingly no reason).
The phrase “Alpha” is used to describe a Male OR Female who is a “leader”. That is the Scientific and Anthropological definition whether used in Animals or Humans. It is nothing more or less sinister and mysterious than that. The PUA community has taught men that they should COMPETE with their fellow man…..to be something that they are not. You cannot BECOME Alpha without actually building REAL and GENUINE self-confidence. PUA teaches men that SEX= Self Confidence. That is why those men are so fucked up psychologically.
It’s the same as women who have deep insecurities and therefore fuck every man in sight and engage in weird and degrading sexual acts. She wants to appear more confident than she is. She wants the same attention that the naturally confident Alpha Female possesses. She thinks that she will find that in proving she can “sexually attract” men.
Would you consider THAT healthy behavior? No, of course not. There is NO difference in what Game is teaching men the meaning of “Alpha” is. If they wanted to create more Alphas in this world, they’d teach you to learn to love yourSELF, your own NAME, your own mind, your own words, and yourself. Not to morph into a different human being to give yourself a quick ego-boost by temporarily grabbing the (sexual) attention of a female.
You are only being taught to tap into the “id” of yourselves….the de-evolved Caveman. And more importantly you are being taught to ONLY tap into THAT part of the Females you are coming across. How is looking for the “lowest and least educated” part of yourself and another human being progressive, healthy, or indicative of a “healthy relationship”…..
The answer is: It’s not. And it never will be. Anyone with common sense and integrity knows that. Why don’t you?
Clarence–
I am very concerned that you seem to think Roissy is a “normal” man who is attractive to women. Second, Roissy is not physically attractive and his disgusting and depraved behavior makes him abhorrent to women. That’s why he has to HIDE IT and remain anonymous. I received an email this morning from a woman who used to date him and (allegedly) he is a pussy with a less-than-average penis size and evidently she “hated his terrible jokes and knew he was lying about his age” and even had to “sneak into his wallet to find out that he was 41….TWO YEARS AGO”.
Does that sound like a woman who is “enamored” by him? NO. That sounds like a woman who is amused by taunting and playing with him. Yup. That’s what you’re going to get….being a laughingstock amongst the women who have dated you and being dumped by every woman who dates you (just like Roissy). She even admitted she dated him because she was “looking for a challenge” and it “amused her fuck with his head because he was SO easy to break” and also “he told her he loved her immediately”.
Yeah….sounds like a real MAN’S MAN to me, lol. However….we’ll assume that is just hearsay and nothing else for the time being.
If you have been “reading him for a year and a half” then you also know that he posts the virtues of hitting women, physically and verbally abusing and intimidating women, putting them down, manipulating them, raping them (his comment about “holding her mouth shut and making her swallow” IS rape by ANY person’s standards) and even talks about how children at age 13 or 14 are “ripe for sex”.
That’s just the icing on the cake, but if you think this behavior is ANYTHING less than sick, depraved, criminal, and demented then I suggest you IMMEDIATELY admit yourself to the hospital. I am not joking or being sarcastic either.
There are plenty of men who have “been attractive to women and a good looking guy” who has then turned around and MURDERED the women he’s attracting. Or raped them. Or abused them.
A man being “able to attract” a woman is in NO WAY a measure of his morals, his manliness, or even his sanity. Even a depraved rapist can talk a good talk and get “women”. What does THAT have to do with ANYTHING?
It seems that you have valid complaints about Roissy, but WTF is with the anti-semitism? “Jimmy-the-Jew”? Calling him a “finance-Jew” in a derrogatory way? That’s disgusting.
LR EDIT: *rolls eyes yet AGAIN* Seriously, if you posted that comment that means you don’t understand why it’s funny….why it is a joke AGAINST Roissy and NOT “random Jews” and that I openly mock every race, creed, culture, and religion….including my own.
If you are looking for “Politically Correct” you are not going to find it here. I believe political correctness is a way for people to ignore the truths about themselves. See, the things about stereotypes is that they come from SOME tiny grain of truth. Otherwise they wouldn’t be so “offensive”, so if you are looking for some kinda Mel Gibson style apology, you won’t get it.
I don’t care if Jews take over the earth….or if they disappear entirely….that’s my attitude about pretty much everyone who is NOT me, my family, or my son. If labeling me as a Jew-Hater makes you feel better and will shut you people up and teach you to have a goddamn backbone and STOP playing the freaking VICTIM voluntarily….then I’d be MORE than happy to be labeled as “Anti-Semitic”…..even though in order to call me THAT you’d also have to call me Anti-White, Anti-Black, Anti-Hispanic, Anti-Men, Anti-Woman, Anti-Religion, and Anti-Aethism.
Whichever your pick, I don’t care because what Jews do or don’t do isn’t important to me. Neither is what Blacks or Whites do or don’t do. If you want to continue to play victim because you are a Jew….or a woman…..or a Black….or a White Male….be my guest. But I’m not going to help you make those false claims.
So basically: Take your crying elsewhere because you CLEARLY have no knowledge of WHAT my views are about anyone at all…..including the Jews.
(PS: Last I checked “Jew” is the CORRECT term to describe a Jew-Ish person. If you find it offensive, then it’s because you are offended by WHAT you are….not what I call you. Do you see Mexicans losing their mind over being called what they are? Which is “Mexican”?? Do you see Whites being offended by being called “White”?)
It’s not like I went off on some “side rant” about Jews as a people, as a religion, or anything at all other than using it for a play on words…..so go cry to your Jewish Leaders or something about getting the term “Jew” changed to something else if you don’t like it…..but your false victimhood is falling on deaf ears here. Sorry.
So go ahead, tell the WHOLE WORLD that “Lady Raine hates Jews” as much as you’d like. It won’t make me like, dislike, or even think about them anymore than I do now (which is not at all).
lady raine to clarence
A man being “able to attract” a woman is in NO WAY a measure of his morals, his manliness, or even his sanity. Even a depraved rapist can talk a good talk and get “women”. What does THAT have to do with ANYTHING?
Clarence re-read this again my friend because LR makes an excellent point here. How many women did Ted Bundy and the preppy killer have?
Mr. nice guy I think that the reason of this definition is that these guys (who see themselves as betas) are sexually dysfunctional or closeted gay
Bingo mr. nice guy. About a year ago I mentioned the number of bisexual men and str8(?) men who enjoy favors from gay men. My God, they came after me with a pitch fork and put me on the guillotine. I mean multiple commenters came after me.
It’s possible that some of them are closeted abusers/rapists and it’s probably why they say that all alpha males are abusers – they are projecting
And they’re looking for justification for their behavior
Clarence,
I would like to respond to Clarence and other and also clarify a few things.
First, I am not a pscyhologist. I can’t call myself one living here in NY, where a PhD is needed for that. In other states I can become licensed, however, with my current training and experience.
I did not know about roissy until Clarence commented on my blog in response to my August post. I wrote back to him, and we have enjoyed a very civil correspondence. In that correspondence, I became aware of weidmann’s blog.
LR has reminded me in her recent posts of something very important: we should not shame men for seeking out PUA help. I completely agree with her. And, so if any of my comments have been shaming, I do apologize and will endeavor not to engage in that in future.
In most of my writings, I do try to remain in an NVC/EI space.
Clarence is correct: I have managed to be very civil with him and even on roissy’s blog despite being unfairly attacked. I did control myself and remained respectful and civil even in the face of attacks.
A few things have happened since then:
1. I have been bombarded by really rude, ignorant, and violent emails from cowards with fake names and non-working email addresses who are not interested in actual dialogue or even debate – and who make no points whatsoever other than to tell me I’m a bitch, a misandrist, and other phrases I won’t even print here.
2. I have read more and more sickening things on roissy’s blog that further convince me that he is a criminal inciting criminal behavior. His large and fervent readership gives any person of principle pause.
3. I have NOT wanted to connect to these men (and some women – Dana? please!) and so I’ve opted out of using NVC skills which help us understand and connect. Using NVC is a CHOICE and it no longer felt safe or useful to connect with those who wrongly assume I’m a misandrist and will stop at nothing to launch vile, misinformed, violent attacks upon me.
However, Clarence helps me realize an important point which I would say is #4 – which is that when you are the only person using sound communication or conflict resolution skills – it is very easy to become de-skilled. This is actually quite common in the real world and I’ve written about this on my blog.
So, while I’d like to say my sarcasm has been entirely a conscious choice, I cannot honestly say so. But, that is a good learning point which I will raise for both myself and others.
Amazingly, when treated badly by these men online, I was not creaming in my panties and wanting them to fuck my brains out.
And, you’re absolutely right, LR – these men haven’t had the info they’ve needed and so this PUA/MRA snake oil emerged.
Clarence:
Regarding your point about “expertness”, Jackson Katz is an expert in what he does. Psychology and Education are vast fields, and I also have graduate degrees in both of these areas.
One’s expertness is determined not just by one’s degree, but by one’s thesis, peer-evaluated research, statistical analysis, scientific inquiry and conclusions published and critiqued in peer-reviewed journals, continuing credible education, and one’s choice of continued scholarship and work-focus.
Gender issues, abuse, issues of societal and systemic power and control as well as family systems work and interpersonal development skills are all areas of study in psychology.
“Denise herself while at least having degrees in psychology (not a PHD though) has no specialized degree in the psychology of abuse.”
Clarence: My EdM in Counseling Psychology and my MA in Organizational Psycology both from Columbia University are two programs based on the groundbreaking work of Carter and Helms on Racial Identity Theory and further on racial/cultural identity theory, which focuses on how issues of identity intersect with issues of systemic and interpersonal power and control as these relate to intrapersonal, interpersonal, relationship, family, workplace, and larger societal institutions such as government.
I also have done extensive training and work with both women who have been battered by their relationship partners as well as with men who were court-ordered to counseling resulting from arrests for relationship violence.
I have also worked with both men and women who are addicts, and many of their addictions were the direct result of having grown up in homes where their mothers were beaten by their fathers (in some cases murdered by their fathers) or in the case of the women, were the result of self-medication in order to try to cope with having been beaten, raped, or having the safety of their children threatened by men they once loved.
I do not dispute that there are men who are also battered by women, as credible statistics tell us that is true. At the same time, in all of my experience, I have yet to have one such case cross my path. What this says to me is that this is probably not as prevalent as many extremsit MRAs would have us believe and it may also be underreported, just as rape is still underreported in the US, though those that are reported tell us that one in three US women has been raped. (a statistic the PUA industry seems to ignore).
C: “most DV counselors have no degrees in anything whatsoever let alone psychology”
Clarence: I’m not sure why you say this: every DV counselor or any counselor I have ever known has had a graduate degree. I’m not saying your statement is untrue – just that I have never heard of such a thing.
C: “I find Denise herself guilty of emotionally abusive tactics towards many of the PUA’s she claims to want so much to understand. Savoy has printed some of her letters ( I literally have been corresponding with her for a few months, I had no idea she was doing all this stuff until the last few days)at http://therealsavoy.blogspot.com/2009/12/letters-from-crazy-people.html and then, despite him asking her not to email him again she posted this : http://therealsavoy.blogspot.com/2009/12/crazy-lady-returns.html.”
Clarence: I disagree that I have been emotionally abusive, but please do point to examples of this, and if I have been, I have no problem looking at those and apologizing if need be.
What I will say is that abuse often yields uncivil behavior. I have been badly abused on roissy’s site despite having remained civil in the face of that.
I find it odd that you would point here to my having been “abusive” to others yet not acknowledge here how I was treated on roissy’s blog merely for disagreeing with him.
I also disagree that I’ve in any way “stalked” Savoy. He claims he has not heard of roissy, which I don’t believe for a second, especially since his own senior instructor, Mr. M, has posted on roissy frequently and in agreement with him. (disturbing since LoveSystems claims to respect women).
I tried to engage Savoy in an actual discussion like we are all having here, but he refused that. I did not intend to email him ever again, UNTIL two things happened:
1. I saw frequent misogynistic posts from Mr. M on roissy’s and LR’s blog.
2. I received emails from LoveSystems students telling me that LS teaches them to respect women – AND – who then went on to tell me they regulary use intermittent reinforcement (which is inherently abusive) and that they “choke their girlfriends during sex” and that they are taught statistics such as “90% of women have rape fantasies and want to be dominated in bed”.
Even if the 90% stat were true (I don’t believe it is and there need to be credible sources given for stats in these discussions), why does LoveSystems and the larger PUA community/industry ignore credible stats on violence against women – particularly rape?
I would think that if 30% of all women have been raped, that would be useful information for men who truly want to improve their dating and relating skills.
Or is that not the actual goal of the PUA industry?
C: “people such as her helped make sure that quite a few overbroad definitions of abuse have been written into law.”
Clarence: I don’t know how you can make this statement. Do you know me and those who’ve made laws well enough to say this? I don’t believe you do.
C: “I find her posts on other blogs to be quite inflammatory, lacking in the rigour that yours often display if someone challenges you on this point or that. She also tends to borgify others, rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt. How this is supposed to demonstrate her “emotional intelligence” and “Non violent communication” skills is beyond me.”
I disagree that my posts on other sites have been inflammatory. I’ve posted her and on roissy’s site on these topics. I disagree that I have been inflammatory on roissy’s or this site. But, if I have been, I’d like to see specific examples of this so I can address them.
Benefit of the doubt? It is not possible to give the benefit of the doubt to roissy’s readership who fail to denounce his many instances of encouraging sexual and phsyical violence against women and young girls.
As for those here, I recognize more than a few screen names from roissy’s blog. I will give the benefit of the doubt when those men begin denouncing roissy’s statements.
I would think that any men in the PUA community who claim to respect women WOULD denounce roissy and not want to be lumped into the same group as him.
Clarence: Yes, I was respectful and willing to listen to you.
I am really very happily surprised to read this from you because you also wrote to me at the outset that you would not be persuaded on anything so I shouldn’t even try to do that.
“Perhaps this was from your desire to “show me the light” of NVC, but even so your respectful and compassionate tone is what caused me to trust that you would carry on a conversation in good faith and that we both might learn from each other even if (and this was always a possibility) in the end neither of our minds were changed on the subject of game. I hoped by our email chats that I would learn something about NVC and that you could show me where such things will help me attract the interest of women. Of course I didn’t really think you’d succeed, but I did expect that maybe there was something I could use in my game as I try to be an ethical gamer or in a rrelationship. Indeed looking over your site, as I have many times, there is much useful there and even though I really HAVE been exposed to lots of your stuff in other guises, I’ve found a few things on there that have been new to me.”
You made it clear to me that you would be willing to explain your understanding of game to me, and I was happy to welcome that. But you did not say that we could learn from each other. I’m happy to see this now, as I do think that is where the most value lies in such discussions. did I misunderstand your emails to me?
C: “However in the months we have had our email conversation -interrupted on both our ends by personal circumstances- you haven’t really ever tried to build your case about EQ or NVC. I still don’t know how using NVC is going to help me get noticed by some woman on the street, in a bookstore, in a club or library. I don’t know how increasing my EQ is supposed to help me impress ladies. After all, while both EQ and NVC as well as ethical use of game techniques might help me IN a relationship – one has to get one’s feet in the door first. I’ve found game can help me do this. You so far have offered me nothing as an alternative. Instead when you have sent me mails I’ve noticed that you often haven’t answered questions I posed to you in them, and you seem to have also misunderstood several things I have said to you.”
Again, Clarence, you told me not to try to persuade you of anything and that you would explain your understanding of game to me, so that is how I have proceeded with you. I’m not going to waste my time trying to teach someone about NVC and EI if they tell me they don’t care to learn it, and if someone does care to learn it, there is ample info on my blog about it and I welcome any questions about these. If you would like me to address your paragraph above about the value of NVC and EI to humans, I will happily do so.
C: “I look about the web and I see you trying to do cruel things to someone who has done nothing to you r/l (Roissy) , attacking other people who neither know you nor Roissy, making grandiouse proclamations about abuse that insult and blame those you contact, and generally trying to wage war on people who have not declared war on you.”
I disagree that I have done anything cruel to anyone. To what do you refer? Roissy has declared war on all women, and I am one, so he has harmed me just by posting the following on his blog, which is read by many men who clearly agree with him and he has a not insigifnicant amount of influence (which should disturb any person of principle regardless of gender).
1. cum in her mouth and hold it closed so she has to swallow
2. hitting women turns them on
3. alpha men should be able to hit women w/o them calling the police
4. the worst thing to happen to the US was women’s suffrage
and many more….
Clarence, I am disappointed that you do not the statements above as acts of violence, as they are.
I see no reason to have you arrested or fired. If you start an influential blog like roissy’s and start inciting men to harm women and children, that would be another story. Hopefully you would never do that.
C: “I don’t know where your counseling skills went.”
Here is where they went: as I described above, a number of things happened to influence my choice of communication. But, even if I had 3 Phds, that does not mean I give up my right to be outraged or to take appropriate action against a criminal.
Using NVC and sound counseling skills and EI skills can take a great deal of energy – epsecially when you are the only one using those skills. My way of communicating has absorbed so much from NVC and EI and counseling work that there are elements of those disciplines that have become default to an extent in my natural communicaiton.
However, no matter how much training someone has, if they are met with abuse, irrational hatred, and ridicule; it is unlikely they will continue to communicate without responding in kind, refusing to interact, or with a lessened effort at fairness and connection — unless perhaps if they are the Buddha, which I am not.
I am a human being, just like you. I do believe there is a great deal of common ground to be found here on LR’s blog and I think LR has done a great job of trying to point us in the direction of finding that common ground.
C: “you are getting a bad reputation and not doing anything to farther what you do have that is useful and good. I do wish you’d consider that.”
Thanks, Clarence. I have considered it before responding to you, and I do appreciate this post from you.
Frankly, if I have a “bad reputation” at LoveSystems or roissy’s, I consider that a compliment.
Savoy apparently does not care that one of his senior instructors (and god only knows how many more) fervently admire and agree with roissy, the criminal.
One would think he would care about that if only as a businessman.
One would hope he would care about that as a human being. That he does not does not make him someone to whom I can give the benefit of the doubt. He had his chance and he blew it. He had several chances actually.
So you see, I was not stalking him; I was giving him several chances to denounce abuse in the PUA industry/community.
I want to reiterate that I do believe there is a great deal of common ground here to be found, and I look forward to continuing this discussion as long it remains respectful, civil, and we are all responsible with statistics we use and provide sources for them.
Denise
to Chic Noir’s post:
yes, and i’ll add to that that even if a man is not a criminal and manages to have alot of sex with alot of women, that does not mean he is a skillful lover.
He might very well suck (and not in a good way).
“It’s possible that some of them are closeted abusers/rapists and it’s probably why they say that all alpha males are abusers – they are projecting
And they’re looking for justification for their behavior”
I think this is an excellent point that speaks to exactly what I and others take issue with about Game:
Why don’t said “alphas” admit that this what they want and either:
1. experience feelings of personal distress at realizing they derive pleasure from harming other humans OR
2. failing that, join a BDSM community and at least unleash their abuse on those who have agreed to it?
Do you see the very big difference between that and Game?
In Game, there is no informed consent and that is inherently unethical.
LR EDIT: Last sentence said it all. Simply and undeniably.
Examples of how REAL violence against women and girls is:
St. Paul Pioneer Press
Posted on Thu, Mar. 23, 2006
Shocked by recent headlines? These sex cases just grim reality
By Ruben Rosario
Let’s get real here. People are shocked that a Roseville high school girl was blackmailed into giving oral sex to a male student and several classmates and friends. People also are shocked that a 16-year-old runaway in St. Paul was held captive against her will for weeks, beaten, locked in a closet and forced to prostitute until she escaped.
Disturbing? No doubt. Shocking? Come on now. These are just slight variations on an old theme that continues to spawn new predators and claim new victims.
Rent “Hardcore,” a movie shot back in the day — 1979 — that stars the late George C. Scott and chronicles a desperate Midwest father’s attempts to rescue his runaway daughter from the clutches of porn filmmakers and pimps in Hollywood. The “Minnesota Strip” has long been a name associated with the naive young arrivals from the heartland who are preyed upon by pimps working the bus terminal depot in New York City’s Times Square.
Check out your frequent high school and college sex scandals involving boys or young men drugging or running a “train” — slang for gang rape — on defenseless girls and having the audacity to put the depravity on film. And these are just the ones that get reported or busted. Most don’t.
Better yet, talk to local sex-crimes cops, social workers, child-protection investigators and others who deal with this filth daily here in the Land of 10,000 Broken Young Souls. In the past two years, the feds have sent nearly a million dollars to St. Paul cops and two nonprofits to deal with the local human-trafficking problem.
Spare me the apple-pie reactions to these latest cases. We should have moved way beyond shock by now.
“I believe the shock is there in the high school case because the offender is not a stranger, it’s not a Level 3 sex offender, it’s not an adult male wearing a trench coat — it’s a high school student,” says Nancy Sabin, executive director of the Jacob Wetterling Foundation, a St. Paul-based nonprofit that addresses child sexual-abuse issues.
“But this happens quite often; oral sex has almost been diminished into a handshake,” she adds. “The problem is that we are sending mixed messages to our boys and young men. They don’t think what they are doing is wrong.”
She cites a recent study that estimated the amount of quality time parents spend on average with a child daily is 22 minutes. “Where do you think they are picking up that moral boundary?”
Well, mostly peers, the boob tube and an entertainment media and culture that are perhaps unprecedented in its objectification of females. It’s no “shock” that perhaps the most profitable business on the Internet is the porn industry. This is not just a crime problem. This is an entrenched cultural mind-set.
Jackson Katz, a lecturer, former school jock and founder of Real Men, a Boston-based anti-sexist men’s group, touches on this theme often in his soon-to-be-released book. “The Macho Paradox” (Sourcebooks, 2006).
Katz writes: “But any serious attempt to help boys think through their decisions about how to treat girls has to examine those places in male culture where sexist and abusive behavior is presented as normal and masculine and even expected — and where there are no real consequences for hurting people, including Internet pornography.”
He cites the hit movie “American Pie,” whose central character arranges to videotape himself having sex with a Czech exchange student and broadcast it on the Internet to friends.
“When American Pie was released in 1999, critics hailed it as good clean fun,” Katz writes. “Practically no one mentioned that one of the main plot points turned on the lead character’s stumbling attempts to commit an unforgivably cruel and sexist act — the type of act that ruins lives when it happens in the real world.”
Sabin hopes that the boys allegedly involved in the Roseville incident area are dealt with, but not just by the criminal justice system.
“This is an opportunity to intervene in the lives of young men who think this behavior is OK,” she says.
The story broke the same night Sabin and Roseville police officials spoke at a community notification about a Level 3 sex offender moving into the suburb.
“The offender had unforced sex with minors,” Sabin says. “I mentioned the (male student) and basically posed a question: Is he also not a sex offender? As long as we keep denying we have this problem — that it’s just strangers and not kids like this — we won’t be able to fix it.”
If we do ever get it, that would be shocking.
Rubén Rosario can be reached at rrosario@pioneerpress.com.
TOP
——————————————————————————–
april 12, 2006 | The dartmouth
Katz challenges men to prevent sexual abuse
By Amanda Cohen, The Dartmouth Staff
Published on Wednesday, April 12, 2006
Using a different approach to sexual violence prevention at “More Than a Few Good Men,” a dinner discussion held in Collis Common Ground Tuesday evening, speaker Jackson Katz challenged men to tackle a problem that has historically and inaccurately, he attests, been designated as a women’s issue. Unlike many other violence prevention programs, Katz’s speech was geared toward men, and he labeled sexual abuse and domestic violence as very much a man’s problem and focused on what men can do prevent their occurrence.
“The source of the problem is not women’s and girls’ behavior, its men’s behavior. True prevention means going into male culture,” said Katz, who founded the Mentors in Violence Prevention Program at Northeastern University.
Katz was careful not to accuse men of perpetrating sexual abuse and domestic violence, but instead emphasized the importance of having good men stand up.
“Just saying I’m not a rapist, just saying I don’t beat my girlfriend, is not particularly impressive to me. We need so much more from men then what we’ve been getting on these issues,” Katz said.
The mostly male audience was comprised largely of Dartmouth football players who were encouraged by Head Coach Buddy Teevens ’79 to attend the event. Football player Julian Collins ’08 appreciated Katz’s assessment of the problem and suggestions to help.
“Instead of just teaching women what to do, he wants men to have an active role in it as well. It’s a really good message,” Collins said.
Katz began by exploring the root of the problem: the pressure on males to comply with misogynist behavior and the risks a man takes if he stands up for a woman when male friends express violent behavior. He asked the audience for the names that men use to describe other men who stand up for women’s rights. Many of the terms listed threatened a man’s masculinity or sexuality, which Katz looked at more closely to reveal the irony of the pattern.
“The implication here is that because we care about women, and girls — our mothers, our daughters, our sisters, our wives, our girlfriends and other women — because we care about women, we must want to have sex with men,” Katz said. “If a man must be gay to care about women, that means that heterosexual men must not care about women. Isn’t that disturbing when you draw it out logically?”
Towards the end of the discussion, Katz showed video clips to emphasize how the media perpetuates the male-culture society, which he believes is at the base of male violence, including one which showed the increasing size of the male body through time. As male bodies grew more powerful, the ideal woman’s body has become more frail, he said. Katz attributed this change to male overcompensation for the threat women pose in professional society.
“It’s pretty true to show how manhood is evolving,” Collins said. “[It makes you ask] where’s it going to go…I thought it was really eye-opening.”
Katz also spoke about using civic and personal responsibility as a way of preventing sexual violence.
Copyright © 1993 – 2006 by The Dartmouth, Inc. All Rights Reserved
*Lady Raine taps her fingernails and thinks….*
You know how people where those “What Would Jesus Do” bracelets and the bumper stickers and all that? I often think in a discussion like this “Where the hell is Willard” and subsequently “What Would Willard Do?”
Seriously, though….I’d love to hear his abrasive, but honest, intelligent, and surprisingly diplomatic opinion on all this!
*Lady bellows: “Helloooooo Willard! Helloooooo!*
You know….Denise’s presence here allows me to be even more of an asshole than I usually am….you know, like Good Cop/Bad Cop kinda thing?
I get to be the one that gets away with saying offensive and sarcastic remarks and her compassionate approach sorta levels that out…..Nice!
I’d also like to know what people think of this:
NOMAS Child Custody Task Group
Research has now established that the custody court system’s response to domestic violence cases is deeply flawed. Courts’ use of outdated practices, unqualified professionals, inadequate training, gender bias and other mistakes has resulted in thousands of children being sent to live with abusers. This article explores the role anti-sexist men can play in reforming the custody court system.
Extremists who control “fathers’ rights” groups have developed powerful tactics to help abusers maintain what they believe is men’s privilege to control their partners and make the major decisions in the relationship. Abusive fathers with little involvement with their children during the relationship are seeking custody as a way to pressure his partner to return, punish her for leaving or obtain a favorable settlement of economic issues. Judges and other professionals, happy to see a father interested in his children have been slow to recognize abusers’ legal tactics. The male supremacist activists have created an illusion that they speak for most fathers. This is why it is particularly important that good men speak out for the safety of protective mothers and their children.
Garland Waller is an award winning producer of documentaries and professor of communications at Boston University. In her chapter for the forthcoming book DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, ABUSE and CHILD CUSTODY, she describes the failure of the media and particularly the national media to expose the crisis in the custody court system. Professor Waller suggests that there is a “tipping point” for this issue and once enough of the public is aware of the problem, the media will cover the issue and the public will no longer tolerate the outdated practices that have ruined so many children’s lives. The suggestions in this article are designed to help society reach this tipping point.
1. Learn about the subject: In order for men to play a role in ending these avoidable tragedies, they have to first make themselves knowledgeable about the subject. Fortunately there is much up-to-date research and information available to refute the myths and stereotypes commonly used by those unfamiliar with this research. On the web, good information and links can be found at web sites for the Battered Mothers Custody Conference (Batteredmotherscustodyconference.org), National Coalition Against Domestic Violence (NCADV.org), Leadership Council (Leadershipcouncil.org), Stop Family Violence (Stopfamilyviolence.org), Liz Library (thelizlibrary.org) and my web site (Barrygoldstein.net). This is not a complete list and many other good sites will be found in the links available on these sites.
Many good books and articles containing up-to-date research and information are also available. Men who wish to read about this topic should consider work by Lundy Bancroft, Dr. Jay Silverman, Peter Jaffe, Claire Crooks, Nicholas Bala, Joan Zorza, Evan Stark, Michael Lesher, Dr. Amy Neustein, Dr. Maureen Hannah and Barry Goldstein. These writers in turn cite research from other good sources. Men should avoid articles based on flawed and biased research such as those cited by male supremacist organizations or Parental Alienation Syndrome propagandists.
Another good source of accurate information about the crisis in the custody court system is domestic violence advocates and protective mothers. Domestic violence advocates are the only professionals that work full time on domestic violence issues. Their information is often minimized based on the belief that they are partisan. The advocates have the expertise to recognize domestic violence and understand the best approaches to preventing it. Domestic violence advocates always oppose domestic violence just as firefighters are always against arson and doctors against disease. No one considers them partisans because it is society’s policy to prevent arson and disease just as it is our policy to prevent domestic violence. Anti-sexist men can learn from the advocates in their community and support their work.
2. Speak to friends, family and colleagues: Many protective mothers have expressed the concern or experience that people would assume they must be horrible mothers because they lost custody. Male supremacists support this myth when they claim the court system favors women because mothers receive custody more often than fathers. While the statement is true, it is also misleading because most of the time cases are settled more or less amicably and the mother receives custody on consent. This reflects the practice of mothers doing most of the child-care in this society. The problem is contested custody cases, 90% of which involve abusive fathers seeking custody, but 70-83% of these cases result in custody or joint custody to the overwhelmingly abusive fathers.
Anti-sexist men can help change the hostility faced by protective mothers and move towards the tipping point by discussing the crisis in the custody court system with family, friends and colleagues. This will help make the public aware of the intolerable practices involving domestic violence custody cases. As word about these tragedies spreads people in a position to change the system or further inform the public will be among those educated.
3. Speak out in letters to the editor, talk radio and on the Internet: Male supremacists constitute an extreme fringe group that opposes child support, enforcement of domestic violence laws and in some cases support sex between adults and children. Obviously if they expressed their agenda they would not be taken seriously. Instead they create the illusion of reasonableness by using seemingly reasonable positions like shared parenting, compromise, “friendly parent” parental alienation syndrome and “fathers’ rights” to promote their agenda. They are well funded and often successful in manipulating courts, media and politicians to believe they speak for most fathers.
Accordingly it is important for good fathers to speak out and make sure the public understands these extremists do not speak for us. Men can support protective mothers by writing letters to the editor, making calls to talk radio and posting their views on the Internet. These acts help bring public awareness about the crisis in the custody court system and counter the misperception that custody disputes are a battle between mothers and fathers rather than between safety and abuse. Reporters, like other professionals frequently fail to understand domestic violence custody issues or place them in the proper context. Men can contact reporters and news outlets when they see inaccurate coverage of this issue and encourage the media to use genuine experts such as domestic violence advocates as their sources of information.
4. Help local protective mothers: The crisis in the custody court system is a national problem so protective mothers who have been mistreated by the court system can be found in every state and most localities. Men can go to court, and observe the proceedings to support protective mothers. Some, but not all abused women have friends, family or domestic violence advocates to accompany them to court. The court can often be frightening and hostile to victims of domestic violence so the more support she receives the better. In the notorious Shockome case in Poughkeepsie, New York a dozen advocates and supporters regularly came to court to support the Dutchess County Mother of the Year who was abused first by her husband and then by the court. We noticed that the judge treated male observers more respectfully than female observers. Although this practice is wrong, it points out the importance of good men supporting battered mothers. I do not believe it was coincidence that when the mother appeared in court without her supporters, the judge treated her repeated statements of “objection” designed to preserve her right to appeal as if her intent was to interfere with the court process. The judge sent the seven-months’ pregnant woman to jail for almost a month for this “contempt.”
When I was preparing to give a workshop at a NOMAS conference with Ben Atherton-Zeman, we prepared by asking protective mothers and their advocates what men could do to help. Many of the women suggested that men come to court to support protective mothers in their area. Men who wish to support a protective mother can contact the local domestic violence agency and organizations working to reform the custody court system to find protective mothers looking for support. The women have had their trust violated by their partners and often by the court system they thought would protect them. Accordingly men must understand that some of the survivors may have trouble trusting another man so he should be guided by her preferences and comfort.
5. Support organizations working to help protective mothers: Protective mothers often enter the custody court system expecting to easily receive custody because they have been the main caregiver and the children’s need for their mother is obvious. They are not prepared for the brutal attacks they receive from their abusers and how open the courts are to lies and manipulation by their abusers. The failure of the media to expose the crisis contributes to the shock protective mothers feel when they realize what they are up against. Battered mothers often expend a great deal of resources and energy attempting to reinvent the wheel. There are now many wonderful organizations and resources available for protective mothers and anti-sexist men can help by supporting these organizations.
The Battered Mothers Custody Conference (BMCC) has held annual conferences every year. since 2004 bringing together the leading national experts about domestic violence custody cases and protective mothers. The organization was founded and is led by Dr. Mo Hannah. They also have a web site with research and sources of assistance. BMCC focuses solely on the protective mother issue and its efforts have helped increase the involvement of domestic violence organizations. The leading national organization working on domestic violence issues is the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence (NCADV They have made the crisis in the custody court system an important priority because the abuser tactic of seeking custody to maintain control over mothers seeking safety has been successful in stopping progress to end men’s violence against women. They have state coalitions and local agencies as part of their membership that provide resources for protective mothers in most communities. Protective mothers should start by contacting their local domestic violence agency. These organizations provide many more services besides shelters. Stop Family Violence is an organization led by Irene Weiser that has made protective mothers a high priority. They have research available on their web site and organize advocacy to change policies that make it harder for mothers to protect their children The Leadership Council is an organization of respected professionals who use their expertise to help protective mothers. They have good research on their web site and sometimes provide expertise on particular cases. Some chapters of NOW have made this issue a high priority. There are many other organizations, locally and online working on this issue. Anti-sexist men can join these organizations, provide financial and other support, and send messages to government officials and the media in support of the actions of these organizations. As mentioned before it is particularly helpful for government officials and the media to know that men support protective mothers because male supremacists seek to create the illusion they speak for most men.
6. Work with anti-sexist men’s groups: Men have come together to create organizations designed to oppose men’s abuse of women and sexism. The National Organization of Men against Sexism (NOMAS), A Call to Men and others work to support the movement to end domestic violence. NOMAS has a child custody task force that works to support protective mothers. Anti-sexist men should join these men’s organizations and send a message that the custody crisis is not a dispute between men and women, but an issue about the safety of children and mothers abused by their partners and too often inadequately trained court professionals.
7. Contact your local court system and ask them to adopt up-to-date practices: When the modern movement to end domestic violence started in the mid to late 1970s, there was virtually no research to help understand domestic violence. Courts adopted practices and approaches to respond to domestic violence custody cases during this time frame. Most of these practices are still in place despite substantial research and information to demonstrate the failure of these approaches. This is why courts so often fail to recognize domestic violence and frequently force children to live with abusers.
With the publication of DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, ABUSE and CHILD CUSTODY and other research there can be no further doubt that the custody court system is broken. Rita Smith, Executive Director of the NCADV has written that after the publication of DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, ABUSE and CHILD CUSTODY, any continuation of the present practices should be considered malpractice. Protective mothers and their allies will be working to convince courts to revise their training methods and practices based upon up-to-date research and information. Anti-sexist men can help this key aspect of the reform movement by contacting their local administrative judges and asking them to apply this up-to-date information into standard court practices. While it would be unethical for judges to discuss specific cases, discussion of patterns of problems in the court system and useful research is totally appropriate. One of the problems with the court system is the lack of accountability of judges and other professionals. Involvement of the public through such contacts would make judges understand the public is watching the courts to make sure children are protected from abusers.
8. Seek legislative reforms: Although the courts could do a good job protecting children with the present laws, there are changes to the law that would provide additional safety to protective mothers and their children. Laws supporting “friendly parent” provisions or shared parenting should be repealed because they are routinely used to support abusers and even when there is an exception for domestic violence, the exception is regularly ignored or minimized. These laws have been applied in a gender biased manner and there is no research to support a belief the laws benefit children. Research regarding the harm of domestic violence to children has resulted in laws requiring courts to consider domestic violence or create a presumption favoring custody for the non-abusive parent. The problem is that most of the laws apply only to the more severe forms of abuse and require a high level of proof. Legislatures should pass laws supporting the best practices found in up-to-date research which is the victim or less aggressive parent should have custody and the abuser should at least initially be limited to supervised visitation. Professionals without substantial domestic violence training and experience should not be permitted to work on domestic violence custody cases or should at least be required to consult with a genuine expert. Courts should be required to keep records for each judge of how often they make findings supporting allegations of domestic violence and how frequently they create Custody-Visitation Scandal Cases. Courts should be specifically barred from permitting evidence of unscientific theories such as Parental Alienation Syndrome. Judges should be required to put their reasons in writing when they rule against domestic violence allegations. Laws should be passed encouraging courts to award legal fees and other support to the parent having fewer assets when this is required to level the playing field. Evidence of gender bias should be grounds for appeal and when a judge engages in gender bias an appeals court should not be permitted to defer to his judgment based on his familiarity with the parties and their demeanor in court. States should establish effective disciplinary protocols for judges and create whistle blower protections for attorneys or others who expose improper behavior of professionals in the court system.
The organizations mentioned before often work on legislative reforms and anti-sexist men can support these campaigns. They can also write to their representatives and speak with them about the crisis in the custody court system and need for reforms. Most people including legislators are unaware of the seriousness of these problems. The more they hear from the public the easier it will be to create the needed reforms.
9. Contact journalists: Although the media covers domestic violence issues far more frequently than before the start of the domestic violence movement, it continues to make too many mistakes. Few journalists have training in domestic violence so when they are assigned a domestic violence story they often use unaccountable language and don’t know who the experts are. Journalists frequently use terms like “domestic dispute” to describe a vicious assault by a husband against his wife. The language makes it seem as it both parties contributed to the problem. This would be like describing the mugging and robbery of a cab driver as a “fare dispute.” The one profession that works full time on domestic violence issues and must have extensive training is domestic violence advocates. Recently there was a series of murder-suicides across the country where men killed their wives, children and/or other family members. The media produced some stories in which they looked at the economy, guns, depression and personal setbacks as causes of these tragedies. In fact many of the cases included histories of domestic violence and custody disputes, but the media failed to consider the most likely cause. Women suffer depression and economic hardships and tragically they sometimes commit suicide, but they don’t usually kill their family also. The difference is that men more often believe they have the right to make decisions for their family and that no one else can have her. The journalists could do a better job analyzing the pattern if they spoke with domestic violence experts.
The failure of the media to expose the crisis in the custody court system is a major obstacle to creating the needed reforms. The media is critical to helping the public understand the problem so the “tipping point” can be reached. Anti-sexist men can encourage the media to cover the issue and help them understand the male supremacists do not speak for most men. Men can contact reporters in response to articles about domestic violence and point out mistakes regarding domestic violence information. Ask reporters to do follow-up stories that focus on the custody court crisis. Encourage reporters to use local domestic violence agencies and national experts as sources of information to help them understand the issues. If the media gives coverage to the male supremacist viewpoint, request articles supporting protective mothers. Encourage reporters to look at the patterns of these cases instead of just an individual case that might not be typical.
10. Use your position, contacts and influence: The failure of the court system to recognize the abuser tactic of seeking custody to maintain control over his victim and punish her for leaving has caused the courts to inflict unspeakable pain and suffering on children and protective mothers. Since a large majority of men and women prisoners experienced domestic violence or child abuse as children, the courts’ failure has undoubtedly resulted in the loss of potential of thousands of battered women, children and third parties victimized by crimes committed by abused children. I do not believe the public would tolerate this tragedy if they knew the extent of the problem. This is why it is so important to bring attention to the pattern of mistakes that has resulted in so many children forced to live with abusers.
Anti-sexist men can use their positions and contacts to help the public understand this problem. Anyone in an academic institution can encourage domestic violence to be included in the curriculum and their institution to present speakers. Men can encourage their religious leaders to speak out about the custody crisis, provide programs and information and support protective mothers in the congregation. Civic institutions like Rotary or Kiwanis can be encouraged to create programs about this issue. Lawyers can encourage pro se and reduced fee representation of protective mothers, better training regarding domestic violence and to speak out when judges or others engage in gender bias. Businesses can support protective mother organizations, provide jobs and support for protective mothers and prevent abusers from using resources at work to harass his partner. Perhaps the media would pay more attention to advertisers than they do to protective mothers when we seek coverage about domestic violence custody cases. I am sure men can come up with many other ways they can use whatever contacts or influence they have on behalf of protective mothers and their children.
In my first book, I told the story of three children who were physically and sexually abused by their father. My client had to go to Family Court for an order of protection and custody. The children bravely told the judge, their attorney, the court-appointed evaluator and the child protective service caseworker what their father had done. As is typical of these cases, the professionals all believed the mother was pressuring the children to make false allegations and warned her she would lose custody if she did not stop. The judge ordered unsupervised visits with the father to resume. Thereafter the father was confronted by the baby-sitter in the presence of the law guardian and admitted kissing his daughters on their privates. The law guardian responded by joining me in a motion to stop the unsupervised visitation. The judge consulted with the evaluator who said the father used bad judgment but he should still receive his visitation. During this visitation the four-year-old was penetrated for the first time. I called child protective services to make a new report based on the father’s admissions. When the judge heard this he yelled and screamed at me saying the allegations had already been investigated. A new caseworker investigated the allegations and found the father did far worse than we alleged. CPS filed charges against the father and he never again received more than supervised visits. When the mother won custody she invited the caseworker and I to a celebratory dinner. The children had a name for us. They called us “believers” because we believed them when all the professionals who were supposed to protect them didn’t. We will need a lot more believers in order to protect our precious children.
M. T. Hannah, B. Goldstein, Domestic Violence, Abuse and Child Custody, Civic Research Institute to be published early in 2010. See also B. Goldstein, “How do we know custody courts are sending children to live with abusers? Ten ways to know the custody court system is broken. available at NCADV.org
Jafee, P., Crooks, C.V. & Poisson, S.E. (Fall, 2003). Common Misconceptions in Addressing Domestic Violence in Child Custody Disputes. Juvenile and Family Court Journal, p. 57. PBS Documentary Breaking the Silence: Children’s Stories (2005) produced by Dominique Lasseur and Catherine Tatge, http://www.tatgelasseur.com. Also see Are Good Enough Parents Losing Custody to Abusive Ex-Partners? Available from The Leadership Council, http://www.theleadershipcouncil.org
B. Goldstein, Scared to Leave Afraid to Stay, Robert D. Reed, Publishers, p. 23-48
Clarence, if you adopt the definition of “sexually popular man” for an alpha male, both Assanova and Mystery have children – there’s even a video on youtube where Mystery sings with his daughter ( and Mystery was ridiculed by Roissy). Therefore nothing prevent a sexually popular man to be a good father. If you adopt the definition of high-status male (leader), usually these guys have more money than beta-males therefore they are probably better parents. Furthermore the amount of sex that a guy has have nothing to do with his alpha-beta status. People living in couple have more sex than people having one night stands therefore if a 30 years old virgin find a girlfriend and move in with her he will have more sex with her than someone having one night stands and he’s definitively not an alpha according to Roissy’s definition.
LadyRaine:
Whether there are any important biological differences between male and female human brains is a matter of intense debate that I certainly don’t intend to either have with you, nor allow you to tell me what “is” the case about it. I’ve been following the nature/nurture debates for over 25 years! Needless to say I am NOT going to take your word for there being no important differences on average between male and female conceptions of the world, mental abilities, and possibly group-wide interests. And no, thta doesn’t mean I think that environment plays NO role in socialization either. I’m not an either/or person on this topic. No disrespect to you, but I didn’t come here to make or h ave that argument and while I am cognizant and respectful towards your technical education neither you, nor I, are neurobiologists. I could easily link you to a million scientific sources, books, etc, and we could get in a big argument and go round and round and nothing would ever be resolved. This doesn’t seem like fun to me- I’d rather interact with you on the subject of game.
I’d also rather not argue with you on the subject of what constitutes Alpha in terms of a human male. To me the definition of a true alpha human male is that he leads males and attracts many females. I am also willing to consider a type of lesser Alpha who either leads men or attracts women but not both. I also don’t believe that all alpha traits are inheritanly expressed only genetically: I believe some can be learned.
I DO NOT disagree with you about one of the ASPECTS of an alpha’s success being self confidence, I do disagree that this is something that is necessarily naturally there or not. To an extent whether some guy who would “naturally ” grow up to be an alpha is self confident depends on his environment. Abusive parents or a way too permissive environment can both go along way in quashing the expression and development of the mental skills such as self discipline and confidence needed to fully grow into whathever he could be.
Anyway, please, please understand that while I shall use Roissy’s definition of alpha it is only because we are talking about game. I care about what makes me and other men attractive to women and as you say, self-confidence is an important part of that. But if you don’t have it, there’s nothing wrong with faking it until you make it. It takes lots of guts for someone who is used to rejection or being ignored and maybe not the most sociable of a person to go out there and lay their ego on the line, and I can’t find myself disgusted by anyone who wants to improve themselves.
The PUA group I belong to has several useful and good things in it:
Sexual ethics: No matter what your goal is – score lots of women, get a girlfriend, find a wife – if you must split up, leave her better than when you found her.
Self-improvement: The men there have to have individual goals and update the group on their acheievements. These goals can be things like losing weight, getting more money, etc. We also have assigned mentors that we are accountable to.
Information: We keep men informed about dating laws, marital laws, etc. so they know what they are getting themselves into legally. This is something that SHOULD be done in the highschools. The number of men who marry knowing nothing of no -fault divorce is still way too high. Obviously the men in our group who go for ltrs know what they are getting into and walk in with their eyes open and help -in terms of advice- if they need it.
This is precisely what you claim PUA’s are NOT doing. It might be that some of us are aware of the problems of certain abuses of techniques and the limitations of only seeking validation in women. Now what books and methods do most of my PUA friends in this group use? Why Mystery method (though because you’ve not bothered to read enough perhaps you are unware that one can choose NOT to peacock in silly hats), mode 1, and some David Deangelo. We also read things such as Andrew Carnegies How to Make Friends and influence People, and other self help and psychology books. Silly you that you thought we did all this just so we could trick women into going into bed with us. We live happier lives whether we have women or not. It’s just icing on the cake that the few times I’ve had a chance to go out in the field this stuff has helped me and any girls I am with have a most enjoyable time
So my contention is that there is such thing as ethical game. As for your attacks on Mystery and Style I bet you that if you asked all the women they had went out with whether they were assholes and whether the women would say they had a good time, 90 plus percent would give them a positive thumbs up. Unlike some advice in the community, Mystery’s techniques and advice are NOT inherently abusive.
There are female alpah’s LR, I also will not get into this. It would be off-topic.
No more:
you are of course correct. Some alpha’s eventually settle down and make excellent dads too. I was speaking in generalities because lots of sexually succesful alpha’s exhibit caddish behavior and either make poor fathers, late age fathers, or no fathers at all. I think its basically true that for a good period of his life most “natural” sexually gifted alphas would much rather play the field. Most of what we call Beta men on the other hand while ok with a few swings, are more naturally drawn to fatherhood and tend to express such desires at a young age. Generalities is what I am dealing with here.
“Unlike some advice in the community, Mystery’s techniques and advice are NOT inherently abusive.”
So, where are the voices of men in the community speaking out against the advice that is abusive?
I’m sure if more of that were happening, there would be no confusion between groups like yours that sound okay with what roissy preaches.
However, I haver read Mystery’s book, and I do find him abusive.
Denise
Denise:
I’ll respond to your post to me tomorrow. Thank you for making such a measured response. However, if you have time, I would like to know the answer to my most important question between now and tomorrow night: How can NVC attract the sexual attention of women in normal social situations such as on the street, in a library or in one of those dreaded meatmarkets *for both sexes* called clubs?
If NVC can’t that is FINE – however I then invite you to either give me a list of approved “game” techniques to get that initial attraction going OR some other option besides game or NVC if neither will do.
I will call Roissy out on about half of what you and LadyRaine have complained about. The other half I maintain a right to disagree about besides which I think you misuderstand some things. I’ve already *in my emails to you* given you a few pickup techniques that I think are problematic in most situations such as NLP. I’m hardly some guy who worships Roissy or any PUA “Guru” for that matter, though I have deep respect for Mystery and a few others. I do not think Roissy is that bad a person in r/l and because I value freedom of speech I hope your campaign to have him fired files. I also do worry about YOU when I hear you’ve tried to have him arrested. To what specific girl has he done harm?He’s had many over the years, some don’t like him and feed info to LR, but guess what? None of them to my knowledge have ever tried to have him put away.
Anyway I shall say more about your post tomorrow.
I also think that another way to find common ground is to look at the basics:
When we look at this statement, “Katz also spoke about using civic and personal responsibility as a way of preventing sexual violence”, it seems that there are disagreements about what the defniition of “sexual violence” is.
weidmann’s blog clearly states that sexual violence against men (or as he calls it “butt rape”), is a bad thing, but he doesn’t seem to think that sexual violence against women or girls is a bad thing.
I’d like to hear commentary on this from those who have read weidmann’s blog.
And, I’d like all readers here to know that that is only one part of his blog that I and others find so reprehensible.
This is why I believe roissy should be arrested:
hate speech definition – legal
(noun)
Speech not protected by the First Amendment, because it is intended to foster hatred against individuals or groups based on race, religion, gender, sexual preference, place of national origin, or other improper classification.
Webster’s New World Law Dictionary Copyright © 2006 by Wiley Publishing, Inc., Hoboken, New Jersey.
Used by arrangement with John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
What he is doing also fits the defintion of inciting violence given that he is a self-proclaimed “leader” and has a large and loyal following.
Clarence:
I will do my best to answer this by tmrw night: How can NVC attract the sexual attention of women in normal social situations such as on the street, in a library or in one of those dreaded meatmarkets *for both sexes* called clubs?
I also have alot of ideas about this: “If NVC can’t that is FINE – however I then invite you to either give me a list of approved “game” techniques to get that initial attraction going OR some other option besides game or NVC if neither will do.”
“I will call Roissy out on about half of what you and LadyRaine have complained about.”
I would appreciate it if you could be more specific about what you mean, and if you would actually go to his blog and call him out on it specifically. Thanks.
“The other half I maintain a right to disagree about besides which I think you misuderstand some things.”
I’d like to know what and why. Thanks.
“I’ve already *in my emails to you* given you a few pickup techniques that I think are problematic in most situations such as NLP. I’m hardly some guy who worships Roissy or any PUA “Guru” for that matter, though I have deep respect for Mystery and a few others.”
I guess my question the is why have you been reading him for so long? I do not ask with accusation but with curiosity.
“I do not think Roissy is that bad a person in r/l and because I value freedom of speech.”
This IS real life. He has posted photos of LR’s son on an X-rated site. I think that’s pretty bad. He has also posted photos of other babies and under-age people on his x-rated site.
I also greatly value freedom of speech, but freedom of speech does not cover any spoken or written word that incites violence, which I think he is acitvely doing. And he is smart enough to know that he is doing it.
To what specific girl has he done harm?
Every person whose photo he has posted on his site w/o their permission has been harmed. That’s alot right there.
Any women who have dated him and the men who read his words about “cum in her mouth and hold her mouth closed so she has to swallow” — if that has been done to them, they’ve been sexually assaulted as a direct result of his having incited others to do that.
The woman he writes about who he dated – the one he claims to have hit and then he further claims that she liked it – she was assaulted by him. And any women who were then hit by men because they read that in roissy’s blog – those women have been assaulted and harmed also.
I do not believe roissy’s story about the woman liking it btw. I don’t think he would admit it if she told him to fuck off, hit him back, or called the police, do you?
There is a great deal of anecdotal evidence from men’s groups for those court-ordered to counseling after DV arrests – and I have seen this firsthand — wherein these men actually believe and say that the best sex they ever had was after they beat their partners bloody. Guess what? Counselors are trained to take that seriously and follow up with the women to find out her persective on it and the women 100% of the time say that they were too terrified or hurt to protest his sexual advances after having been hit and that for them it was an instance of sex against their will: rape.
roissy is a criminal and that is why I want him arrested.
I don’t want him arrested because I disagree with him or think he’s an ass. if that were the case I’d also want Nick Savoy arrested. But as far as I can see, NS isn’t inciting violence against women as roissy is.
There is a huge difference.
I’d like any man reading this who is willing to do this exercise from Jackson Katz: (you can do this on a piece of paper).
“Put a line down the middle.
Then I draw a male symbol on one side, a female symbol on the other.
Then I ask the men what they do on a daily basis to prevent themselves from being sexually assaulted. Usually the answer is nothing.
I’ve done this exercise around 1300 times, and I’ve gotten about four straight answers from men.
In most cases a man will finally raise his hand and say, “I don’t do anything. I don’t even think about sexual assault on a daily basis.”
And then I ask the same question of the women, and the board fills up with things that women do. Whether they live in an urban, suburban, or rural area, it doesn’t really matter.
The board just absolutely fills up. The point is that the threat of sexual violence is a pervasive part of women’s lives in the United States…”
“And whether or not a woman has already been victimized by a man — and millions have — the threat of men’s violence is an omnipresent reality in women’s lives.
So, knowing that, men who claim to care about women, social justice, or simple decency, need to figure out what they can do about this horrendous problem.
Thanks
Denise
Clarence,
I have a professional relationship with both Hendre Coetzee and Srini Pillay. They are wonderful men and brilliant scholar/practitioners. They both do alot in the areas of neuroscience as well.
Srini is a Harvard psychiatrist who does alot of work and writing in the same areas I do.
Hendre studied Theology and Philosphy of Leadership at the University of Johannesburg.
He also was a facilitator the Integration of black and white youth, for the Truth and Reconciliation Commission appointed by the National Council of Churches, so he has a great deal of experience dealing with conflict, myths, conflict resolution, and issues of systemic and interpersonal violence among groups based on identity and hate that is taught.
There are many correlations regarding identity issues, hate, conflict, privilege, power and control, and opportunities for harmonious relating when it comes to issues of race and gender.
I forgot – Srini is also a brain imaging researcher at Harvard.
I didn’t want to mis-state it, so I looked it up.
Here is a link to one of his great articles on the Huffington Post:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/srinivasan-pillay/how-our-minds-play-tricks_b_230939.html
One more before bed:
(Please note that on this topic, Harvard brain imaging researcher and psychiatrist Srini Pillay does not distinguish between male and female brains — or between men and women at all in this article):
Love and fear are seemingly disparate emotional states, yet they seem to have a close relationship to each other. On the surface, love is a positive emotion that fosters a connection between people, whether they are parents, lovers, friends or family of any kind.
Fear, on the other hand, does exactly the opposite. When we fear someone or something, we want to do anything other than connect with the feared person or object. In contrast, we want to stop the fear from inhabiting our bodies and we do whatever we can to avoid the feared person or situation. Yet, love often gives rise to fear, and fear has been known to give rise to love as well. Why can such apparently opposite emotions give birth to each other and what is the connection that keeps them alive in this “creative” relationship? In focusing on romantic love, I will discuss some of these bridges. In this, part I, I will focus on when love turns to fear.
When we are first in love, we feel the confidence of the attachment. We feel the great joy of being with someone and the good fortune of being able to see them again and again. But as this joy increases, so does the attachment. And for many people, this attachment creates a fear of loss. It is at this point that love comes to give rise to fear – when we lose the joy of the connection and want to hold onto it. This seems paradoxical, but is not. Rather than allowing the power of our whole beings to foster the connection, we invoke mainly conscious thought processes of “trying not to lose”. Thus attachment or desire for ownership is the first bridge from love to fear.
In the human brain, the amygdala registers emotion. When we are afraid, the amygdala activates. When we trust, the amygdala becomes “calmer”. When we are calm in love, this “trust” center in the brain is on cruise control, but when we start to deepen our connections, we sometimes create reasons to question the trust and the “trust” center becomes restless. How long will you actually be with this person? Will they always be in love with you? What if they leave once they get to know you more deeply? These questions disrupt the trust (and the amygdala) and the love that once was starts to turn into fear. The fear of being disappointed. Since love is a continuous negotiation of trust as the relationship gets deeper and deeper, any lessening of trust converts love into fear.
Thus, trust (or the absence of it) is the second bridge that connects love to fear.
Love is also a flow state. It lightens one’s burden in life and creates a feeling of freedom where we seem to appreciate things more and feel grateful for what we have. However, this lightness can also be unbearable, as Milan Kundera has noted in his book: “The Unbearable Lightness of Being”. It is a bit like skiing and not knowing how to stop. When we question this flow, we effectively hit the brakes, and the brakes in this case are fear. Love becomes fear when we question the flow state. Effectively, we become uncomfortable with not “knowing” and when we start to analyze how we are doing what we are doing and ask other questions (Where is this going? What will happen to us?), we pull ourselves out of the power of the unconscious into the sludge of the conscious brain. Thus, questioning the flow state is the third bridge that connects love to fear.
With these bridges in mind, how do we close the gates to fear and should we? Whether we should or not, the truth is that we are often driven to. Conventionally, we do so in the following ways: To deal with the “ownership” anxiety we may, in the more extreme cases, marry, for example. But this seems to do little for protecting us from fear. To deal with “trust” fears, we try to be as self-revealing as possible, but this also compromises one’s own personhood. And to deal with the flow state, we schedule times for flow: vacation, sex, or date-nights. But can you really schedule flow? When you give up the mystery, aren’t you moving away from the original source of that positive emotion? Next week, we will take a closer look at strategies we can use to deal with these challenges, but here is an outline of what we will address: (1) Can we get over ownership by “detaching” spiritually? (2) Why should commitment precede trust? (3) How can we understand flow states more deeply so that we are less intimidated about them?
I have to find part two….
Follow Srinivasan Pillay on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/srinipillay
I would very much like to hear Denise’s answers to these questions from Clarence when she gets the chance:
I like to learn lessons from everywhere.
Can you post the links to the posts where you think he is inciting violence? Criminal accusations shouldn’t be given lightly. It’s clear that he has justified violence against women (he says: “I won’t get into the details of what led up to the altercation, except to say that the slap was fully deserved”), but it’s less clear that he is actually inciting it.
I did find the original post where Roissy said:
Assuming Roissy is serious, it’s not clear that he intends this behavior without a consensual context (Roissy might think that the context of consent is obvious). This quote is deeply problematic, but it’s not clear that it is “inciting violence.”
Actually, instead of all the criminal accusations, I have an idea: why don’t I ask him what he really believes? I sent him an email, and I left a comment here. The comment is in moderation; if he responds, I suggest letting me engage him, because I’ll be able to communicate with him better.
Here is what I posted:
————
Dear Roissy,
I’ve read your blog off-and-on for a couple years, and lately you’ve been saying some stuff about about women that’s sounds a bit violent and over-the-top. And unfortunately, since your blog is such a prominent place for discussion of pickup outside the seduction community, a lot of people are reading your stuff and thinking that PUAs in general think it’s cool to hit their girlfriends.
As I’ve studied pickup and seduction for around 7 years, I always find it annoying when people jump to conclusions about pickup when they don’t really know anything about it. I like to talk sense into them… but I don’t appreciate you making my job difficult by giving outsiders a skewed impression of the community and making it look like pickup involves violence.
In Hitting a Woman Will Turn Her On, you tell a story of hitting a woman and say that she “deserved it.” In that post, it sounded like you were saying that it could be acceptable to hit women.
What is your current opinion on the subject? Do you think that it can be acceptable to hit women, or are you just descriptively saying that hitting some women will turn them on? Why, or why not?
It may be true that hitting some women will turn them on, but there’s no reason to believe that women in general are into that. And even if a woman might be into it, that doesn’t make it OK to just spring it on her without consent. There’s a bunch of stuff I like girls doing, like, say, really hard biting… but if a girl just did it without clearing it with me first, I would be pissed.
In another post you say:
Certain people trying to discredit you are saying in this quote that you are “inciting violence.” But I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt, because it would be kinda monstrous to nonconsensually hold someone’s mouth closed to make them swallow cum, and I think you’re an asshole, not a monster:
- Are you serious in that quote, or are you just joking around?
- If so, are you advocating doing this behavior in a context of consensual dominance towards the woman, or not?
If you would publicly clarify your positions on these subjects, then you could save yourself from some potentially unfair criticism (I say “potentially unfair,” because since I don’t know your actual views until you clarify, I can’t say whether the criticism is fair or not). Otherwise, someone reading your blog could take those quotes seriously and go do something fucked-up to some girl. Also, you’re making game look bad, which does a big disservice to anyone who studies game and isn’t into the whole violence against women thing.
I must say I get a kick out of the Jew-baiting by someone named Schwartz vs. someone named “Wiedmann”. I’ll bet both of you are, and I should know because I’m one too and my name can also pass for German.
Proof of roissy advocating pedophilia:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/creepy-children/
proof of roissy advocating coercing women to be sexual when they say NO and do not want to be:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/im-saving-myself-for-an-asshole/
FYI: this is sexual assault even if it doesn’t lead to any kind of penetration.
Dear Ms Romano,
I am not a follower of Roissy or any part of the “pick up” movement. I am a survivor of child sexual abuse. I am quite familiar with the ideology of Jackson Katz. I have now taken the opportunity to acquaint myself with your own positions and behaviour.
Your invitation to share my story with you is rejected. As you have already demonstrated nothing of that personal content would be safe in your hands. There is no doubt in my mind that, at best, you would not be capable of respecting my privacy and, at worst, you would use the information against me.
I would ask that you refrain from speaking to male victims and refrain from addressing the issue of male victims in any way. I would make the same request regarding female perpetrators. DO NOT address the issue at all. You do more harm than good. Leave them alone. The ideology you peddle is a distortion when it comes to child abuse. It distorts the protective and preventative systems we apply as safeguards. You endanger our children by leaving them unprotected and undefended from real threat.
The impact of the continued marginalisation furthered by yourself and other like-minded individuals – Katz being one of numerous examples – leaves an indelible stain. You have blood on your hands Ms Romano. The blood of all those victims who never made it. The blood of male victims. The blood of victims of female abusers. It is a stain that will never wash off.
Proof of roissy’s misogyny:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/06/01/sexual-dystopia-a-glimpse-at-the-future/
Gwallan:
I don’t understand your post at all.
Why exactly do you believe that I would be less than compassionate and supportive to any survivor of childhood abuse regardless of his or her gender?
I am also a survivor of childhood sexual abuse.
And, I have successfully counseled men who are survivors of childhood sexual abuse.
I’m not peddling any ideology. The information I offer on my site to men and women is FREE.
What exactly have I done or said that you are reacting to?
Denise
Only one damaging result of game — causing women to fear, avoid, mistrust, and be wary of men more than we already are due to the prevalence and history of violence against women — when what we really want is to connect with men in a genuine, healhty, joyful, passionate way:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jag-carrao/the-rules-redux-mind-game_b_350948.html
legal definitions of undue influence and duress (used by cults to brainwash and also found in elements of Game, which is why so many of us define game as inherently abusive):
A judicially created defense to transactions that have been imposed upon weak and vulnerable persons that allows the transactions to be set aside.
Virtually any act of persuasion that over-comes the free will and judgment of another, including exhortations, importunings, insinuations, flattery, trickery, and deception, may amount to undue influence.
Undue influence differs from duress, which consists of the intentional use of force, or threat of force, to coerce another into a grossly unfair transaction. Blackmail, Extortion, bad faith threats of criminal prosecution, and oppressive Abuse of Process are classic examples of duress.
Four elements must be shown to establish undue influence.
First, it must be demonstrated that the victim was susceptible to overreaching. Such conditions as mental, psychological, or physical disability or dependency may be used to show susceptibility. Not limited to these, however.
Second, there must be an opportunity for exercising undue influence. Typically, this opportunity arises through a confidential relationship. Courts have found opportunity for undue influence in confidential relationships between Husband and Wife, fiancé and fiancée, Parent and Child, trustee and beneficiary, administrator and legatee, Guardian and Ward, attorney and client, doctor and patient, and pastor and parishioner.
Third, there must be evidence that the defendant was inclined to exercise undue influence over the victim. Defendants who aggressively initiate a transaction, insulate a relationship from outside supervision, or discourage a weaker party from seeking independent advice may be attempting to exercise undue influence.
Fourth, the record must reveal an unnatural or suspicious transaction. Courts are wary, for example, of testators who make abrupt changes in their last will and testament after being diagnosed with a terminal illness or being declared incompetent, especially if the changes are made at the behest of a beneficiary who stands to benefit from the new or revised testamentary disposition.
Nevertheless, courts will examine the facts closely before finding that a transaction has been tainted by undue influence. Mere suspicion, surmise, or conjecture of overreaching is insufficient. The law permits loved ones and confidants to advise and comfort those in need of their support without fear of litigation.
Courts are also aware that the doctrine of undue influence can be used as a sword by the vindictive and avaricious who seek to invalidate a perfectly legal transaction for personal gain. When undue influence is found to have altered a transaction, however, courts will make every effort to return the parties to the same position they would have occupied had the overreaching not occurred.
West’s Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2. The Gale Group, Inc.
For Gwallan and anyone else who will find this info useful:
resources for male survivors of abuse:
http://www.gmdvp.org – Gay Men’s DV Project
http://www.malesurvivor.org – Support and advocacy for male survivors of child sexual abuse.
http://www.barcc.org – Boston Area Rape Crisis Center
a) You peddle Jackson Katz and a false, archaic paradigm.
b) January 1, 2010 at 3:26 PM
c) Your obvious stalking of, and publication of personal detail relating to, at least one individual.
1. Again, I do not “peddle” anything. Jackson Katz is a professional with integrity who does a great deal of good for men, boys, women, and girls. I have featured him on my blog which is FREE for anyone to read.
2. That post was made sincerely. But you seem to assume that women do not share the same pain when in fact approximately 30% of US women do. It seems to me that is another thing men and women can find common ground on. Don’t you think that men and women who are survivors of sexual abuse/assault can understand, support, and help each other heal as people? I do.
3. I’m not stalking anyone. Who are you talking about?
I’m guessing you mean roissy for your last sentence: I also have not published any personal details about him that are not out on the web already as a result of his own interview with a newspaper.
And, further, I am perplexed as to why anyone who is a survivor of sexual abuse would come to the defense of roissy, given the depraved and violent things he writes about women and girls as young as 12 and 14.
Question for you: if there was a woman with a blog and she wrote the very same things about men and boys that roissy writes about women and girls, would she be a misandrist?
Would she be inciting violence against men and boys?
Would she be inciting pedophilia?
Would you want her in prison?
YES, YES, YES, and YES.
These are human problems, not gender problems.
That is one of the most important points we are making. I don’t know why that is so difficult to comprehend.
Denise
An Experiment for those of us in this discussion which may help us understand each other and find common ground:
I’m going to remove all indications of gender for the list below. Please tell me how you feel about these definitions of abuse – regardless of who is being abused and who is doing the abusing.
To use a phrase of LR’s that I rather liked, I don’t care if the X in place of a pronoun stands for a man, a woman, or “a purple flying monkey”; just tell me if you do or do not think any of these fit the definition of abuse. Thanks.
Some things that are worth thinking about when you’re wondering “Was I abused?” include:
Did X embarass or humiliate you in front of other people, including your friends or family?
Did X insist that anything you wanted for yourself was selfish and/or wrong?
Did X withhold affection to “punish” you for any violations of X’s rules?
Did X intimidate you in any way?
Did X threaten you, or threaten to harm Xself or anyone else, if/when you left?
Did X force you to ask for money, or take your money away from you?
Did X have control of the family finances, so you didn’t even know what or when money was being spent?
Did X prevent you from taking a job you wanted, or going to school?
Did X force you, either directly or through manipulation, to quit a job you had?
Did X make jokes about X’s treatment of you, insist that X never did anything to hurt you, or blame you for X’s behavior?
Did X treat you as if you were X’s servant?
Did X ever make you do things you felt were wrong or illegal?
Did X ever belittle your beliefs, or tell you that your faith is wrong?
Did X make you leave social gatherings, or restrict your contact with your friends or family?
Did X make you feel afraid, or like you needed to be “careful” around X?
Did X make you feel guilty or ashamed about yourself, your feelings, your beliefs, or anything else that makes you a unique individual?
Any one of these can be a sign of abuse.
Signs that you’re living with a verbal abuser:
X seems irritated or angry with you several times a week or more although you hadn’t meant to upset X. You are surprised each time. (X says X is not mad when you ask what X is mad about, or X tells you in some way that it’s your fault.)
When you feel hurt or try to discuss your upset feelings with X, you don’t feel as if the issue has been fully resolved, so you don’t feel happy and relieved, nor do you have a feeling that you’ve “kissed and made up”. (X says, “You’re just trying to start an argument!” or in some other way expresses refusal to discuss the situation.)
You are upset not so much about concrete issues — how much time to spend with each other, where to go on vactaion, etc. — as about the communication in the relationship: what X thinks you said and what you actually said — or what X said and what you heard X say.
You sometimes wonder, “What’s wrong with me? I shouldn’t feel so bad.”
X rarely, if ever, seems to want to share X’s thoughts or plans with you.
X seems to take the opposite view from you on almost everything you mention, and X’s view is not qualified by “I think” or “I believe” or “I feel” — as if your view were wrong and X’s were right.
You sometimes wonder if X perceives you as a separate person with a separate will, and separate feelings, needs, opinions, thoughts, and preferences.
X is either angry or has “no idea of what you’re talking about” when you try to discuss an issue with X.
If these signs seem familiar to you, you may be being verbally abused.
And that can be difficult to convince anyone else of, because some identifying traits of verbal abuse include:
Mostly, it’s done in secret. Your abuser usually doesn’t do it where anyone else can witness it.
It usually starts off with little stuff, then gets worse over time, so you get accustomed to it…and other people get accustomed to seeing you suffer it — or react to it. If others only see your reaction but not the actual hidden abuse, you look like the problem.
It comes in many disguises.
It consistently discounts your perceptions. No matter how cruel your partner is, X will deny that anything is wrong.
Finally, physical abuse is always preceded by verbal abuse.
Verbal abuse is hurtful. Especially when it’s denied.
This is also true of emotional and psychological abuse. One example of psychologial abuse is “intermittent reinforcement”.
Verbal abuse attacks your nature and abilities, usually so thoroughly that you begin to believe that there’s something inherently wrong with you, or that your abilities are actually failings.
Verbal abuse may be overt (angry outbursts and namecalling) or covert (subtle stuff, like brainwashing).
Verbal abuse may be voiced in an extremely sincere and concerned way (like when X expresses concern that you just aren’t capable of understanding finances well enough to balance your checkbook).
Verbal abuse is manipulative and controlling.
Verbal abuse is insidious — it destroys your self-esteem, it steals your self-confidence, it brainwashes you to try to change yourself to please your abuser, so X won’t hurt you anymore.
Verbal abuse is unpredictable. No matter how intelligent, careful, or perceptive you are, X will almost always find a way to hit a blind spot you didn’t even know you had.
Verbal abuse is the issue in the relationship. In non-abusive relationships, arguments are over concrete things that can be resolved. In an abusive relationship, there is no specific conflict – the whole point of any argument is to make you suffer.
Verbal abuse expresses a double message. For example, X will say something like “I love you”, and then spend 4 hours raving about how love is worthless and all that matters is power; or X will scream “I’m not mad!” in a rage-filled voice; or X will suggest going out to dinner, and then treat you like a servant.
Verbal abuse usually escalates, increasing in intensity, frequency, and variety.
For example, early in the relationship X may make jokes about you, and as time goes on X will start “punishing” you by withholding affection, namecalling, accusing and blaming, undermining, maybe even escalating into face-slapping, kicking, biting, scratching, or even use of weapons.
So, I’m curious to hear your thoughts and feelings about this.
Thanks
Denise
Lady Raine, are you and Roissy the same person?
is this a trick to generate traffic?
About the info someone could find on you at work, that is illegal. It sounds as a dare to do something one would get fired for.
“The ego epidemic: How more and more of us women have an inflated sense of our own fabulousness” | Mail Online
By Lucy Taylor
~
Us women are more egocentric and narcissistic than we ever used to be, according to extensive research by two leading psychologists.
More of us have huge expectations of ourselves, our lives and everyone in them. We think the universe resolves around us, with a deluded sense of our own fabulousness, and believe we are cleverer, more talented and more attractive than we actually are.
We have trouble accepting criticism and extending empathy because we are so preoccupied with ourselves.
Am I making you angry by telling you this? It figures. Narcissistic or egotistical women do have an overwhelming sense of entitlement and arrogance.
Of course, I joke, but researchers say there is growing evidence of an epidemic of ego-itis everywhere.
Once a traditionally male syndrome, narcissism generally begins at home and in schools, where children are praised excessively, often spoiled rotten and given the relentless message that they are ‘special’.
Psychology professors Jean Twenge and Keith Campbell analysed studies on 37,000 college students in 2006.
In a survey, 30 per cent of them said they believed they should get good grades simply for turning up.
And it’s not just about how intelligent they think they are. In the workplace, in friendships, even in motherhood, the pervading culture seems to have become one of competitiveness, superiority and one-upmanship.
But the sphere in which the signs of self-obsession are perhaps most obvious, and the consequences most immediately felt, is the dating one.
In a recent magazine article, four women in their late 20s and 30s shared their thoughts about why they were still single. A 39-year-old beauty director claimed to be too independent for a relationship.
A 38-year-old music agent attributed her single status to the fact she was an alpha female – independent, feisty, strong-minded, high-achieving and intimidating.
She pointed out that she owned a gorgeous flat with gorgeous things in it, had a nice car, was a member of a fancy gym and wore designer dresses. ‘I do what I like, when I like,’ she said.
She’d been told, and appears to believe, that she’s too successful and too well-educated for most men.
The third woman, a 30-year- old arts writer and curator, has been having too much fun to settle down.
Another, a 29-year-old, said she was too picky. She was looking for a guy who is (just) tall enough. And (just about) good-looking enough (but not too good-looking so that she’d play second fiddle).
He needs to be successful, solvent and driven. He must also be long on genuinely good jokes, with a decent sideline in bad ones that only she finds funny.
He needs to ‘speak good restaurant’, to have no special dietary requirements and to always be discerning without ever being fussy.
He needs to be clever without ever making her feel stupid. He needs to ‘get’ but not ‘know’ fashion…and so the list went on.
She concluded that she would rather eat wasps than share her Sunday with anyone who fails to measure up to her idea of Mr Perfect.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with having high expectations. But being delusional and having a totally unrealistic blueprint are an altogether different matter.
And they often go hand in hand with acute ego-itis. As Margot Medhurt knows only too well.
She is the founder of Yours Sincerely, an Edinburgh-based personal dating and introduction agency for professionals. She has almost 30 years’ experience in the industry and has noticed a significant rise in this phenomenon in recent years.
‘It used to be that most women who joined a dating agency had a pretty good idea of where they stood in the eligibility stakes,’ she said. ‘But in the past few years, I’ve noticed that there are a significant number of women who don’t.
‘They tend to be in their 30s, and there is a wide discrepancy between how they perceive themselves and how others see them.
‘They are often very plain, but see themselves as being absolutely fabulous, exceptional people.
‘They invariably reject every guy’s profile I send them. But if a guy rejects their profile, there is all hell to pay. There is disbelief. They are really saying: “I’m so fabulous. How dare he turn me down?”
‘In the past few years, I’ve noticed a real sense of entitlement among this small group of women. The idea that a guy might not find them as amazing as they find themselves doesn’t enter their head.
‘They often become indignant and angry towards me, demanding to know why a guy dared to turn them down. Most people simply accept the facts of the dating game: some people will find you attractive and others won’t, in the same way that you’ll be drawn to some but not others.
‘These women, however, are unable to get their heads around the fact that the rest of the world might not share the distorted, inflated view they have of themselves.’
She said she had a eureka moment when she read a recent article about the rise in narcissism among women.
According to the American research, there has been a 67 per cent increase in it over the past two decades, mainly among women.
An estimated ten per cent of the population suffers from narcissism as a full-blown personality disorder.
The symptoms include: a grandiose sense of self-importance; the belief that he or she is special or unique and in some way better – either intellectually or physically – than others; a requirement for excessive admiration; a sense of entitlement, whether to fame, fortune, success and happiness or simply to special treatment; enviousness of others or a belief that others are envious of him or her; an inability to empathise; an inability to admit a mistake; and haughty behaviour or attitude.
What researchers have also identified, and are far more worried about, is what has been described as ‘normal’ narcissism – a cultural shift that has seen even non-narcissistic people seduced by the emphasis on material wealth, physical appearance and celebrity worship.
The researchers believe our culture brings out narcissistic behaviour in almost all of us.
They blame the internet (where ‘fame’ is a click away), reality television (where the lure of fame without talent is most prevalent), easy credit (which enables people to buy far beyond their ability to pay), celebrity worship, our highly consumerist, competitive and individualistic society, and a generation of indulgent parents who have raised their children to think they’re special, amazing and perfect.
According to Twenge, this focus on self-admiration has caused a cultural flight from reality to the land of grandiose fantasy.
We have phony rich people (who actually have massive mortgages and piles of debt), phony beauty (via plastic surgery), phony celebrities (via reality TV and YouTube), phony genius students (with grade inflation) and phony friends (with the social networking explosion).
‘I had noticed this trend, but wasn’t really sure what it was all about,’ says Margaret Medhurt.
‘However, when I read that article and thought about the unrealistic expectations and sense of entitlement among some of the women, it really struck a chord.
‘One of the cases that brought it home to me involved a 38-year-old businesswoman.
‘I knew there were going to be problems right away. As soon as someone joins the agency, we get things moving very quickly – but this wasn’t quick enough for this woman.
‘She wanted a date immediately. The first man I sent her profile to declined an introduction and she was extremely cross. She couldn’t accept it and she couldn’t even be polite about it.
‘In three weeks, three men turned her down. I explained that it takes time to meet someone but she just got angrier and angrier. She was demanding to know why these guys did this. I was trying to get the balance right – between being honest with her and being tactful.
‘I think, ultimately, she had a very flawed perception of herself. And she almost couldn’t bear that it was being challenged. It was as if she couldn’t deal with the fact that some guys didn’t think she was amazing – and she left.’
Men, traditionally regarded as the more self-centred of the species and the rogues of the mating game, are left scratching their heads and pondering Freud’s famous question: what do women want?
David Baxter (not his real name) is a 40-year-old management consultant. Previously married for nine years, he joined a dating agency in the summer.
He says he’s not perfect, but is told he’s an eligible and pleasant guy with a lot to offer.
‘I’ve had three successive dates recently with ladies in the late 30s to early 40s age bracket that have left me dumbfounded,’ he said.
‘I’ve never come across such massive egos, such arrogance and lack of basic courtesy.
‘It was as if these particular dates were a forum for them to tell me how exceptional they were. One told me repeatedly how many young guys at the gym asked her out; another was very artificial.
‘You sensed that they absolutely worshipped themselves, though none of them was drop-dead gorgeous or had amazing personalities, jobs or anything else to set them apart and elevate themselves into some superior position.
‘I also thought it was quite telling that none of them had ever been married, engaged or had recently – or perhaps ever – been in a long-term relationship.
‘I got the feeling that these women were living in a Sex And The City-inspired fantasy world. I also sensed that nobody would ever be good enough for them.
‘They seem to be looking for something that doesn’t exist: Mr Perfect, or perhaps some larger-than-life, dashingly handsome and unattainable character such as that portrayed by Mr Big. Nothing else will do.’
Despite his recent experience, David still considers himself lucky.
‘I’m still positive about the whole thing, but I have friends who are not so optimistic and it’s evident that encounters with these sort of women seriously erode their self-confidence, which is a real shame. There are a lot of genuine, decent guys out there who are getting a rough deal.’
Neil Hay is a 32-year-old former professional golfer-turned-financial consultant who lives on the outskirts of Edinburgh.
After taking some time out following the death of his mother, he joined a dating agency almost a year ago.
‘It’s made me terribly cynical, not just about the way women are, but also about what on earth it is that they are looking for in a guy,’ he said.
‘Of course, we all have standards and preferences. There’s nothing wrong with that. But most of us are also realistic. We know that Cheryl Cole is out of our league.
‘I had been hoping to meet someone who was quite nice-looking, with a good personality, someone to go for dinner and to the cinema and have a decent conversation with. But I’m left feeling that this isn’t what women are looking for.
‘It’s as if they want to be swept off their feet right from the first date, as if they’re waiting for someone like Brad Pitt or George Clooney. They’re not interested in a regular, normal, decent guy. That’s not good enough for them.
‘I spent three hours on a date with one woman. I thought we got on brilliantly, but then she said she didn’t want to meet again.
‘This has happened a few times. It makes me think that if you don’t live up to their perfect fantasy, then that’s it. It’s game over before you’ve even had any chance to begin to get to know each other.
‘It does dent your confidence. I’m left thinking either that there’s something wrong with me or that I’ll just never be whatever it is that these women are looking for.
‘I know there are a lot of single women who say things like they’re too independent, too feisty, too confident or too successful for men. Or they claim that men are intimidated by strong, intelligent and independent women.
‘But this is simply not the case. I think they just tell themselves this. It’s a way of rationalising things. It’s as if it’s easier for them to believe their own myths than to face reality – that they are completely ordinary.’
~
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1213212/The-ego-epidemic-more-inflated-sense-fabulousness.html
Women aren’t the only narcissists in today’s society. How many men out there are just into themselves, have inflated egos and an inability to empathize?
It’s the times we live in.
Yes, narcissim is a problem. Abuse is a problem.
The gender of those engaging in either is less important than the unacceptable behavior, which is unacceptable regardless of who is exhibiting it.
Deinise quote The woman he writes about who he dated – the one he claims to have hit and then he further claims that she liked it – she was assaulted by him.
I recall R saying that he once slapped a woman because she pulled a knife out on him. Now, do I agree with a man(esp R) slapping around a woman, heck no but this is one circumstance where I can look the other way.
I’m confused. are you saying the woman in the story he tells under his post “Hitting Women Turns Them On” is the woman who pulled a knife on him or are you referencing a different story he told?
I think you’re saying it’s a different story. Here is what I think:
1. If someone pulls a knife on someone, I think the first impulse would be to move away from that person, not get closer and escalate whatever is going on.
2. If the knife pulling is accompanied by lunging and the slap is a defensive move to deflect from being stabbed – then I agree – regardless of the gender of either person – certainly a defensive move is understandable.
3. I do not think that his one story about having a knife pulled on him in any way justifies his post titled “Hitting Women Turns Them On” and the story he tells in that post – or the untrue, violent, misogynistic, abusive message of that post.
And I don’t care if he meant it “tongue-in-cheek”.
If I wrote something that I meant tongue-in-cheek that justified or attempted to justify women abusing men – I would be called worse things than I’m being called now for simply identifying and opposing violence against women and stating that both men and women need to be held to the same behavioral standards.
I understand what you’re saying – you’re making the point that there are times when any of us might need to hit someone in self-defense. I think any reasonable person would agree, and I agree.
However, I also do not think that acknowledging that truth for all of us in any way gets r off the hook for that post, which in my view, does incite felony assault against women.
KJW -
I fail to see any resemblance whatsoever between LR and roissy.
What are you talking about?
Denise
are you saying the woman in the story he tells under his post “Hitting Women Turns Them On” is the woman who pulled a knife on him or are you referencing a different story he told?
He didn’t write that in the post but he wrote that in another comment to me. I can’t recall if he was talking about the same woman but for some reason I think he was.
I think he slapped her and disarmed the woman Denise.
If someone pulls a knife on someone, I think the first impulse would be to move away from that person, not get closer and escalate whatever is going on.
Except when it’s a woman pulling a knife on a man. Most men don’t see women as much of a threat so yea, many men would try to disarm a woman. don’t forget that R isn’t a smalll man. Chances are he outweighed his “ladyfriend” by 80+ pounds and was at least 10 inches taller.
do not think that his one story about having a knife pulled on him in any way justifies his post titled “Hitting Women Turns Them On” and the story he tells in that post – or the untrue, violent, misogynistic, abusive message of that post.
I’m in no way arguing that point denise. Look back at that post and I think he and I got into it pretty heavy. I was just attempting to give you the full story or what I can recall the full story possibly being.
And I don’t care if he meant it “tongue-in-cheek”.
I don’t either. It was tastless and takcy. FYI, there were a number of guys who wrote in on that post, guess what, many of them didn’t like it either.
Thanks so much for clarifying.
I did not think you were supporting his message – i was just clarifying.
and i’m very encouraged that there were men who wrote in to voice dissent.
I still feel there is something important to be said here though – and that is about “the full story”
Do we really know the full story? What happened prior to her pulling a knife on him?
I do think that is important.
I’m also not saying that anyone pulling a knife on someone is an ideal response – just as hitting someone is not – AND – i’m also saying we are talking about roissy who has proven that he has zero respect for women and is abusive emotionally, psychologically, verbally, sexually, and physically.
So, I won’t consider this the full story unless I can ever talk to the woman in question.
And, just to head off the inevitable attacks that I would believe her over him w/o knowing either of them – not necessarily – HOWEVER – given roissy’s bragging about his rampant and constnat abusiveness to women, his attempts to justify it all by saying women want it that way, and his belief that women should have no voting rights and should be regarded as having the brains of small children and should have our entire lives biologically determined for us –
I will admit that I would be shocked if I did not find whatever she claimed he did to her prior to the knife-pulling as credible.
Thoughts?
I’m not at my computer at the moment so I’m not going to check that story, but does that mean that Roissy had SEX with woman after she pulled a knife on him???
That does NOT make sense. They’d BOTH have to be stone cold psycho.
I was with an abusive drunk many years ago and even HE never “pulled a knife followed by slap fight”…..and then sex???
Um, no. Something doesn’t fit here
LR – you’re right AND let’s not foget that if he did have sex with her after her pulling a knife on him that would violate so many of his own maxims and commandments – and how she would have proven herself unworthy of his preciousness and how he should just ignore her or tell her to leave to punish her…..
LR EDIT: Well yes! I mean….that story alone proves that somehow Roissy is only meeting stone-cold Psychopathic, Violent women. (Not a big mystery there, if thats the case)….OR that Roissy is lying about the whole “knife pulling” incident in an attempt to backpedal on his post saying that “hitting women turns them on” (the lying and backpedaling is most likely because Roissy is known for both and also for being a coward when he’s called on his bullshit) OR that he REALLY IS desperate enough that he’d even CONSIDER having sex with a woman who pulled a knife on him?! Which means he has no respect for himself, no standards WHATSOEVER in selecting a woman, and even intentionally engages in an abusive relationship.
What does that say about him? Well…..pretty much all the things we already guessed….and much more.
Clarence and others -
I won’t be able to answer the questions about NVC today or tonight. Too much other stuff going on and I’ve had very limited time today in short spurts.
But I hope to do so either tmrw or weds or thursday.
Thanks
Denise
To Uh Huh : Most people that have Narcissistic Personality Disorder are men and usually these guys don’t want to be treated. If you read forums about NPD, there are full of very patient women that are stuck with a Narcissist. When people talk about Narcissism with women, they usually mean egotism and attention seeking which is not the same thing.
To Denise : Since Roissy is targeting severely issued women, I wonder if some of his date are not with Borderlines or Psychopaths. That would explain the knife and why he says that these women want to be dominated. I don’t know if you’ve seen this movie “Looking for Mr Goodbar” made in 1977 about the murder of Roseann Quinn. She was a schoolteacher that had one night stands every week and the guys that she was bringing home were low-life. They were smoking pot and drinking alcohol and frequently there was fightings between her and her lovers. She was murdered by one of the guy that she brought home.
Denise.
What do you expect a post like this does to A: someone who does not like/hate what Roissy writes B: someone who is a Roissy Fan?
For person A: it is preaching to the choir
for person B: this article is deepening the Roissy cult status.
Perhaps you expect different results in a situation like this, but to me that does not seem the case.
The Roissy and LR personas as product from a creative online writer seem plausible. They generate synergy, but maybe they are just playing games.
you hurt/tease the ones you love.
KJW –
I’m having trouble understanding you. Which post are you refering to?
There are alot of people in between your definitions of A and B, and I don’t think those are the only reactions that A and B can have to anything critical that has been stated about r. by me or anyone else.
I don’t see r as merely a “persona” but as an actual person who is intentionally trying to have influence and who actually does have influence. Whether he is “out” about who he really is or not is of no consequence to this issue.
As for your last sentence, I’m also unsure of what you mean. Are you saying that I intentionally hurt/tease the ones I love or are you saying that I unintentionally do this?
And, I also don’t understand what you’re saying. Do you know me and those I love? I ask with sincerity.
I don’t believe I intentionally hurt or tease those I love.
I do believe that any of us feels hurt that happens unintentionally in any love or family or close relationship from the time we’re infants.
But it seems like you’re alluding to something else.
I’m never up this early. I’m on an insane dealine and my sleep is all messed up right now.
But I saw this and realized I could respond in a few minutes.
LR EDIT: Denise, believe it or not I’ve been accused of being a “Computer Generated Persona that the Feminists are using to trick and control their readers”…..have been accused of NOT EVEN BEING A REAL PERSON (talk about issues, eh?)….and even being a character in a story written by ONE supreme ghostwriter who has some sort of vendetta against men and the world. You would not believe how incredibly delusional and out of touch with reality some people really ARE.
However, I think KJW was trying to imply that “Some people might think Roissy is a normal, somewhat credible blogger” and that by us being AGAINST him as a person AND a blogger somehow VALIDATES his beliefs about women, men, and the world. (therefore making him more liked and popular?)
The problem is that ANYONE who reads Roissy and thinks that those are “normal dark thoughts” a person has……is someone who is already deeply in need of professional help. Roissy’s posts allow some sick and deranged people to believe that his kind of thoughts/attitudes are “normal” and NOT “sick and depraved”. Those people think Roissy speaks for the common man.
This allows them to feel that they are NOT mentally ill, NOT sick, and are just being LIED TO by society so that they don’t have to admit that if they think Roissy’s beliefs are “benign”….they are already about 10 years late to the Psychiatrist they should have already been seeing long ago.
It’s sort of the REVERSE of when you see a person read a psychotic killer’s diary and find ONE thing that is somehow “common ground” and therefore think that they themselves are sick, depraved psychos because of that ONE thing in common with the Psychopath. These guys have rampant violent, sick, hateful, depraved, and abusive thoughts….and when they see a “normal average guy” like Roissy saying SOME of the things that they think about themselves…..
They latch onto him like a personal Jesus and think “Look! Look! Here’s someone else who thinks like me and ISN’T committed already! I must be just fine and totally justified in my beliefs!”
Therefore those men ATTACK people like Denise and myself as “imaginary online characters” or even just “liars” because we are in some way shattering that image of themselves that they have conditioned themselves to see. That’s very dangerous for any man, woman, or child.
“Most people that have Narcissistic Personality Disorder are men and usually these guys don’t want to be treated. If you read forums about NPD, there are full of very patient women that are stuck with a Narcissist. When people talk about Narcissism with women, they usually mean egotism and attention seeking which is not the same thing.”
Sorry there, but egotism and attention-seeking is most definately a component of narcissism. Male and female narcissists primarily differ in how they express their narcissism (plus the article specifically mentions (and stresses) the *ego* epidemic among women).
If you were not so busy ‘white-knighting’ here you would be able to see and understand this fact.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1213212/The-ego-epidemic-more-inflated-sense-fabulousness.html
“…full of very patient women that are stuck with a Narcissist…”
Really, these “poor”, “patient women” are “stuck” with “these brutes”?!? How stupid.
Additionally, just reinforces the reality that these ‘types’ of women are attracted to these psychopaths.
“Sorry there, but egotism and attention-seeking is most definately a component of narcissism. Male and female narcissists primarily differ in how they express their narcissism…” – Me
In other words (like so many things in life) this issue, narcissism, is not an all-or-nothing proposition, but rather traits based on a continuum.
I don’t get this comment, either Denise.
I think he/she (KJW) is trying to say that all this makes Roissy look GOOD?!
Only a deeply disturbed individual could read Roissy’s blog and NOT be sickened by the depravity, abuse, hatred, violence, misogyny, and rape encouragement.
If you somehow think that a man who is a criminal in EVERY sense of the word is a “hero” to anything but mentally ill people/ criminals, then you probably should immediately seek counseling.
MRA’s are bad enough…..so are “Revenge Feminists”….but Roissy genuinely seems to think his behavior (and the behavior of his “followers”) is “normal” and is anything other than depraved and criminal.
I’ll be he and some PUA’s don’t realize that mentally stable adult men and women really DON’T think of each other the way that they do! They want to believe that everyone feels these things deep down…..they don’t.
I never even realized that there were still this many problems (between genders) and especially not this much misogyny/misandry going around!
Even after dating an abuser like my ex…..I have never considered OTHER men my “enemy” or a slave to “control” or an opponent to “win” against.
Like most “normal” people, I know deep down that he was just one man out of many and doesn’t represent anyone other than himself.
I still don’t understand why these PUA’S seem to really believe that mentally stable women see them as show horses to train and think about “power plays”. They don’t.
If you have come across that kind of woman, she is mentally unstable and to be avoided (for dating). Those type of women do NOT represent other women…..just themselves and are in need of counseling as badly as the men “gaming” them.
This whole conversation on Narcissism is obvious. Remember how I posted on the entitlement of modern men and women in “Why People Are Assholes”??
This is something affecting BOTH genders and it IS a matter of being told that they are:
1. Not to blame for their own failures, shortcomings, and negatives
2. That “society” and their childhood is responsible for any and ALL problems that involve THEM being wrong (ie: another example of the misuse of Psychology….except in this case, it’s misuse of Sigmund Freud’s theories instead of Jung.)
As children, parents are no longer teaching them to EARN their way through life. Their is this dumb hippie idea that if you REWARD your child for EVERY little thing they do…..they won’t have to feel pain or rejection. No. This is called “enabling” and is considered unhealthy and problematic for both men AND women. (And yet most parents are STILL taught that you must ignore the “negatives” and excuse them…..but APPLAUD each and every thing they do right.)
Enabling by parents, society, teachers, friends, and even some Psychological Professionals is at least HALF the problem with modern “entitled” America.
I was raised by VERY strict, VERY traditional, and VERY religious parents. Even though they were “well off” we were never “handed” any money or spoils. We were taught that they (my parents) EARNED those things through hard work and sacrifice and self-improvement/motivation…..not “given” like a gift from above.
I used to “hate” my parents (like all teenagers) for those things. Now I realize that they helped me A LOT by making me get a job and support myself by age 14 (even though they could have easily done that FOR ME). For telling me that “Failure does not exist unless YOU allow it to” and that maybe if you failed….it’s because you just weren’t motivated enough….
NOT “well maybe your boss is unfair and fails to see your many positives” or “Maybe your bf just doesn’t deserve you”. Self introspection and awareness is tantamount to being a mentally/physically healthy and able adult man or woman.
It’s no wonder why SO many adults and young adults now seem to be lacking even the most basic self-introspection tools.
You’ve got “Revenge Feminists” telling women that even if they have NEVER been oppressed because of their gender….the MOMENT something goes wrong….it’s because you are oppressed as a woman. NOT because maybe you are lazy, not qualified, unmotivated, or even paranoid.
You’ve got MRA’s and PUA’s who somehow have gotten the impression that they were born DESERVING of a happy life, a beautiful wife, a couple of kids, and a successful career. When they DON’T attain those things as easily as they THINK they should, they have been trained to close their eyes and IGNORE anything that could be BECAUSE of them. They project their weakness onto the women they are hating/gaming.
Furthermore, some PUA’S will say “WHAT? It’s ALL about self improvement!”. No, it is not.
When a PUA says “self improvement” they mean that you should access, manipulate, and morph temporarily into whatever you THINK that woman might like. If she DOESN’T like it, then it goes to the whole “special snowflake” and “qualifying herself” methods which means: “Well if you aren’t successful with her immediately, then you should immediately assume it’s a problem with how SHE views HERSELF, ignore it, and just try to WIN against her.” (Instead of saying to himself “Hmmm, maybe this woman really IS out of my league” or maybe “I’m just not her type.” or even “Maybe I am presenting myself in the wrong way.”
OH NO, we’d NEVER want men to be honest with themselves THAT way!! We have to pat them on the head like children and say “Oh, no sweetie….clearly there is something wrong with HER. And her….and her….and HER, too. It couldn’t POSSIBLY be that you’re just not a very likable guy for reasons that are valid.”
Somehow these PUA’s have been taught to go from Point A……right to Point G. Instead of considering all the logical and valid possibilities of WHY a woman might not like you……you have been taught to forget all that nasty introspection and just go right to “G” and think: “She doesn’t like me for me??? She’s a bitch, a narcissist, and an entitled princess and therefore deserves whatever manipulation and abuse I choose to put her through regardless of the fact that this woman MIGHT ACTUALLY BE too smart, too attractive, and too different from me be attracted to him.
A lot of people here seem to be forgetting that Narcissism goes both ways. And being “angry and vengeful” toward women JUST because you CAN’T have a Supermodel, a Rocket Scientist, or a Wealthy Sugar-Momma….is JUST as unhealthy and Narcissistic as the women you are trying to date.
We have all been “conditioned” to believe that we “deserve” Mr./Mrs. Right JUST because we are a “nice person” and happen to have been born into this world.
The truth is, that you have to EARN respect, admiration, luxury, and even “love” through hard work yourself….and if you AREN’T willing to fight and scrap your way into “becoming a better person” then you have NO ONE to blame but yourself. Period.
The ONLY things we are “entitled” to is an “equal shot at life” just like everyone else. Note I said “an equal SHOT” and not “a pre-arranged and completely undeserved happy life handed to you”.
*Just notiiced this one -
An Open Letter To Denise Romano, MA, EdM (A MAJOR Corrective To Her Views On Game, & Other Issues…) « The Obsidian Files
http://theobsidianfiles.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/an-open-letter-to-denise-romano-ma-edm-a-major-corrective-to-her-views-on-game-other-issues/
Denise, you are either fucking psychotic or deliberately misleading. The link you posted:
—————
Proof of roissy advocating pedophilia:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/creepy-children/
————————-
Does no such thing as advocate paedophilia – his last statement “Why hasten the day?” is an obvious decrying of the sexualisation of young girls in the name of commerce. If you want to have a cause or crusade then you would be put to good use attacking those corporations who sell “Playboy” clothing to young children or use pre-pubescent girls as models.
LR EDIT: No you are deliberately and dangerously IGNORANT. Roissy’s article would be like if a RAPIST said to his victim BEFORE raping her: “Look I’m not a rapist….and I’m totally against rape…BUT I’m going to rape you anyway.” And then proceeding to rape the woman and BE an actual rapist. Would you say “Well clearly NO CRIME was committed there because that guy SAID he ISN’T a rapist!!!”
Um, no. You’d be watching the CRIMINAL be taken away (likely to the loony bin and then the Electric Chair) in handcuffs and tossed in prison for life if they used that rationalization.
Furthermore, it’s not like it’s a “fluke” that was in bad taste. He has REPEATEDLY posted photos of minors, allowed graphic sexual comments ABOUT the children/minors, and even NARRATED his own encouragement of that kind of behavior and viewpoint. That is NOT a “bad taste coincidence” nor is it even a rational and intelligent response on your part.
(Remember the “MILF beats DILF” post that he has since removed because Word Press agreed that it was illegal and criminal???? Where he posted a photo of a mother and her OBVIOUSLY underage daughter and then commentated in the post about how “for once the mother is more fuckable than her much younger daughter”. FOLLOWED BY comments narrating what the GROWN ADULT MALE men reading their would “do to the young girl”, how they would “keep a thumb on her until she’s ripe and than move in for the kill when she’s around 16″ and even graphic descriptions of what the male commentors would make the MOTHER do to her DAUGHTER sexually. You don’t think that’s ALSO sick and depraved? Seek help.)
Same thing. Even though he is supposedly AGAINST this sort of media abuse….he then turns around and FIGHTS that by REPOSTING the young girls pictures, discussing them in a sexual graphic manner, and then even NARRATES that “Girls ripen into WOMANHOOD by age 14 and men fantasize about violating their every hole.”
Stu:
This is what r wrote under the photo of the girl he estimates to be 12 years old (and if he finds her sexualized appearance to be so disturbing, why does he post her photo? Did he get her parents permission to post h
her photo?)
R’s full statement under her photo, which you fail to acknowledge:
“In a couple of years, the girl above will be kind of hot. You can already see the basic ingredients are there. A friendly reminder to the parents: When she ripens into womanhood (age 14) men twice her age will fantasize about violating all of her innocent openings.”
This is a perfect example of how r is both a misandrist and a misogynist:
1. He states that the age of 14 is “ripened into womanhood”.
2. He states that men (and in doing so implies this means ALL men) who are in their late 20s (and older given his own age) will fantasize about sex with her – but that he doesn’t stop there.
He makes sure to use the most vulgar and dehumanizing language he can to describe a young girl of 12 or 14 – and uses this phrase: “violating all of her innocent openings”.
This is hateful to both men and women. It is also not the language or posting of a man who intends to curb the sexualization of children – as he just did it.
12 is underage. 14 is underage and certainly not womanhood.
Perhaps the authorities will decide. Then we’ll see.
to: “uh-huh”:
Yes, “obisidan” let me know on my blog that he’d be posting his letter to me. I will respond when I’m able to do so.
But, first I will respond to a question posed by Clarence about NVC or other methods can help men with women. Others have asked for this question to be answered as well.
I will not have time to devote to those responses until later this week or early next week, however I will respond.
I also want to thank those who have engaged in these discussions on LR’s blog and on mine.
I have learned from all of the comments, even those that make no point other than to express anger.
I really do believe that these are very important discussions for all people, regardless of gender, sexuality, age, beauty, status, etc.
And, I’m particularly grateful to Hugh and Daran from feministcritic.com, who have really helped me understand several important points. I have to say that Clarence and Lady Raine have also taught me some very important things as well.
And, so as a result, I am in the process of making significant changes to my blog. Many of my positions and goals are the same, however, I do see that I’ve been reacting with anger instead of connecting – just as many men are doing when they reply to my blog.
This is not necessarily bad, for what I learn is that there is tremendous anger and misunderstanding out there.
I echo what LR said in a recent post – until I discovered the PUA and MRA scenes, I had NO idea that there were men who felt this way. I had NO idea there was so much misinformation flying around – and worse – being sold.
I also had no idea there were such painful feeilngs of loneliness, emptiness, hurt, rejection, insecurity, and fear. I do have tremendous compassion for that, and I do want to understand it more fully with the help of those who wish to participate in these discussions.
I also do believe it’s very important to acknowledge that both men and women have suffered abuse, confusion about social roles, confusion about dating and relating, frustration around dating/relating/mating, and that these are human problems and it is not a competition about who has been more disenfranchised or harmed.
I think the point is that both men and women have been harmed by issues pertaining to gender roles in history and now. I also think that misinformation harms people as does a lack of critical thinking and an eagerness to see the other gender as the enemy.
I do not and have never seen men as the enemy. However, having said that, Hugh and Daran have helped me to see that my blog could be interpreted that way by some men.
So I want to sensitive and resonsive to that, and that is why I will be looking very carefully at the language I used, the format, and how I align my blog with my stated goals.
Finally, in NVC there is a concept of how human beings can listen with two different kinds of “ears”.
“Jackal ears” are those that judge the self and the other, which I think revenge feminists and extremist MRAs provide us with examples of.
I am not a revenge feminist and I never have been. Have I been angry and frustrated? Of course! I think we all have. So, certainly, I have used “jackal ears” and will be more mindful of when I’m doing that.
“Giraffe ears” are those that listen to the feeilngs and needs of ourselves and others with empathy and a goal toward understanding. This is not always easy to do, especially if youre surrounded by others in “jackal mode”.
Emotional Intelligence reserch teaches us that emotions are in fact contagious (David Caruso, Yale).
I have seen and experienced this first hand, and I do believe it’s the key to finding common ground for men and women on these issues.
Only when I am in “giraffe mode” am I able to see value in comments full of anger and nothing else. Only when my readers and posters are in giraffe mode, are they able to share information with me in a way that I receive it well.
This is true for all human beings, regardless of gender.
NVC also teaches us to value our jackals, for they have alot to teach us. They teach us about what makes us angry, what we value dearly, what our core needs are and many other things.
Using NVC and giraffe mode truly does has transformational potential and helps us understand, connect, and learn.
However, it does require effort, time, and energy.
I’m really quite excited about incorporating what I’ve learned into my approach.
Thanks to all who taught me something,
Denise
Denise –
There’s a post @ the-spearhead for you:
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/01/05/an-open-letter-to-denise-romano-ma-edm/
Not sure if Obsidian will repost the same on his blog or not.
LR EDIT: Not a good place to mention. The Spearhead is ALSO one of the groups who supports and protects Roissy’s hate and abuse. They WON’T allow me to post there without de-linking my blog, won’t allow commentors to link my blog, and wouldn’t let me even MENTION Roissy…..saying that it goes against their “morals and policies”
And then in the same breath allowed one of THEIR commentors to post a link to the ORIGINAL “Is Lady Raine in this Porno” post that INCLUDED the photo of my 5 year old son! They also link Roissy in their blogroll and have him contribute to their posts.
Weird how Mr M. SAYS he doesn’t follow Roissy or approve of his methods….but POSTS at Roissy’s agreeing with him.
How the Spearhead SAYS they don’t post “amoral” information or personal info about people (or even allow it to be linked) but will allow posts with minor children in them to be linked and posted whenever they’d like (such as links to my son’s photo and comments at Roissy’s)
Futhermore, Mr M. ALSO posts at The Spearhead who LINKS and has Roissy CONTRIBUTE THERE…..but STILL says he doesn’t support misogyny, violence, or hatred against women?
Sooooo…. Mr M does NOT support misogyny and abuse of women with his Love Systems company…BUT reads and comments at an openly misogynist and abusive “MRA” sites.
Mr M ALSO does not support Roissy and doesn’t even consider him a “PUA”….but posts in favor of Roissy’s comments both at Roissy’s blog AND at The Spearhead…..
And Savoy ALSO supposedly “doesn’t even know who Roissy is”…..but then Mr M. is a follower and supporter of Roissy’s site AND a self proclaimed MRA/Misogyny site…at the same company as Savoy….but they “know nothing of this”.
Now we have OBSIDIAN….who supposedly DENOUNCES all abuse and negative Gaming of women…..and where is HE reading and discussing his questions to Denise? At THE SPEARHEAD. Even though he claims to speak AGAINST misogyny and abuse. Weird, but a guy who is SO AGAINST those things sure does spend a lot of time reading and commenting at the MRA/PUA sites like Roissy’s and The Spearhead that OPENLY hate and disrespect women for amusement. Yeah, Obsidian…it’s all just a coincidence, isn’t it?
Does anyone else see the OBVIOUS lying, covering up, and backscratching of violent misogynistic bloggers and “MRAs” by the PUA Community??? Hmmmm those are QUITE the string of coincidences, aren’t they???
None of them “support him” by their own admission. None of them support violence and misogyny. But they ALL post at, comment, and read at the WORST and most VIOLENT misogyny and MRA/PUA sites known??? Hmmm that looks an awful lot like “support” to me, doesn’t it?
Yes, and don’t forget, Mr. M said he’d like to buy Roissy a drink.
It takes a village to rape a woman.
This is an excellent article:
http://minou999.wordpress.com/2009/08/05/the-dark-side-of-the-pua/#comment-16
LR –
That’s a lot of quibble over a simple informing Denise here about a post made her direction.
I don’t think I’ve once said any of the things you claim I’ve said nor do I think my daily read-intake or blog/comment posting reflects upon my personal beliefs. I read feminists websites too, you know…does that make me a feminist? What’s with the knee-jerk response? Actually – don’t answer.
Denise –
I would buy roissy a drink – fairly certain he’s an entertaining individual to speak to. Not sure why you brought up a reference to rape, though. Little alarmist, no? Regardless, post for you @ the website.
Denise –
Re: that link, I actually think obsidian lays down a better “dark side” of PUA than what that article claims.
You’re right Mr. M it IS but that’s because both Denise and I have discussed and noticed the fact that EVERY PUA who claims to “denounce Roissy’s beliefs” and/or even call him a “bottom feeder who is a nobody”……
…..ALL seem to enjoy posting at HIS site (and even making positive comments) and ALSO seem to ALL post at “The Spearhead” which is also a blog that prouds and openly promotes Misogyny and the MRA’s that you ALL just happen to claim to “want no part of”
Do you NOT see how this makes PUAs look flat out dishonest about their beliefs and also suspicious about their motives?
This is a pattern anyone who pays attention would notice.
What would you guys think if me and/or Denise were found to be “fans” at notorious man-hating Misandry blogs??? If we were CONTRIBUTING there? If we were commentibg in agreement there?
Are you telling me that you would NOT doubt our honesty and/or intentions to “help men” if we were guilty of supporting Misandry/Militant Feminism sites that applaud harming men?
Would you or would you NOT go so far as to call us “dishonest bloggers” if that WERE the case??
That’s why we are both having a very difficult time NOT condemning ALL PUA’s. Because there seems to be an obvious and disturbing correlation between PUAs and MRAs in several different ways.
(I am truly attempting to explain WHY denise and I are both starting to think that the evidence is MUCH too hard to deny…..and proves the OPPOSITE of the claims you, Obsidian, Savoy, and other PUA’s are making??)
“Thanks to all who taught me something,”
__
Same here! You are alright there Denise.
Whether we agree or disagree, we learn something from eachother.
*This blog post has taken on a life all it’s own.
BTW – Roissy hasn’t posted for nearly two weeks now???
maybe he has finally been arrested and is prison, where he belongs.
one can only hope.
Uh Huh-
You’re right the post IS taking on a life of its own and I’m thinking I should just provide a “Please post Q & A here to Denise, myself, or us both” just to make things less confusing.
Both Denise and I are receiving many similar questions to us individually or both at the same time on various blogs and also in comments sections (like here). We are both having probs with having to spend all day answering the same redundant questions because they are either posted various places…..or are being sent to us individually by email as well (and sometimes from the asker, too).
I’m glad you said something because I’ve had to answer a lot more from cell phone than I’d like too!
Thanks for the reminder!
LR –
You and I view roissy’s site in a different perspective. Further, you think all men read roissy in ONE particular perspective. That is – we are all in 100% agreement with him regardless of subject matter. We all love to abuse women and you project whatever ill-will you have with roissy towards everybody else. At least – that’s what it seems like.
People like his site because he’s a talented writer, he writes about controversial stuff, he goes over the top (as do you), and a bit sensationalist….. anyway, the point is not everybody takes every word he writes as the written gospel. I view it more for entertainment, similar to a movie that highlights the humor in a woman beating a man up. Do people AGREE with beating each other senseless? I hope not. But its still presented in a palatable fashion. (I’m aware you are completely averse to his writing now – so i don’t expect you to understand).
How is the the-spearhead misogynistic? (open ended question; I really would like your input on how it is – what topics make you think it is?)
As to your comment about me doubting your honesty – You made sure I would do that by attacking me just by relaying a post to Denise. But, to be more fair, I’m perfectly fine with people as long as they’re fair, since that is what I’m about. Perhaps you ARE fair, perhaps not, but I can’t tell, since you really are quick to spout off long winded posts about how much you hate roissy and everything near in relation. If somebody even hints towards agreement w/ anything he says, DEVIL! I don’t think in such extremes.
I don’t understand your comment about all PUAs being evil assholes etc etc. I don’t think all feminists are evil bad women. I know a few personally – some I can relate to, some I can’t. I’ve gotten into a few spats before as well with long time friends, but we squash it and agree to disagree. Like I said, I don’t like to think in such extremes and lump a group of people into one nifty little category just cuz. (I do generalize at times, we all do, but I still allow for individual judgment before “attacking”)
And I think Roissy is going to be taking another “leave of absence” that is supposed to be “mysterious”…….but isn’t.
He is really non-confrontational in the way of addressing a person WITHOUT his anonymous cloak and without his anonymous “posse” of commenters and fans.
Roissy is a coward at heart much like all truly abusive people. That is why male abusers usually pick on emotionally unstable (and physically smaller) females……
….And why female abusers usually pick weaker and smaller (children most often) to abuse.
LR Psych 101: All abusers of either gender have the “school yard bully” syndrome! They pick on whomever is smaller and weaker and ONLY confront an ‘equal’ with a posse (or weapon) to back them.
This is a well known fact about abusers of BOTH gender. The causes of abusive behavior may be differing in nature…..but the end result is the same:
COWARD + Bully = Violent Abuser
I personally have a problem wtih you supporting r’s messages on his blog and wanting to buy him a drink.
You’re an instructor at LS, which says it respects women.
Do you also wish you could have bought a drink for Ted Bundy?
There is nothing entertaining about a man who tells men that “Hitting Women Turns them On”, “Suffrage is the worst thing to happen to the US”, and “cum in her mouth and then hold it shut so she has to swallow it.”
Those three statements and others he has made – and he has said he is NOT kidding – more than canel out anything”interesting” about him.
Hitler was not a half-bad painter, but guess where most of his paintings are? Filed away in a vault out of respect for the genocide he committted.
“Thanks for the reminder!”
Welcome.
Mr M–
The only problem with your accusation that I “want to hate everyone just bc they know/read Roissy.”
That’s not the case. I could easily find and post the same info about ALL of the PUA’s and all the people who post there….(Ask Chuck Ross, he will tell you what I mean) but I don’t.
Know why? I don’t “automatically” clump you in with Roissy. Do I call you all rapists and abusers like I do him? No. I have allowed and encouraged debate here from BOTH sides.
Furthermore, if its “all about Roissy revenge” to me, then does Denise seem to have the EXACT same (Psychological) opinion of Roissy (meaning bc she and I had no knowledge of each other until weeks ago)??
Why would Denise have already been working offer men an alternative to Game? Not to “smite Roissy”. She knew nothing of him or me and had already made that determination by her professional opinion alone.
Furthermore, the only point I am trying to make about OTHER PUA’s in the Community is this:
1. It does not look good that you all have direct affiliations to notoriously Misogynistic Groups/Blogs
2. It does not look good that even when I offered an example of Behavioral Conditioning and explained how Game was misusing those Psych Principles……not a single PUA was willing to even CONSIDER and debate that subject at ALL. That’s suspicious because I asked a simple, Psych-based question and the men using/teaching game and they are either genuinely uneducated in basic Psych….or ignore the question altogether? How can they be giving “psych related” game advice without even knowing they are misusing it and where it came from (or whom if you like).
3. Every PUA used phrases like “win, dominate, control, upperhand, get a handle on, be one step ahead” etc. Those are all phrases commonly used in Cults and Hate Groups to describe brainwashing, mental abuse, and control over another person.
Those are things that are an issue to me, personally and why I’m addressing ALL PUA’s. Roissy is just one man in the bunch. While I do think he’s a criminal and a sexual abuser……I do NOT want to think that any PUA would go to his extremes.
I don’t think MOST are even likely to physically abusive. However, I DO believe that PUA’s are willfully brainwashing and mentally abusing the women they are “Gaming”.
I am in no way of accusing any of you of actual “crimes” (like R) but I AM accusing you of being intentionally “ignorant” of what is at the very core of what you are doing/teaching to other men.
There are a lot of loose cannons out there and for every 10 men who DON’T intentionally abuse women with Game, there’s 2 who do. If you are going to TEACH something as delicate as “fiddling with the human mind”…..you should realize that you have a responsibility to recognize what it COULD be used for and DENOUNCE it.
When noted PUA’s are seen contributing and commenting at various Misogynistic, Abusive, or Anti-Feminism sites…..you need to realize that it does NOT look good, and more importantly could make an aspiring PUA think that Misogyny and Abuse of women is synonymous with “PUAs”??
Is that what you are going for? Because you all seem very dismissive about your obvious ties to hate- groups against women and yet are still “in bed with them”, so to speak.
I don’t believe that you REALLY think Denise or myself are bitter man-haters or Revenge Feminists who would “feign a cause” and do all this JUST to smite Roissy.
Come on, be serious.
Denise said: “Hitler was not a half-bad painter, but guess where most of his paintings are? Filed away in a vault out of respect for the genocide he committted.”
Wow. That was a good one. (Is this because of our earlier convo, lol?)
“There is nothing entertaining about a man who tells men that “Hitting Women Turns them On””
Meanwhile hundreds of millions of women gleefully cheered the brutal sexual mutilation of a man by his wife little more than a decade ago. A murderous attack with a golf club was recently celebrated by countless female journalists. All sorts of excuses are made for female abusers of all stripes.
Oprah Winfrey, apparently an advocate for rape victims, presents guests on her television show whose only claim to fame is rooting young boys. These rapists see standing ovations from thousands of women after which the whole package is beamed to hundreds of millions of women for their entertainment.
In my country a high circulation womens magazine paid travel and living costs for a Californian woman who came here to consumate the internet grooming of a fourteen year old boy. About ten percent of the women of my country sponsored this child sex tourist and read about it as a cutesy romance under titles such as “Schoolboy Lover”.
Women see the abuse of any male by a woman, even boys, as entertainment.
And yet here you are complaining about something on an relatively insignificant web site.
Women actually get turned on by other women abusing men and even boys.
LR – (hitler’s paintings) not consciously, but maybe subconsciously!
And by the way, the experience I had as a child apparently wasn’t a rape because I was supposed to enjoy it. Ask anyone – particularly women.
I’m *trying* to limit my time here so I can finish something, but this seems too important so I will choose to respond to this:
Gwallan:
“Meanwhile hundreds of millions of women gleefully cheered the brutal sexual mutilation of a man by his wife little more than a decade ago. A murderous attack with a golf club was recently celebrated by countless female journalists. All sorts of excuses are made for female abusers of all stripes.”
Let’s be rational and recognize the following:
1. Not every woman cheered about john bobbit.
2. You make it sound like Lorena’s assault upon him is the beginning of the story and you know it is not. Be intellectually honest and acknoweldge that it was an abusive relationship. I am not saying that justifies what she did; it doesn’t. I think all humans should avoid harming each other as much as possible.
3. Do you really think it is only female abusers for whom excuses are made? I think there is a long history of abusers of all kinds having excuses made for them and this usually correlates to who has the social and political privilege in the current culture. That is why the evil Roissy doesn’t want women to have the right to vote.
4. RE: Elin and Tiger: AGAIN – you make it sound like this is the beginning of the story. Tiger was just minding his own business walking along, guilty of nothing and Elin, that bitch, just snapped and visciously attacked him for no reason.
This is my perspective on Elin’s attack on Tiger: I don’t have a problem with it. And it’s not because she is a woman and he is man. It’s because he had unprotected sex with more than ten other women and exposed her (and her infant, if she is breastfeeding) to AIDs, which kills, as well as other STDs and Hepatitis C, which also can kill.
If a total stranger came up to me and injected me with a dirty needle that has been in more than 10 other random people, I am sure I would havce an urge to hit them with something. Wouldn’t you?
If someone who claimed to love me and who vowed to be faithful to me stuck me with said needle, the sense of betrayal, rage, and sorrow would be incredulous and overwhelming.
That is what Tiger did. HE is the one who did an incredibly violent thing FIRST. Does that make her response right? No. but it does make it underrstandable, I think.
And, I do not see female journalists celebrating this. To whom do you refer exactly?
Oprah Winfrey: I’m not at all familiar with this. Can you tell us more?
In my country: the internet grooming of a fourteen year old boy. I agree with you; this is terrible.
So do you see that we are in agreement about several things? Are you also outraged by Roissy’s post “creepy children: and his vulgar statemetn that a 14 year old girl is ripened to womanhood?
“Women see the abuse of any male by a woman, even boys, as entertainment.:
Re: your statement above: do you really believe this is true of ALL women? It is not true. I don’t know any woman for whom that is true.
Is there a reason why you believe this to be true? Have you always believed this to be true? Can you please consider the possibility that your statement is NOT true for all women?
“And yet here you are complaining about something on an relatively insignificant web site.”
What makes r’s website any less significant than the website you mention above on which the woman victimized the 14-year old boy? We do not consider r’s site to be insignificant given what he says and given his disturbingly large and loyal following.
Guess what? The 19 men who flew the planes on 9/11 were insignificant on 9/10.
The “underwear bomber” was insignificant on 12/24/09.
The Unabomber was insignificant until his own family suspected him of being not so insignificant.
As citizens, we have a responsibility to call people on this violence, and that is what we’re choosing to do.
I am surprised that someone who abhors violence as much as you do is not in agreement with us.
“Women actually get turned on by other women abusing men and even boys.”
Come on. Really? Again – you do realize that you’re not using your critical reasoning skills here, don’t you?
I get it that you’ve been hurt by a woman or women. That’s terrible. Nobody should be hurt. But do you truly believe that the statements you are making about “women” are true for ALL women?
I hope not.
Can we please agree that there are good men and women in the world and that ABUSE is the problem, not any one gender?
Gwallen said: “Women actually get turned on by other women abusing men and even boys.”
*Oh you are going to eat those words Gwallen*
First of all, can you please provide the statistics and source to back up your statement?
(Ill let the flagrant exaggerating on the “hundreds of millions” type imaginary stats.)
I have publicly and openly denounced Oprah as the Racist and Misandrist that she clearly is. I will tell you honestly that I used to be a part of a well-known political group (whom shall remain nameless for their sake, lol) and have PUBLICLY SPOKEN against Oprah and her Corporation.
I also do not watch that program and will NOT watch Lifetime, “WE” (womens entertainment), Oxygen, and other similar Channels at ALL because I find them to be depraved and shameful. Those channels are notorious for having shows that “romaticize” female murderers and even child- murdering women.
I find it disgusting and have even written the companies individually and tolkd them as much in no unsimple terms. I do not even allow a “hate” channel/program like those to be watched in our home (and certainly by our children).
I think that the SMALL group of women who “celebrate” those things and romanticize them ARE criminals and ARE hate groups.
I absolutely have proven in my life in words and action how against those things I am (and other things like unjust spousal support, cheating, gold digging, and emasculation.)
Furthermore, Denise has said several times and also demonstrated in her blog that she “holds men and women to exactly the same standards”.
Does that sound like making “excuses” for the Revenge Feminists to you?
Absolutely not.
(For the record, I even emailed blogger “Biting Beaver” once and dragged her over the coals (for various things including but not limited to) intentionally making victims out of women, making light of REAL victims by falsifying claims, and making me ashamed to be a woman.).
I KNOW without question that I have been just as hard on Revenge Feminists and Man-Abusers as I am against Misogyny and PUAs.
Do not ask a question if you are unsure of the answer.
Gwallan:
If you say you were raped, I believe you; and I would never tell you that you were supposed to enjoy it.
Whoever has said that to you is not a healthy or safe person to even be near.
I’m sure you can find healthy and safe support to help you deal with what was done to you. Did you look at any of the sites I posted the other day for you?
I don’t know what country you’re in, but there are many resources worldwide that I’m sure you call for no cost other than the cost of the phone number is there is nothing physically near you.
Rape is a horrible experience that no human should have to endure. It is traumatizing in every way, regardless of the gender of the rapist or the victim.
I’m really sad that you endured that.
Denise
“Certainly NOT by our children” I meant….sorry…I don’t think there’s an edit feature on the Blackberry WordPress App, goddammit!!!!
gwallan:
here is a supportive blog:
http://www.realsexedfacts.com/what-to-do-if-youve-been-raped-and-prevention-tips.html
Another resource for rape survivors AND something that is poignant in terms of our ongoing discussion about PUAs:
http://www.realsexedfacts.com/what-to-do-if-youve-been-raped-and-prevention-tips.html
Excerpted from the above: (comments in parentheses are mine).
Women are taught/conditioned to be passive, submissive and indirect. (which is how MRAs and evilR want to keep it).
This behavior can lead to misunderstandings between men and women and lead to sexual aggression. This does not mean, however, that women are to blame for date rape, simply that our culture socializes women in such a way that both talking about sex and knowing and setting their boundaries can often be difficult. (evilR has zero respect for women’s boundaries, so he likes this socializiation).
It is important to stay in touch with your feelings and values. (Yet PUA methods are designed to get women to ignore their feelings and values).
You have a right to be unsure of your feelings; however, be aware that your uncertainty may make it difficult to communicate clearly to your date. (especially is he is gaming you which is the same as disregarding your feelings and values and caring only about his goals to close).
Act on your own comfort level. It’s okay to say you need more time or that you don’t want to have sex. (Yet PUA teaches LMR and continuing escalation as does evilR).
Believe in your right to express your feelings and learn how to do so assertively. (Yet PUA teaches how to get past this as well and evilR preaches to just keep trying and wear her down. Also known as date rape).
Know that you have a right to set sexual limits and nobody has a right to force you to do something you don’t want to do. (That means YOU, Evil Roissy and your sick followers! – that means you DO NOT have a right to cum in her mouth and hold it closed so she has to swallow it. And, that means that LMR is sexually aggressive and coercive and can easily define you as a rapist).
Be aware of attitudes you hold that may prevent you from self-expressions, such as “nice girls don’t get angry,” or “nice girls protect other’s feelings.” (this is how evilR wants women to be – or as one MRA said on a blog recently – “women need to be put in their place – on their knees where they worship cock”.) (Nice….god I *wish* I could date that man……)
Be aware of specific situations in which you do not feel relaxed or in control. Trust your gut-level feelings. (PUA teaches men to circumvent women’s gut feelings, to distract them from their gut feelings, and to manipulate the woman’s feelings all in service of the PUA getting laid. This is a seriously unethical practice).
Remember that women can coerce men into having sex too, and be careful that you do not put a partner in the position of feeling that they have to have sex. (Amen).
Respect your partner’s boundaries too! (PUA teaches men to disrespect women’s boundaries and escalate as much as they can).
If you have been sexually assaulted, it is important that you talk with someone who can support you in your recovery. (So important).
There are many resources both on-campus and off-campus to help you.
For men:
If you are unsure about what a woman wants, ask her. (Whycan’t PUA just teach this?)
Communicating about mutual expectations and unclear messages is an effective way of eliminating confusion. (YES. ditto).
Men are often pressured to be aggressive, forceful and to “score.” This can be counterproductive in personal interactions with others and can lead to sexual aggression. (THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SAYING!!!!)
It is NEVER okay to force yourself on a woman, even if you think she’s been teasing you or leading you on, even if you have heard a rumor that women say “no” but mean “yes,” and even if you think your friends expect you to “score.” (DITTO!!!!)
Be aware of attitudes you hold that may foster aggression in relationships, such as:
“I’m less of a man if I don’t score.”
“What will my friends think if I don’t score?”
“Women expect men to take the sexual lead.”
“Her lips say “no,” but her eyes say “yes.”
“Men who are sensitive are wimps.”
“She wouldn’t have come up to my room if she didn’t want to have sex.”
“I bought her an expensive dinner, she owes me.”
(DITTO to the infinite power).
Whenever you use force to have sex, or have sex with someone who isn’t able to consent (e.g. someone who’s drunk or asleep), you are committing a crime called rape, even if you know the woman or have had sex with her before. Not only could you face criminal charges, but your academic career could also be at risk because sexual assault is against the UCLA Student Code of Conduct. (DITTO)
Remember that women are not the only survivors of date rape. Although it is uncommon for a woman to sexually assault a man, it does happen. (Yes. And all rape is bad).
You also have the right to say “no,” and to set limits regarding sexual experience. If you have been sexually assaulted, it is important that you talk to someone who can support you in recovering from this traumatic experience. (absolutely).
Men who have been raped, either by a date or a stranger, often feel too ashamed to tell anyone, but there are people and services available that can help you to cope. (Yes there are. Seek them out if you need them).
It is possible to heal.
Oh, and to EVERYONE:
My apologies for the cell phone posting and slower response.
I have a RAGING fever and flu for likle 3 days now and I feel like straight up ass.
And of course, my sister is having major spine-replacment surgery (yes, its what it sounds like…they are removing a large portion of her spine and replacing it with a titanium one) at 5 am this morning!
I told her “Wouldn’t it be awesome if your back is also ROBOTIC and you can do really cool things?!”
Anyway….because of that, I am now solely responsible for all the income in our 5 bedroom home….and also all the childcare of MY son, and my sister’s 4 children, too!!! Yup, all the claening, cooking, finances, child rearing, even nursing care for her for one- two months after that she’ll be rquired to stay in bed.
It gets worse, lol…..
I ALSO have the Court Date tomorrow that I mentioned here back in early November after moving. I told all my readers that I’d discuss the “drunken, substance abusing, asshole neighbor” that I had to testify against.
I promised that I would tell you all about this asshole AFTER the Court Date because I did not want to in any way hinder their investigation or case against him.
They took all three separate events/charges for “abuse, harrassment, and disorderly conduct” against me and our children and are clumping them all into one court hearing.
The good thing is that my sister’s bf ALSO happened to witness/hear all three separate events!!! So he is testifying as well tomorrow.
This man is dangerous in every way to women, children, and I dare say other men.
Anyway, I will happily share the details of the “big hearing” against that ass-clown after tomorrow!!!
As you can see…..I’ve had a long fucking week and I suspect there is still more to come, lol! Whatever, I’m sooo ready for anything like always.
So, I hope for good luck on…..errr….ALL those things (especially me being sick because I NEVER get sick and of ALL TIMES it has to be this week!
Otherwise I’d be totally cool with all the other things going on.
Sometimes I wonder if the Gods just roll the dice and see who they’re going to fuck with that day, lmao…..
Anyway….bear with me
Denise, Obsidian has re-posted his blog about you over at the MRA blog THE SPEARHEAD.
Here it is;
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/01/05/an-open-letter-to-denise-romano-ma-edm/
Denise Romano, why is MA, EDM part of your name. I understand these are your degrees but putting them in your name is very idiotic and funny LOL.
Oh jesus…I just re read that for clarity and even I don’t understand it. Haaa hahaha….
I am not the defendant in the harassment charges….I am the witness and plaintiff and my sister’s boyfriend is the OTHER witness for the plaintiff (me and “the state”) because it is technically the Police Department themselves who are actually pressing charges. I was satisfied with a “warning” after the first incident.
However, the asshole neighbor then proceeded to piss the cops off by refusing to answer his door and also screaming drunkenly: “Fuck You cops! You don’t have a warrant! You don’t have any evidence!”
Needless to say that those things have nothing to do with the Police knocking at your door just to verbally “warn” you. So the asshole really did it to himself.
It was hilarious (the drunken screaming about evidence) but pissed me off as well.
The cops came BACK to my door after that happened and proceeded to tell me that “Since this guy pissed us off, now we are just going to run his tags and send him citations (and charges) in the mail.”
He then did the EXACT same thing the other two times (when the Police came out) in ONE MONTH that he did all this!
Then they ALSO discovered that asshole has a PENDING DUI/Drug Possession/Drug Distribution…..and “leaving the scene of an accident”.
This dude is straight up fucked now because this is a very small town. You cannot comitt and be charged with a total of 4 separate and serious crimes in less than 3 months and NOT expect the cops to have a vendetta against you.
(I daresay publicly that I live in a nice town with no crime, but it is common knowledge around here that a few of the Cops are very very dirty. Its one cop in particular with 2 alleged “henchmen” in lower positions. I shan’t say anything else about it, but these guys do things their own way.)
There is no doubt that the hearing will be interesting between me being sick with a high fever and trying not to black out……and a bunch of dirty cops and a woman judge (which is the worst in general)! I seriously think I should base an awful tv show on the weird drama in small “nicer class” areas.
But any show I was behind would probably be really offensive and be taken off the air in weeks.
Anyhow….just wanted to clarify before there’s some rumor going around that someone saw me taken to the courthouse in a murder suit. Or was a Professional Con Artist (which would be way cooler. I look terrible in orange.)
Are you actually asking a question out of curiosity or because this is how you express passive aggression?
Since I don’t know, I’ll answer as though either could be true.
1. It is customary to signify your grad degrees and/or certifications in my field.
2. It must be attributable to an obscure and dishonestly manipulated theory found in evolutionary psychology that would make any real scientist beg to hear more about Intelligent Design.
yes, I’m aware of the spearhead obsidian post.
Major deadlines this week.
I am looking forward to responding fully, but I owe Clarence a response first, to which I am also looking forward.
LR – good luck tomorrow, good luck to your sister, and feel better.
Denise
Denise said: ” – or as one MRA said on a blog recently – “women need to be put in their place – on their knees where they worship cock”.) (Nice….god I *wish* I could date that man……)”
I to, wish I could date that man, denise. Its hard to even keep my panties on when I hear a real man like that speak..
*haaaa hahaha I really and truly did laugh uproariously like a child at that remark! I realize I should be focusing on the important and serious issues she’s discussing, but I cannot allow a “good one” like THAT to slide by un- commentated!!!)
Denise, check out THIS comment over at the SPEARHEAD, on the particular blog about you;
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/01/05/an-open-letter-to-denise-romano-ma-edm/#comment-18704
Speechless.
And also because Denise would get REALLY tired from repeatedly telling the many shrieking misogynists what her credentials are…..in the form of irrational questions, of course. Here’s an example those shrieking questions/accusations:
“What credentials do YOU have, bitch? Were your credentials handed to you like ALL women who have degrees? Don’t you realize that PUA’s know what you want far BETTER than you do because they are magical sky fairies with magical powers to read the minds of women? Don’t you know that women ALL want to be a sexual and emotional slave to her partner?. Errr….I mean if women HAD brains, that is….”
Maybe that’s why.
(Hahahhaa okay fine maybe I embellished a bit.)
yes, i saw that.
truly disturbing.
And did you notice how all the men on that blog who keep trying to convince us that they respect women did NOT rebuke him for that comment?
If someone did, I missed it — and I would love to be wrong about my statement above.
Like I said, it takes a village.
This is why the work of Jackson Katz is so excellent. He doesn’t say to men, “You’re all bad bc of your Y chromosomes.”
No, for all of humanity, he says, “As men, as people, we have responsibilities when we are bystanders to violence to speak out against it and try to stop it.”
He is a human talking about violence against other humans.
Actually, LR, your embellished commentary is not far off from some of that hate mail I’ve gotten.
I wrote a little poem for roissy:
there once was an ass we’ll call roissy
he thought men should own their own pussies
so he went to the surgeon
became a new virgin
and now he’s his own little hussy
Well, Denise….my embellished commentary is based on what I have seen of those men with my own eyes as well.
These guys operate on lawyer tactics like veiling a condemning statement in the form of a question. That’s usually when the opposing counsel jumps in and says “Oh come on, I object. Badgering the witness, your honor.”
Lol these guys aren’t as slick as they think.
And I like the poem….my fever makes things funnier, though
Denise, every time someone questions you on something it doesn’t mean they are being critical or using some “discredited evolutionary psychology theory”. Also, just so you girls know I am no fan of Roissy. I have spoken out against his “Chris Brown is Alpha” post on many sites but I still love the game. I don’t think its manipulative or greasy or silly or misogynistic. What we learn through PUA literature, I have seen all of my “natural” friends do that too. And of course, you will always men who will manipulate women, abuse them, play games with them but then there are women who do the same too.
I was just curious about your name because I deal with a lot of professionals too, but I haven’t seen them put their degrees like that in their names. So calm down.
Denise
You’re an instructor at LS, which says it respects women.
What’s LS?
I am in no way of accusing any of you of actual “crimes” (like R) but I AM accusing you of being intentionally “ignorant” of what is at the very core of what you are doing/teaching to other men.
Do you have me confused with someone else? Seems both of you do.
LR –
Also – could you please explain how spearhead is a terribly misogynistic website? I’m asking candidly – I’d like to know why you think this is so.
LR EDIT: MR. M, I am NOT trying to be dismissive, but honestly…..Denise offered just a few examples…..and I do read there sometimes and have even spoken to Welmer personally (via email). They make NO BONES about their Misogyny. Anytime I have directly asked any of them about this, I was basically told that “These men are tired of being mistreated by women” and therefore anything hateful, violent, and misogynistic they post is considered nothing more than a “previous victim venting”.
Unfortunately, that would mean that nearly every poster there and every moderator/editor is ALSO a “previous victim of women” because they ALL use the same blatant hate speech about women.
And did you notice how all the men on that blog who keep trying to convince us that they respect women did NOT rebuke him for that comment?
If someone did, I missed it — and I would love to be wrong about my statement above.
Like I said, it takes a village.
And comments like this go to explain why *I* think LR and Denise lump all the PUA/MRA people all up into “bad evil men.”
You want people to chastise every anonymous poster on the internet for every comment made not in PC terms? I’ll wager feministing has a few male-hate slanted comments on their site. Should they police that, too?
Ms Romano,
You claim to have “successfully” counselled male victims. Ask yourself why it might be that a male victim of sexual abuse would find it impossible to intersect with what Katz is pushing with your support.
It’s a very, very simple answer.
Now this…
For Gwallan and anyone else who will find this info useful:
resources for male survivors of abuse:
http://www.gmdvp.org – Gay Men’s DV Project
etc
Here you have made about the worst mistake you could make with a male victim. In fact it is seriously offensive. Do you know why?
Question for you: if there was a woman with a blog and she wrote the very same things about men and boys that roissy writes about women and girls, would she be a misandrist?
Would she be inciting violence against men and boys?
Would she be inciting pedophilia?
Would you want her in prison?
YES, YES, YES, and YES.
What do you mean “if”?
You are very presumptuous. I would suggest you look up Butterfly Kisses. I reported this paedophile web site to Interpol and the FBI some six years ago. They did nothing. The site went underground after it was outed by an Australian mens rights activist about two years ago.
Furthermore I have been ridiculed, attacked, hated for the crime of speaking out as a male victim. By women as well as men AND the women are far worse. I have been banned by feminist websites after incredible expressions of hatred including accusations that I am a paedophile hiding my criminality under a veneer of advocacy. For admitting to being a victim!
OK, the post I have just made should have preceded the previous one. They should be viewed in that context.
When I originally tried to post this it was being “discarded”. I presume it was because of the links contained. Strangely they worked fine when posted by Ms Romano. I believed at the time that I had been banned.
I will have more later but at this time I will point out your extraordinary arrogance in thinking you can lecture a male victim about the attitudes he will encounter in our communities. You are not on the receiving end.
LR EDIT: Do you mean when you “originally posted” this HERE? I have never EVER moderated one of your comments and I just double checked there are no comments sitting in moderation OR the trash can that are not actual SPAM (trackbacks from SPAM mostly).
The ONLY person who has EVER been moderated, edited, or deleted here is UgSlayer and that is because he literally copies and pastes the EXACT SAME “drive by” insult over and over and over on all my posts (even if it doesn’t make sense) and also copies and pastes the same sentence repeatedly in the comments section.
I told him that he CAN just “insult” if he wants to and that is fine with me, but he at least needs to post a DIFFERENT insult each time.
I absolutely without question have not and will not moderate or delete any of your comments (or anyone else’s) unless they are actual SPAM. I don’t even consider “trollery” because I think a lot of bloggers call anyone a “troll” who is against them and maybe makes them look bad.
m-
is this not you? http://www.lovesystems.com/media/pdf/ManBehindMrM.pdf
the comment we are talking about on spearhead is not just un-PC – it’s extremely violent.
“too late for romance January 5, 2010 at 18:41
Dude they can say whatever they want regardless of whether it is nonsensical or rational.
The bottom line is that the only reason they are able to speak freely and not, say, get raped every hour of every day, is because they are protected by men they do not know who will ultimately kill for their safety.
This situation, much like the US federal government’s insane monetary, fiscal, foreign, and domestic policies, will work itself out one way or another. It will either end with women back in their traditional and, in my opinion, biologically determined roles through peaceful means or violent means. Namely as in men will either be incentivized or disincentivized to protect women who are not kin to them or fucking them. It’s just that simple.
Frankly at this point I don’t give a shit which one happens so long as I get mine. I could go either way and I am not kidding.”
If someone wrote this but with genders reversed or about any group of people on my blog, I would call them on it for what it is = HATE VIOLENCE.
Why do we think spearhead is misogynistic? Are you kidding?
1. women are referred to as “bitches”
2. comments like the above are not rare and go unchallenged.
3. there are posts making blanket statements about ALL women that are factually untrue but which serve an MRA-woman-hating sensitibility
too busy to go on. just taking a quick break from deadline.
Gw-
i sent you a link to support resources. no, i do not know what is offensive about that.
there are a range of resources that can be helpful. I can guess what it might be, but you seem to be very sensitive and in alot of pain, and I’m afraid even my guess will offend you.
My question to you is do you believe I intended to offend you?
Denise
gwallan,
i want to understand you but i’m not following you. Which community are you talking about when you say “this community”?
I don’t know where you live, but I can tell you that in at least in the places I’ve lived in the US – in every state – there are supportive free resources for men who have been raped or otherwise victimized.
If it has been difficult for you to find support, I can imagine that is horrible. It sounds like you’re saying you’ve been on the receiving end of some insensitivity toward what happened to you and that is terrible.
If you want to say what kind of support you’re looking for, I’d be happy to research it and try to find it for you.
But generally there are anonymous crisis and counseling hotlines, individual therapists, groups just for men or groups for men and women, and online support groups – depending on what would meet your needs best, which only you know.
I hope you find whatever support you need whether you find it on your own or with the help of someone else.
It was not my intention to offend you, and I would like to know what offended you.
I also really do not understand what about Jackson Katz would bother someone who has been raped. He is anti-rape. He is all about teaching others who are bystanders to behaviors that lead to rape – to speak up and oppose those behaviors.
Denise
Gwallan -
does this help at all?
http://www.malesurvivor.org/Reversal_of_Fortune.pdf
d
This also looks very good (though I think i sent you this site already)
http://www.malesurvivor.org/myths.html
Denise -
Not me, sorry.
As for the comment, go and peruse some feministing comments. I found this one after a few minutes of perusing:
“I want to see Tucker Max get beaten up by women. That I’d PAY to see. Not his how-to-date rape movie-pat-myself-on-the-back-for-being-douchebag crap-flick.”
With 10 “likes” – out of 35 comments, only 2 scored higher. Thoughts? Maybe he “deserved” it? Didn’t see anybody challenge said threat of violence.
1. women are referred to as “bitches”
2. comments like the above are not rare and go unchallenged.
3. there are posts making blanket statements about ALL women that are factually untrue but which serve an MRA-woman-hating sensitibility
I have to ask then – do you criticize blogs where the roles are reversed?
LR EDIT: I can’t speak for Denise, but I think we BOTH stated that we do NOT find that behavior acceptable and do NOT support “Revenge Feminism” which covers any group of women looking to “punish” men for previous oppression.
I don’t think that particular comment about “beating up Tucker Max” is quite the same as naming “George Sodini as a hero” who massacred and killed innocent women (and pregnant women), but YES it is violent and offensive just the same.
Those women (IMO) are misusing Sigmund Freud’s findings about “childhood trauma” and “abuse” to excuse their behavior and not be responsible for their actions in this life. They are teaching women to be born into “victimhood” and to literally lie in wait to be oppressed so that they can lash out at whatever man they can find.
That IS what I’d call “man-hate” and also “hate-speech”. I don’t understand why it seems that you don’t HEAR anything we are saying to you because of some of the questions you are asking.
When, Mr. M….have you EVER seen or heard me promote or support or comment at a “Militant Feminism” or “Revenge Feminism” site? Never. That’s when. I would NEVER want anyone to mistakenly think I support Women seeking revenge on Men as a gender. I do NOT support it and I LIKE men. I do NOT however like violent and abusive men.
I WILL speak against those men. I WILL shame them. They are very dangerous to everyone including other women, children, and men.
Denise, LR,
Roissy’s wrinting leeds to polarization. I think people quickly hate or love what he has to say (person A and B).
Blogs are about getting attention and/or having something to share.
Polarization requires opposed opinions, they feed it.
Validating Roissy with posts and comments is oil on the fire.
Leave Roissy’s blog to the Yeah and Amen sayers who go out of their way to emphasize their views with stacking extremity and it will crumble.
I did not originally think LR to be the same person as Roissy. But they keep validating eachother, I now get sceptical.
LR EDIT: I really don’t see how my posts are similar in any way. I have never posted Anti-Male anything….have never incited violence or sexual abuse against men, and have openly condemned women and Feminist who act that way and seek revenge/reparations through Alimony and Gold Digging (just for example).
I really have no idea WHY you’d make such a statement and I cannot honestly imagine that you believe what you are saying.
It seems a lot of people don’t realize what a coward Roissy is. It’s not “weird” that he magically stops posting when people are “against him” or have confronted him. He hides from confrontation, doesn’t address people who just have a question, and runs when the going gets tough. He’s not a real threat as a “lasting force” however he IS a threat to the common women and children on our streets. He is a violent rapist and offender and will likely be imprisoned for no less than 10 years when he finally goes.
You deranged vindictive skank. Get some fucking help. Roissy published info that was PUBLIC on your MYSPACE page. You did no such thing. He never published your name or address on his site.
It’s pretty obvious you’re Nazi German anti-Semitic white trash from Pennsylvania. Not that PA is a bad state, I’m from there too. I’m actually near you. Very near you. And I got Roissy’s back. He bangs hotter girls than you every day. He doesn’t care that you’re into thugs and drunks rather than him. You’re OLD. As you approach and pass your sell-by date, you conpensate by bashing a guy for being 40. Well you’re in your 30′s and have many fewer options than a 40 year old, successful, tall, smart white man in DC. Especially with your bastard son holding you back.
You’re a horrible mother, spending so much of your time trying to fuck strangers over. i bet Roissy laughs every day at your patheticness and bitterness. You are garden variety white trash whorish stock, with a slightly higher IQ than most and a much larger array of mental illness.
For Gwallen and the rest of you:
I have my “spam” filters set on the Word Press minimum. Meaning while “SPAM filtering” is enabled to trap actual SPAM and ADS….I have NOT added to the “SPAM filter” to get it to moderate anything other than what it already does itself. WordPress seems to pick up anything that contains a link of ANY KIND. There is no way for me to stop WordPress from doing that.
I just try to get the comments out of moderation as soon as I possibly can so that no one thinks I am intentionally moderating you.
JEFF-
You are clearly a very disturbed individual.
“You deranged vindictive skank. Get some fucking help. Roissy published info that was PUBLIC on your MYSPACE page. You did no such thing. He never published your name or address on his site.”
Really? Can you please show me on my myspace page WHERE I ever said that I was a Porno Star? It doesn’t. Where I said I was a druggie? It doesn’t. Where I alluded to being promiscuous? Nowhere. Where I spoke about my career as a prostitute? I didn’t.
Because nearly ALL of what Roissy posted about me was lies and slander. I posted NOTHING like that.
Furthermore, could you also tell me how a mother having family pics on her myspace page is similar to stealing a 5 year old child’s photo and posting it on an X-Rated, Sex-Based, Graphic Language & Violence inclusive website like Roissys?
Are you aware that I could have Roissy prosecuted and likely imprisoned merely for posting my son’s photo there even if he DID have express permission from me or any other parent? Are you aware that the laws protecting children/minors from sexual abuse supersede 1st Amendment rights and also Copyright Laws?
No adult man or woman is allowed to post a photo on an OBVIOUSLY X-Rated site that incites pornography, violence, and sexual abuse. It is considered at the LEAST “Willful Negligence of a Minor Child” and is considered at the WORST “Attempted Child Pornography”.
He’s very lucky that this is all I did to him. There were plenty of lawyers willing to take THAT case.
“It’s pretty obvious you’re Nazi German anti-Semitic white trash from Pennsylvania. Not that PA is a bad state, I’m from there too. I’m actually near you. Very near you. And I got Roissy’s back. He bangs hotter girls than you every day. He doesn’t care that you’re into thugs and drunks rather than him. You’re OLD. As you approach and pass your sell-by date, you conpensate by bashing a guy for being 40. Well you’re in your 30’s and have many fewer options than a 40 year old, successful, tall, smart white man in DC. Especially with your bastard son holding you back.”
Thank you for the veiled threat: “I’m near you. Very near you. And I got Roissy’s back.” Oh, do you? Is this the moment where I make the “scared” face and put on a show for you??? I assure you, darling that I have dealt with men MUCH scarier than you and Roissy. None of them ever threatened me again. It is likely that you will not get a second chance, either. (PS: Everyone else! Here is a GREAT example of “hate speech” and an attempt to incite violence against me.)
Furthermore, I have no problems finding quality men. I have never dated a thug. I have never dated a biker. I have dated ONE man who had a “criminal record” and that was my son’s father (and his “criminal record” was for DUI and nothing else). I think it’s pretty clear that Roissy can NOT get laid, does NOT get more dates than me, and does not have any value whatsoever as a man. Who’s the one hating and perpetrating violence on women? He is. Who is the one who feels the need to debase and use women? He is. Those are clear indications that he has not been successful with women and/or has been abused by one.
I am sure that some single mothers DO have problems finding men. However, I have not yet run into that problem. I have never had a guy “run” upon finding out I had a kid. I have never had to “lower my standards” to get a date because of that, and most importantly I do not need nor enjoy manipulating and hurting men. Therefore, I am clearly MUCH better off than Roissy could ever dream of being. I’d say that my son has done far more to improve my life than anything else and I’m sad that men like you and Roissy are not likely to ever encounter that kind of love.
“You’re a horrible mother, spending so much of your time trying to fuck strangers over. i bet Roissy laughs every day at your patheticness and bitterness. You are garden variety white trash whorish stock, with a slightly higher IQ than most and a much larger array of mental illness.”
I have never sat around in my life…..just trying to fuck strangers over. I am a wonderful mother, a wonderful aunt, and I love every moment of being both. I also do not “suffer” from anything at all and especially not an “array” of anything. I have OCD. I suppose it CAN be debilitating for people, but it’s mostly their compulsions interfering with having a normal schedule. I don’t have any of the “compulsions” that relate to turning things on and off, patterns, numbers, etc.
And you may want to call my family and also tell THEM that we are apparently “White Trash”. Last I checked, my father is STILL a highly regarded Businessman and CEO and my mother is still an exalted leader in her Church. Considering we ALL have a “higher education” and VERY good social standing, then you’re interpretation of “White Trash” must be different than mine. Judging by your lacking intellect, I am grateful that you and I will never be on the same level to decide that.
Surely I’m reading this wrong.
I don’t believe you. I really don’t think you’d be saying the same thing if the genders were reversed. I’m having trouble believing that you’re saying this at all. Actually, I’m not even sure what you’re saying.
Understandable, sure. I’m glad you say that it doesn’t make her response right, because above you were saying that you didn’t have a problem with it, which sounded like you were condoning what she did. Which is your actual perspective? You think what she did was not right, nevertheless you don’t have a problem with it. I’m confused. Above, I was mentally applauding you and Lady Raine for speaking out against revenge-based feminism.
In trying to reach male survivors (particularly of female abusers) it’s probably a good idea to avoid saying anything that could be construed, or even misconstrued as defending female abuse towards a man. Even talking about the abuse being “understandable” may not be the greatest move. Trying to empathize with an abuser (in a non-condoning way) is an important subject, I think, but perhaps isn’t the right subject to write multiple paragraphs about to a male survivor. Poor gwallan is probably off triggering in a corner right now (sorry if I’m speaking for you, gwallan).
I would urge you to think about these things before attempting communication with male survivors in the future.
I think it’s often easier to empathize with people of our gender. Hey, I do it, too.
Hugh -
I don’t have the time now that I wish I had to reply to this, so please consider this a partial response:
“Actually, I’m not even sure what you’re saying.”
I think what I’m saying is that I have more than one feeling and thought about what Elin did.
“Understandable, sure. I’m glad you say that it doesn’t make her response right, because above you were saying that you didn’t have a problem with it, which sounded like you were condoning what she did.”
You’re right – my comments show a grey area about my thoughts and feelings aobut what she did. I guess this is similar to those who oppose the death penalty but then a case will come along and their thoughts and feelings will be “you know what? kill that criminal”. I have to admit I’ve found myself in that category more than once.
Which is your actual perspective? I do think all violence (except self-defense violence is not right, so I am far from applauding or cheering on what Elin did. At the same time, I also understand, and I hope others can understand that what Tiger did to Elin makes Elin a Survivor of his violence toward her and her children – which is a very significant point.
I have a thought on your comment below -
“In trying to reach male survivors (particularly of female abusers) it’s probably a good idea to avoid saying anything that could be construed, or even misconstrued as defending female abuse towards a man. Even talking about the abuse being “understandable” may not be the greatest move. Trying to empathize with an abuser (in a non-condoning way) is an important subject, I think, but perhaps isn’t the right subject to write multiple paragraphs about to a male survivor.”
I think most of us are probably survivors of violence. I am.
So, how then do we proceed? I will be empathic and sensitive to someone who is clearly pained, however, I will also challenge thinking that is not critical.
I think a huge part of the polarization I’ve observed on this topic is that there seem to be both men and women who believe that all women or all men, respectively, are evil based on their own experiences with the opposite gender.
Lady Raine and I have discussed that one of our shared goals is that we would like to reach those men -or at least just one of them – and help show that this is just not true.
Admittedly, that is challenging as we, too, are human, have our own triggers, and will inevitably have our own emotional responses to those men who write in with comments that range from pure rage and hostility to threats to absolute certainty that all women are out to harm men, so we must be also.
I’ve learned that empathy can be transformative. And I want to take that as far as I can.
However, I admit, I’m not going to always be perfect in my attempts to do that, because when I see a man threaten LR as one did today, I understand how she cannot respond to him with empathy, even if she wanted to.
We are not buddhas.
We are also survivors – as I think 99% – if not 100% – of all people are – of violence.
I do think that the term “gender violence” is useful – there are clearly men who have been victimized by women and there are clearly women who have been victimized by men. So, how do we proceed?
I could say that the hostility and anger that has entered discussions with LR and I needs to be tempered by those men as they need to think before they communicate in such ways with female survivors.
I have asked for a modicum of civility – and sometime that is honored and sometimes it isn’t.
I still see value in the hostile comments. It shows us how much real anger is out there – on all sides. So I think we need to acknowledge the reality of that and then deal with it.
What I will say is that there needs to be mutuality on all sides as well. I will speak for myself only here and say again that I do want to be as empathic and compassionate as I possibly can to any men who have been victimized by women. However, I must insist that those men then
1. Use critical reasoning skills (as this IS a discussion with specific mutually beneficial goals)
and
2. Consider that LR and I (and most other women) are ALSO survivors
and
3. Be able to step out of their pain to engage in useful discussion
I think those are reasonable expectations. If you think they aren’t, please let me know why. Thanks.
I beleive I’ve been empathic and compassinate with those men who have explicitly identified themselves as survivors of violence and who have made it clear that they are in a great deal of pain.
However, I have not received the same response from those men toward my own experience as a survivor of violence. We can learn from that – perhaps those individuals are just incapable of providing any empathy bc they are in too much of their own paid. That is valid.
But, then those people need to be in professional care, not on a blog – ideally.
And, yet, they ARE on the blog. So I will do the best I can.
But, there need to be the same standards of empathy for dealing with male and female survivors of violence.
However, I also realize that LR and I are literally choosing to walk directly into an extreme end of a spectrum and communicate with men who have obviously been very harmed by women and who are extremely angry with women.
Perhaps we should not *expect* empathy from those men for the violence we have experienced, but I see no reason why we cannot ask for it, say it is a need of ours, request this and then see what happens.
Requests are merely that – they are not demands.
I think LR has provided a great model of not censoring any comments on her site and honestly replying to what comes in.
I really have to stop now and I hope this was clear.
but, lastly, on Elin: I wish she had not attacked him with the golf club. It was not right. However, I also think that if most of us had just learned that the person we loved most in the world had potentially exposed us and our children to deadly diseases AND had betrayed our love and trust – that our behavior might be unpredictable and even uncontrollable. That does not make it right. However, when we look at trauma responses in humans, we can understand it.
By, “understand”, I do not mean excuse or justify – I mean we can understand how trauman affects humans.
And, I think that is the rub. THAT is what we see whether we’re looking at extreme MRA groups or revenge feminists. So, what do we do with all this?
I think we have to try to empathically understand these polarized positions. What I paritally have trouble understanding is why violence is not simply seen as violence and why these two camps are not on the same side.
However, of course, I DO see why – and that is part of the discussion also. And it’s complicated but also fascinating and I think very useful to explore and learn from and hopefully heal.
thanks
Denise
When, Mr. M….have you EVER seen or heard me promote or support or comment at a “Militant Feminism” or “Revenge Feminism” site? Never. That’s when.
The concern that Denise raised was “these comments go unchallenged” (or unmoderated, if you will).
I’m not asking if Denise (or you, I suppose) promote or support a site, or NOT comment at a site. I’m asking if instead of letting those comments slide, that either of you challenge them, as Denise seems to claim is the right thing to do. The obvious answer is “no” you have not. Never will.
And – I’ll take it you think spearhead is a misogynistic website because the comment section. I agree w/ welmer, lots of men can easily be upset and it is a place to vent harmlessly (since you know, internet fights don’t hurt anybody…right?).
Anyway, a place to vent is something I feel a LOT of men have no place to do so; for a man w/ plenty of friends or nil. I can’t imagine griping to my buddies about “how i’m concerned about divorce” – you can disagree here, but its also a type of topic I don’t want to broach and I’m sure most people don’t in a social gathering. For the most part, I’ve decided not discuss this with any RL friends – most people can’t handle the topic itself regardless of how well I present it. Unrelated but – same goes w/ health concerns too, I’d like to help people wrt health, but most just spout off the typical conventional wisdom things and turn off their brains. So, I don’t bother anymore.
I DO however think some anger is misplaced, as was mine. I realize I’m more upset at the system, as opposed to “just women”. The system that promotes this behavior, and rewards it in various ways as well.
Denise –
You use the term “violence” a lot, and quite loosely I might add. Would you bother defining exactly how you envision the word? Exactly what do you think “violence” encompasses?
m- on a deadline. cannot answer now.
however, thank you for this excellent question – which I think will benefit us all by exploring.
i will reply.
however, I invite you to share your own definition of the word in the meantime. I think that would help the discussion.
d
Lady Raine – did that dude just try to assert that an unattractive man with a boring office job IN HIS 40S, has more luck on the dating scene than an attractive WOMEN in her TWENTIES?!?!?!?!?!
Doesn’t that fly in the face of everything that GAME and EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGY is about?
Isn’t the fact that women ALWAYS have more options than men in the dating/mating/sex realm the whole REASON for “game” to begin with???
Afterall, PUAs are always saying they are simply trying to “even the score”…
however, I invite you to share your own definition of the word in the meantime. I think that would help the discussion.
Fair enough. I prescribe to the notion that violence is the “exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse” (taken from 1st definition provided by merriam-webster). That is, I believe violence is primarily physical in nature, generally via direct contact from 1 agent to another (ie: fist to face, person > gun > bullet > other person).
I don’t agree with expanding words to include everything under the sun. They (words) exist for a specific purpose – for communication. The more you blend words and contort definitions the less you contribute to understanding between 2 people (this is why we’re defining the term to begin with). You also devalue the meaning of the word. I don’t think calling Tiger’s infidelity on his family/wife violence really “honors” those who receive true physical violence – say a person stabbed during a mugging. A soldier shot on the battlefield. You want to equate that to infidelity??
Example:
Tiger woods cheating on Elin = Infidelity
Elin physically knocking 2 of Tiger’s teeth out = Violence
Do you don’t believe that emotional violence and psychological violence, exist?
Are you denying that Tiger exposed Elin to deadly STDs as a result of his infidelty?
That is an enormously important point.
He had unprotected sex with more than ten other women and presumably, he also has unprotected sex with Elin.
Are you aware of how AIDS, Hepatitis C, and other STDs are transimtted?
Are you aware that if Elin has be exposed to any of these that her breastfeeding child is also being exposed to these?
Denise
Additionally: Infidelity IS by definition ALL of the following:
It is emotinal abuse as it is a betrayal of vows of love, which I think even the evil criminal Roissy acknowledges when he discusses the pain of men learning their wives have been unfaithful. Regardless of the gender of the cheater and the cheatee, this is true.
It is psychological abuse as the mutually agreed upon boundaries of the relationship have been changed by one party without discussing it with the other party – which means that the cheatee believes he or she is involved in a situation and that he or she is actually not. If he or she knew the truth, he or she might not choose to be involved in it.
It is verbal abuse because it involves significant lying which directly relates to choices the cheatee makes about whom to share his or her body, time, heart, mind, energy, and love with.
It is physical abuse as it exposes the cheatee to diseases, some of which can kill.
It is sexual abuse as it places the cheatee in the position of unknowingly being sexual with a person who has violated the terms which the cheatee understands to be the terms of his or her agreement to be sexual with the cheater.
Regardless of gender, infidelity is violence on every level.
Denise
He had unprotected sex with more than ten other women and presumably, he also has unprotected sex with Elin.
Are you aware of how AIDS, Hepatitis C, and other STDs are transimtted?
Are you aware that if Elin has be exposed to any of these that her breastfeeding child is also being exposed to these?
………………………………….
This is THE MOST GRAVE AND IMPORTANT POINT in infidelity which the entire world seems to overlook!
How is it that educated adults are still under the illusion that we are living in a STD-free Universe?
Denise –
You’re making a lot of presumptions about the private relationship of Tiger & Elin (and the mistresses he had). Does he have STDs? Does Elin? Being exposed to a risk does not immediately equate to a victim of said risk.
In any case, I do know emotional/psychological “abuse” exists (notice how its “abuse” and not “violence”), I’ve been a victim of it, and probably victimized people with it. But like I said earlier, associating words such as “violence” to incorporate a one-stop-shop for all things bad in relationships only serves to gray communication. It is actually a little bit of sensationalist on your part, to try to equate infidelity to “violence.”
Also – Would you, again, please define how you see/use “violence”?
**Sidenote, I don’t excuse Tiger for his infidelity, if he wanted to sleep it up he should have not married – we’re still defining the word “violence”
Ms Romano,
Please note the order of my posts is incorrect. I’ll stop screwing you around as I clearly had an unfair advantage – you have no idea of who or what I am. I’m not an MRA or a PUA. I dabbled with the mens rights stuff for a couple of years partly to deprogram myself of my lifelong irrational, hatred of men (Irrational given that no man ever abused or hurt me…other story entirely ). For the record my state government runs a sexual assault counselling network in which I am a board member. The client bases are typically eighty percent female. If you were seeking employment at the centre in my region I would likely be on the interview panel.
The faux pas you committed with those links and more broadly was to go straight to a reference relating to gay men and domestic violence(?). You appear to have defaulted to an assumption that I was abused by a male. You are not the first to do this and you will not be the last. It is, however, very offensive to male victims of female perpetrators. A counselor should know better. It is why I am dubious about your capacity to work effectively with male victims regardless of how successful you think you may have been. It also concerns me that you indulge in psychological profiling on the basis of words on the internet. I know of no counselor, and I know many, who would do this.
The dynamic that exists with sexual abuse between adults should not be applied to child sexual abuse. To do so leaves children unprotected and endangered. Scrutiny is distorted from what reality requires.
The reality is that boys are half the victims of child sexual abuse and are just as likely to be abused by either gender. There are also quite a few girls who are abused by female perpetrators. This is why I referred to distortions in protection regimes in my earlier post. As an example in a school setting a teacher who sexually abuses a student is three times as likely to be female than male. A boy is a significantly more likely victim than a girl in that setting. Indeed outside the home and family settings boys are more likely to be victimised than girls.
Another good example is the recent circumstances in the UK. The majority of the significant busts of paedophiles/child porn producers in that country over the past year or so have been women. They were child care workers and teachers. Procuring their victims on the job. These offenders slipped through their working with children checks on the basis of their gender alone. In effect if they were female they passed the check automatically. Distortion created by existing prejudices and enhanced by a discourse that hides female perpetration, often deliberately or for reasons of politics.
Given that more than two thirds of the survivors of child abuse overall were abused by women – for parental child abuse it’s eighty percent – I wonder if Jackson Katz is ever going to hold innocent women responsible for stopping that abuse. Or is it only mens’ responsibility. The folk who are pushing Katz’ line in my country also argue that male victims should not be believed. One of them teaches this to future welfare workers in my state. Incredibly prejudicial. But these people have the ear of chivalrous governments across the country.
I would out also point out that more than half – the lowest research outcome is 59% – of those men convicted of the rapes of women were molested by a woman when younger. As a psychologist who works in our prison system put to me when I disputed this “where do you think their anger comes from?” Much research supports him as I discovered a couple of years after.
We can reduce sexual abuse where it has a cyclical basis but we will not achieve this while we are not fair to all victims. What you do is mostly irrelevant. You operate at the nether end of things. To a certain extent so do I. It is the community belief systems that matter here. We do not speak to male victims. In fact we speak to males in terms that do not permit them to be victims to begin with. When you hold innocent men and boys responsible for things they have not done and would probably never do you contribute to further marginalisation of the victims among them. If we don’t talk to victims appropriately they can never answer. If they can’t be victims they can NEVER be survivors.
The shaming and blaming of men and boys is not going to solve anything. That has been demonstrated over the past thirty years and probably forever in reality. You may think Katz a progressive. I would dispute this. He is merely more of the same. Hold men responsible for everything and excuse women of everything. What WOULD be progressive would be for western societies to learn to be as compassionate toward men as we are toward women. For the entirity of our history the male has always been the more disposable. Our lesser compassion is a protective mechanism borne very much of this reality. Change this and we may progress. Shaming and blaming men and, particularly, boys as happens in schools in your country and mine, will not achieve anything and may indeed make it worse.
“You’re making a lot of presumptions about the private relationship of Tiger & Elin (and the mistresses he had):”
I am presuming that they didn’t use condoms, and I do not think that is an unreasonable presumption to have.
“Does he have STDs? Does Elin? Being exposed to a risk does not immediately equate to a victim of said risk.”
Are you FREAKING KIDDING???
Do you have ANY idea what this means for Elin? Assuming she and Tiger were not using condoms for every instance of oral, vaginal, or any other sex they may have had, SHE HAS BEEN EXPOSED to whatever he has been exposed to.
You’re right. We do not have the STD results of the more than 10 or 12 women T. slept with, and we don’t know with whom he used condoms and with whom he didn’t.
But, what we DO know is that the likelihood of him having exposed himself and THUS ELIN and the young breastfeeing child to STDs is very very likely.
AND, we also know don’t know who else those other women were having unprotected sex with in between Tiger and who else their other sex partners were having unprotected sex with as well.
The more one looks at this situation and acknowledges both the possibilities and the likelihoods (based on what we know of T NOT using condoms with many or most or even all of these women) – the more exponentially the risk that Elin and her youngest child HAVE been exposed to an STD increases.
AND, you are completely overlooking the enormous trauma of Elin – or anyone who has been cheated on – to now wait a certain amount of agonizing days before any test result will be reliable and valid. That is yet more psychological and emotional violence. And if the trauma is such that the cheatee becomes physically ill from that stress, then it is ALSO additional physical abuse.
“In any case, I do know emotional/psychological “abuse” exists (notice how its “abuse” and not “violence”), I’ve been a victim of it, and probably victimized people with it.”
In response to your statement above, then I supposed we disagree. I believe and assert that emotional, psychological and verbal abuse are also violence.
“But like I said earlier, associating words such as “violence” to incorporate a one-stop-shop for all things bad in relationships only serves to gray communication. It is actually a little bit of sensationalist on your part, to try to equate infidelity to “violence.” ”
I am not just talking about “bad relationships”. I am talking about behavioral standards for any human in any form of interaction with other humans.
I disagree that this “grays communication”; in fact, I assert that this CLARIFIES communicaiton and what comprises acceptable behavior.
Is everyone always going to be perfect? Ofcourse not. If we slip slightly and rarely does that make us criminals or “violent people”? No, it makes us HUMAN and imperfect and hopefully – able to acknoweldge that we’ve slipped, and with what kind of frequency and severity.
And, those who respect and love themselves and the others wtih whom they interact and who VALUE mutuality and respecting others, will WANT to have this kind of self-awareness and will want to honestly acknowledge and improve.
As for this being sensationalist, I completely disagree.
Also – Would you, again, please define how you see/use “violence”?
**Sidenote, I don’t excuse Tiger for his infidelity, if he wanted to sleep it up he should have not married – we’re still defining the word “violence””
I have to admit, I feel within myself as I read your words about infidelity, a huge amount of outrage.
I do believe that this outrage is what fuels alot of feminism and also just general anger towards and dispapointment in men from women whether they are feminists or not.
I am consciously choosing to not react out of that, but I want to make it clear that it is very much present.
It is extremely disturbing that you and many other men (and certainly an amount of women who cheat as well) do not seem to understand the enormity of the true violence that infidelity is.
I am disturbed that you don’t see this. I am trying here to come off as attacking you, but I am truly disturbed.
I am asking you to please put yourself in Elin’s place or consider if your committed partner/wife/lover/gf, whatever, did that to you.
And, also do consider that it is much more likely for a woman to be infected by AIDS from a man than it is for a man to be infected by AIDS from a woman – so Elin is actually at great risk. I do not think it is at all unreasonable to conclude this.
To simplify it, if you were walking down the street and some crazy person ran out of a hosital with a dirty needle and stuck you and you then learned the crazy person had already stuck 12 other random people on with that same needle – how would you feel?
would you feel assaulted? You were.
would you feel violated? you were.
would you feel victimized? you were.
Would you feel that the person who did this to you is a criminal? That person IS a criminal.
would you be terrified of what diseases you may have been exposed to? you should be.
How would you cope during the three months that you had to then wait for accurate results?
imagine you’re a woman who is currently breastfeeding a child. Your doctor tells you that you have to stop breatsfeeing the child until your test resutls are back.
now imagine that the person who did this to you is not a crazy person but is the person you love most in the world, to whom you have committed yourself and with whom you have two children.
on top of ALL Of those physical realities (which ARE the result of straight up violence), you now will have a crushing emotional and psychological trauma to deal with.
Violence causes injury.
Abuse causes injury.
Abuse is violence.
Certainly there are degrees of severity.
Certainly not all of it equals criminal behavior.
Certainly all humans are capable of it and should endeavor to avoid it and thus act with as much self-control and discipline as possible.
AND, yet we all have emotions, and we have experiences of the five basic emotions from which all other emotions develop:
anger
surprise
fear
sorrow
joy
We are taught how to acknowledge, experience, process, communicate, and act on our emotions by our upbringing, our friends, our lovers, our workplaces, our media, our schools, our religions, our teams, our cultures, other cultures – and whatever else we are exposed to and seek out.
The point is, we have choices. We now have access to vast amounts of information about how the human brain works.
We have access to proven sound conflct resolution, trauma healing methods, communication methods, and yes understandings of both men and women as the beings we are NOW in the present.
We have access to so much that can help us make just, ethical, wise, empathic, sound, compassionate choices in how we deal with our feelings and needs and those of others.
There is no reason to be exploitative, mercenary, predatory, dishonest, manipulative, coercing, unethical, unempathic, or unjust in our dealings with others, regardelss of gender.
How do you NOT see the violence that infideltity IS????
Denise
Denise –
Once again, you’re presuming a lot. What if Tiger & Elin haven’t had sex since their baby? Maybe their relationship “fell apart” privately long before it did publicly? Maybe they didn’t have sex during breast feeding time? So many variables, Denise. Who are you to presume anything before the facts, if ever, are known? Frankly, this *should* be a private matter.
I’m not really overlooking the trauma as you claim, by the way. We’re still trying to define your use of the term “violence,” which you have yet to clearly define for me.
I still maintain it grays communication. Languages have vocabulary, or an assortment of words, for a specific reason. That reason is to convey, as best as possible, a specific item/emotion/idea/something/etc. You already use the term “emotional abuse,” for instance. I think that acceptably portrays the given thought/circumstance. “emotional VIOLENCE” ??? Hm. Well, once again I gave you my definition of violence, obviously it is at contrast to yours (Reminder: Provide your definition of violence, clear & concise, please)
Not sure why you’re outraged and disturbed, to be honest. I’m trying to better understand your use of one word, yet you are assigning on me your feelings that “fuel feminism” and “general anger towards and dispapointment in men from women” – sure you’re not a sensationalist?
We don’t agree on a definition, but apparently that causes you outrage and other ill-feelings.
I would prefer you not draw an analogy from infidelity to a random street “stabbing” with an HIV infected needle. It is not the same. You’re also trying to paint Tiger as a legally-defined criminal. He’s not a criminal; adultery is not a crime, nor is infecting someone with an STD. Before you get outraged and disturbed, ask yourself > Does that mean I agree with infidelity or the transmission of STDs?
I full-well understand the gravity of the situation, as I have been cheated on before (no kids, though) and understand the hurt it can cause. Have you been cheated on?
Violence causes injury.
Abuse causes injury.
Abuse is violence.
That’s also somewhat reductionist, don’t you think? In any case, a clear, concise, definition, of your view of what violence comprises/represents, is requested, yet again. Thanks!
** Also – And, also do consider that it is much more likely for a woman to be infected by AIDS from a man than it is for a man to be infected by AIDS from a woman
Could you cite a reference/study/proof of this? I’m inclined to think transmission from Male>Female & Female>Male are the same, but I’m curious to see facts surrounding this.
To HughRistik :
If you search male survivors, have you checked in forums about Borderline Personality Disorder like this one : http://www.psychforums.com/borderline-personality/ There is a lot of guys there that have been abused by their borderline girlfriends.
To Denise :
You must be aware that for Roissy’s fan club female infidelity is worst than male infidelity an that female cuckolding is worst than rape (http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/cuckoldry-vs-butt-rape/).
M- I am exhausted from having had to meet a deadline today, and I still have another deadline for this friday (I think).
I am enjoying this discussion very much, and I’m glad we’re having it.
However, I want to be fair and after a rest, I need to really first respond to Clarence’s question posed to me.
Then, I need to reply to Obsidian’s open letter to me.
I want to do these things when I am well-rested.
so i will respond to this comment, but then I need to ask you to understand that I hope to work on these other responses first.
“Once again, you’re presuming a lot. What if Tiger & Elin haven’t had sex since their baby? Maybe their relationship “fell apart” privately long before it did publicly?”
You’re right. We really do not know those details. As for it being a private matter, just a reminder, I did not initiate the tiger/elin example, but i think it’s a good one for this discussion.
For the purposes of the discussion, let’s assume they were sleeping together – then I reiterate everything I’ve already said.
Also for the purposes of this discussion, let’s assume that what you’ve suggested above is correct – in that case then everything I’ve said about physical and sexual violence does not apply to the situation, but everything I’ve said about emotional, verbal, and psychologial violence does apply.
It is still violence, though probably not a crime.
Actually – that is a good question – is adultery a crime anywhere in the US anymore? I think it was at one time. Something to be researched.
This is tangential, but I do know that there are still more than 10 US states in which it is illegal to sell or buy a vibrator for sexual use (and i’m not sure about the legality of using them in those states), which I think is ridiculous.
Anyway, I think i have defined violence and I thnk you just disagree with me. But I will try again, in case I haven’t.
I see violence as anything that intentionally causes significant harm to someone, whether that is emotional, verbal, psychological, physical, or sexual.
That of course gets into what does “intentional” mean: i would say that would include negligence (should have known), ignorance (should have known), and willful assault.
I would not include accidentally bumping into someone on the street – even the bumpee fell down a flight of subway stairs and broke both legs: that is an accident.
but if the bumper did so willfully, OR was skateboarding on a crowded sidewalk and should have known s/he could harm someone that way: that is violence.
Tiger SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that what he would would cause significant emotional, psychological, and verbal harm to Elin and his kids – at the very least. Everyone I know still has sex after kids and during breastfeeding and even when the relationship isn’t going so well – so I think it’s very likely they were having unprotected sex – though I agree with you that we do not know for sure.
However, I am asking you to understand that I do believe the people who are on Team Elin and who are not so concerned that she hit him with a golf club in response to what he did – are people who have probably been cheated on and so they identify with Elin and they see what Tiger did as really egregious.
I know I see it as extremely egregious.
I also want to say that I also see this Elin/Tiger situation in this way, which I thnk may help clarify why I and others are not particularly concerned about E hitting T with the club:
It’s about a comparison of what she did to him vs what he did to her.
I realize now that I’ve read so many conflicting accounts of what she actually did to him, that i’m not sure what is true. Maybe we’re not even talking about the same thing. We should clarify that.
My understanding is that she hit and broke his car window with the golf club and that his injuries were from his car crash not from the golf club and not that she actually hit him. What is your understanding? And, am I mistaken?
I do see what she did to him much like comparing what a bullied child (child A) at school might do to another child (B) who has bullied child A.
It is child B who is causing the problem. It is child B who is abusing A. It is child B who should be finding other ways to express whatever B’s feelings and needs are rather than abusing A.
So, I do see B as an abuser and I do see A as a victim. Regardless of gender. And, I do think that if B harms A enough, it is understandable that A might slug B one day.
I don’t think it’s ideal and I hope it doesn’t happen, but that is how I see Elin’s role. She is someone who was abused by his many infidelities – even if they were no longer sleeping together – and she was traumatized and so that is why I’m not particularly disturbed by what she did to him.
Similarly, if a concentration camp prisoner manages to stab a nazi guard who has imprisoned him or her and is able to get away – I don’t have a problem with that. I realize it’s not a completely apples to apples comparison, but it might help you understand why I view Elin’s response as understandable, though not ideal.
In a more perfect world, Elin would have punched a pillow or ran 10 miles or cried alot or something. Any of those would have been better.
I think that even though you’re right, we do not know the details – we DO know this: Elin was extremely upset. I think it’s reasonable to extrapolate from that she was harmed by his betrayal.
“I still maintain it grays communication.” I disagree.
“Not sure why you’re outraged and disturbed, to be honest.”
Because you do not seem to get the very real risk of STDs and what that means. It could mean a death sentence. It could mean a life with Hep C. It could mean a life with herpes. It could have already harmed her infant.
And, even if the physical risks are not present because they were not having sex, I’m going to borrow a phrase from Gwallan – to be cheated on can rape your identity and soul.
I am not assigning anything to you. I am trying to understand why you don’t see someone who is harmed by someone else’s selfishness and betrayal and renegging on the deal (vows) to be violence.
“We don’t agree on a definition, but apparently that causes you outrage and other ill-feelings.”
No – I’m not outraged and disturbed bc you don’t agree with me but because you seem to not understand the egregious harm of cheating.
If they had some kind of agreement between themselves, then it wasn’t cheating and nothing I’ve said applies. BUT, based on both of their reactions and statements, I think we can agree they didn’t have such an agreement.
“I would prefer you not draw an analogy from infidelity to a random street “stabbing” with an HIV infected needle. It is not the same. ”
Why isn’t it the same? The physical health consequences are the same. That is what I’m outraged that you don’t see.
“You’re also trying to paint Tiger as a legally-defined criminal. ”
NO, I am not. I am saying he is an abuser in every way.
“He’s not a criminal; adultery is not a crime, nor is infecting someone with an STD.”
Actually knowingly infecting someone with AIDS IS a crime. People have been prosecuted and sent to prison for this, as they should be. I”m not sure about caselaw for other STDs.
“Before you get outraged and disturbed, ask yourself > Does that mean I agree with infidelity or the transmission of STDs?”
I don’t understand your question above. Are you asking me if I agree with infidelity? I see infidelity as abuse in every way.
If two people mutually and with equal say decide that the boundaries of their relationship do not include monogamy, that is their right and they can also define what constitues or does not constitue infidelty as long as they agree on that. They also need to be responsible in terms of safe sex, honesty, getting tested as needed, and all that.
Do I agree with the transmission of STDs? I don’t understand your question.
“I full-well understand the gravity of the situation, as I have been cheated on before.”
But you do not seem to understand the physical health aspects of it.
Violence causes injury.
Abuse causes injury.
Abuse is violence.
“That’s also somewhat reductionist, don’t you think?”
Perhaps, but I also think it’s reasonale and true.
“Could you cite a reference/study/proof of this? I’m inclined to think transmission from Male>Female & Female>Male are the same”
I really thought this was common knowlege. This is only one study, but there have been many done with the same conclusions:
http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102239234.html
And there is this, which is interesting, which is relevant to why I and many others do see cheating as a form of violence:
http://aids.about.com/od/hivprevention/a/criminalizing.htm
d
Mr M–
I’m on my cell so I’m kinda answering casually, but there HAVE been people who intentionally infected others with HIV (out of revenge) and WERE convicted of a “violeent crime” because they literally “murdered” the person with intent to do exactly that. I will look for that tomorrow.
Furthermore, denise is correct about women getting STDs far more easily than men (namely AIDS/HIV).
I am in no way being “tongue in cheek” when I say this, but I recall that back in 7th Grade Health class (you know….when they separate the boys and girls so the talks are open) I recall a huge emphasis on the fact the even BLADDER infections are far easier to transmit “man-woman” but not “woman-man”
This was also the same for STDs that transmitted in a similar way (HIV is one of them).
Not be graphic, but the reason is what you’d probably guess…..for men everything is neatly tucked INSIDE (the penis) and for women….their lady parts are essentially “turned inside out” because it is soft “inner” tissue (for lack of better words) while for men…..the infection/disease has to literally make its way into the urethra and travel to infect him, while the woman has various ways to “absorb” these diseases with it needing to actually enter the urethra of vaginal openings at all.
I realize that the entire explanation is pretty….err…graphic, but I’m trying to not make it all Medical Stuff when the answer isn’t complicated enough to warrant “med lingo”.
I sincerely hope that explains it, but unless the Medical Community changed the facts on things like that and I don’t know it, I’m pretty sure that Denise is 100% on that point.
(And for future reference, a man can EASILY give a woman a bladder/kidney infection by something as simple as a man “not dabbing with toilet paper after urination and just shaking it off”.
The quote above is actually straight from a Medical Doctor’s mouth.
The female sex organs are almost like if your tongue was on the outside of your body….in terms of “soft absorbent tissue” versus men’s nearly “normal” skin found on the penis/testes.
Dammit! I clicked reply on “profiling vs game” and somehow it posted my answer to MR M about “female AIDS transmission” on “exposed!” instead. Grrrrr
Agh! I really really hate this shitty cell phone App, I really do. And this is why. I can only imagine what context my response looks like.
Mr M-
I agree with you that most adult abusers WERE abused as children. They have a tough fight to NOT grow into an abuser themself.
And I agree that abuse of boys BY WOMEN seems to be “dismissed” just because women tend to be less aggressive and/or violent about it.
However, the part where you state that MOST adult male abusers were not only abused as children….but by women most often.
Not only is that factually untrue, its also sounds like you are misusing Freud’s “childhood trauma” theories to EXCUSE men who grow up to be abusers themselves.
(In truth, normally its Feminists I see misusing Freudian Psych in this way…..not men)
A man who was abused as a child IS a REAL victim of abuse. No question.
However their childhood abuse is in NO WAY an excuse for their becoming adult abusers and more importantly, those men are no less “a criminal” than a man who was NOT abused as a child.
There are many men and women who WERE abused sexually, physically, and mentally who grew up and became normal, healthy non-abusive adults.
Also: You mentioned earlier that “you don’t see us chatising Revenge Feminist….just ignoring them”.
I already provided examples to “Gwallen” in which I did, indeed, contact Revenge Feminists and rake them over the coals. I have also written t.v. Channels like Lifetime, Oxygen, and WE (Women’s Entertainment) and tore them up about how their shows like “Snapped” clearly romanticizes Female Killers who target men (and even children) and present it like its just a “true crime story” when it CLEARLY is not.
I have spoken publicly to both women and men about those sorts of things (back when I wasn’t a mom and could be really political and involved).
I preached for the true and disturbing reasons: “When you look at men as a gender as the enemy and ENJOY emasculating them, using them, oppressing them, and blaming them for what their grandaddies may or may not have done…..you are guilty of being exactly the same as the Misogynists women already fought against. Furthermore, you widening the divide between the genders and embarrassing women everywhere. If you (as women) are so empowered…..so free…..so capable…..why do you feel the need to destroy men to prove those things?”
If you are familiar with “Biting Beaver” than you also know that she does not allow ANY comments at all. I sent her personal emails instead tearing her up as much as I do the men for making me embarrassed to be a woman and for giving Misogynists a very valid argument (and much more, I assure you.)
I don’t know why you assumed that neither Denise or myself has “spoken against” those Feminists, but I KNOW I have actively and unanonymously done exactly that.
Haven’t you ever noticed that not a single “Revenge Feminist” has ever posted here? None link me or my blog, either. Go look around and visit those sites…..if there ARE any links to me (now) I’d imagine its only to the “Exposed!” post (since R is such a dick).
I think the fact that I do NOT seem to have any sort of “Revenge Feminist” following means that I’ve made my message clear to THEM at least.
(Furthermore, I assure you that those feminists HATE me. I don’t take child support or welfare AND I earned my way into CNC Programming and Engineering by the exact same sweat as the men I work with did. Revenge Feminist consider me an “enemy” to their cause because I don’t take handouts for previous oppression that I personally have not endured. Basically my presence on earth, my refusal of child support, and my being the 1% of women in my field makes me the equivalent of a Misogynist to THEM as well.)
Lady Raine – did that dude JEFF just try to assert that an unattractive man with a boring office job IN HIS 40S, has more luck on the dating scene than an attractive WOMEN in her TWENTIES?!?!?!?!?!
Doesn’t that fly in the face of everything that GAME and EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGY is about?
Isn’t the fact that women ALWAYS have more options than men in the dating/mating/sex realm the whole REASON for “game” to begin with???
Afterall, PUAs are always saying they are simply trying to “even the score”…
Oh crap did I just fuck up AGAIN and post a retort to MR M with parts that were a different commenter?
See? This is what happens when you have too much in one day then try to post on your phone with a fever while watching t.v……lol
(Btw the way everyone….the court case I had today? I won!!!! It was WAY more dramatic than I expected with lots of objecting and even me having to draw and explain a diagram on the dry erase board, lol…..what makes it funnier is that I did NOT expect the “drunk asshole” to have a defense attorney AND to be cross examined by him……that’s not the funny part. The funny part is that I had no lawyer, represented myself, and STILL WON!!! It doesn’t hurt that the Police Officers were on my side of the Courtroom and were ALSO jumping in and “objecting” as well!!! It was actually pretty wild and I plan to post the details tomorrow……mostly for a new place to have off topic conversations in the comments section. I’m a huge fan of off topic debate because I don’t think there’s such a thing as being “off topic”.)
Desi-
Well I thought the mere fact that Roissy practices Game is evidence enough him NOT being successful with women and NOT having dating options. I mean, how many men learn Game because they’re SO GOOD with women????
That would be like a person who doesn’t drink spending thousands on AA and Rehab “just in case they were to ever drink…..and have a drinking problem”.
The day something like THAT happens, I’ll change my opinion that “men who learn/use Game are men who are NOT successful with women and who do NOT have lots of dating options”.
Thanks for pointing out the irrational argument there.
(PS: I did not ban that guy, but open threats of physical violence on ME or on any poster/commenter here will NOT be tolerated after this point. I’m leaving there, though because I want good old Jeff to remember my promise: that he will NOT get a second chance to threaten me here or anywhere else.)
EVERYONE ELSE: I will NOT tolerate any comments that are direct threats of violence against me or any other poster here! I do NOT want any person who thinks about posting here (even if they are posting insults about me) to see comments like Jeff’s and feel too “intimidated” by the threat of retribution to comment honestly here.
Again, please see Jeff’s comment so that you all understand my ONLY rule!!!
Jeff has not been moderated, banned, or edited…..but he will NOT be threatening anyone here again. Please remember that rule because it IS my only rule on commenting (other than actual SPAM as previously mentioned).
In truth I think Jeff was trying to bait me into “retaliating” against him like I did to Roissy. Either for attention, blog hits, or maybe something more sinister. (Sorry Jeff, every “brillant idea” you think you had…..I already thought of. Never, never test me and expect me to crumple OR fly off into a rage. I am far more controlled than you could ever imagine, good sir.)
M- I am exhausted from having had to meet a deadline today, and I still have another deadline for this friday (I think).
I am enjoying this discussion very much, and I’m glad we’re having it.
However, I want to be fair and after a rest, I need to really first respond to Clarence’s question posed to me.
Then, I need to reply to Obsidian’s open letter to me.
I want to do these things when I am well-rested.
so i will respond to this comment, but then I need to ask you to understand that I hope to work on these other responses first.
“Once again, you’re presuming a lot. What if Tiger & Elin haven’t had sex since their baby? Maybe their relationship “fell apart” privately long before it did publicly?”
You’re right. We really do not know those details. As for it being a private matter, just a reminder, I did not initiate the tiger/elin example, but i think it’s a good one for this discussion.
For the purposes of the discussion, let’s assume they were sleeping together – then I reiterate everything I’ve already said.
Also for the purposes of this discussion, let’s assume that what you’ve suggested above is correct – in that case then everything I’ve said about physical and sexual violence does not apply to the situation, but everything I’ve said about emotional, verbal, and psychologial violence does apply.
It is still violence, though probably not a crime.
Actually – that is a good question – is adultery a crime anywhere in the US anymore? I think it was at one time. Something to be researched.
This is tangential, but I do know that there are still more than 10 US states in which it is illegal to sell or buy a vibrator for sexual use (and i’m not sure about the legality of using them in those states), which I think is ridiculous.
Anyway, I think i have defined violence and I thnk you just disagree with me. But I will try again, in case I haven’t.
I see violence as anything that intentionally causes significant harm to someone, whether that is emotional, verbal, psychological, physical, or sexual.
That of course gets into what does “intentional” mean: i would say that would include negligence (should have known), ignorance (should have known), and willful assault.
I would not include accidentally bumping into someone on the street – even the bumpee fell down a flight of subway stairs and broke both legs: that is an accident.
but if the bumper did so willfully, OR was skateboarding on a crowded sidewalk and should have known s/he could harm someone that way: that is violence.
Tiger SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that what he would would cause significant emotional, psychological, and verbal harm to Elin and his kids – at the very least. Everyone I know still has sex after kids and during breastfeeding and even when the relationship isn’t going so well – so I think it’s very likely they were having unprotected sex – though I agree with you that we do not know for sure.
However, I am asking you to understand that I do believe the people who are on Team Elin and who are not so concerned that she hit him with a golf club in response to what he did – are people who have probably been cheated on and so they identify with Elin and they see what Tiger did as really egregious.
I know I see it as extremely egregious.
I also want to say that I also see this Elin/Tiger situation in this way, which I thnk may help clarify why I and others are not particularly concerned about E hitting T with the club:
It’s about a comparison of what she did to him vs what he did to her.
I realize now that I’ve read so many conflicting accounts of what she actually did to him, that i’m not sure what is true. Maybe we’re not even talking about the same thing. We should clarify that.
My understanding is that she hit and broke his car window with the golf club and that his injuries were from his car crash not from the golf club and not that she actually hit him. What is your understanding? And, am I mistaken?
I do see what she did to him much like comparing what a bullied child (child A) at school might do to another child (B) who has bullied child A.
It is child B who is causing the problem. It is child B who is abusing A. It is child B who should be finding other ways to express whatever B’s feelings and needs are rather than abusing A.
So, I do see B as an abuser and I do see A as a victim. Regardless of gender. And, I do think that if B harms A enough, it is understandable that A might slug B one day.
I don’t think it’s ideal and I hope it doesn’t happen, but that is how I see Elin’s role. She is someone who was abused by his many infidelities – even if they were no longer sleeping together – and she was traumatized and so that is why I’m not particularly disturbed by what she did to him.
Similarly, if a concentration camp prisoner manages to stab a nazi guard who has imprisoned him or her and is able to get away – I don’t have a problem with that. I realize it’s not a completely apples to apples comparison, but it might help you understand why I view Elin’s response as understandable, though not ideal.
In a more perfect world, Elin would have punched a pillow or ran 10 miles or cried alot or something. Any of those would have been better.
I think that even though you’re right, we do not know the details – we DO know this: Elin was extremely upset. I think it’s reasonable to extrapolate from that she was harmed by his betrayal.
“I still maintain it grays communication.” I disagree.
“Not sure why you’re outraged and disturbed, to be honest.”
Because you do not seem to get the very real risk of STDs and what that means. It could mean a death sentence. It could mean a life with Hep C. It could mean a life with herpes. It could have already harmed her infant.
And, even if the physical risks are not present because they were not having sex, I’m going to borrow a phrase from Gwallan – to be cheated on can rape your identity and soul.
I am not assigning anything to you. I am trying to understand why you don’t see someone who is harmed by someone else’s selfishness and betrayal and renegging on the deal (vows) to be violence.
“We don’t agree on a definition, but apparently that causes you outrage and other ill-feelings.”
No – I’m not outraged and disturbed bc you don’t agree with me but because you seem to not understand the egregious harm of cheating.
If they had some kind of agreement between themselves, then it wasn’t cheating and nothing I’ve said applies. BUT, based on both of their reactions and statements, I think we can agree they didn’t have such an agreement.
“I would prefer you not draw an analogy from infidelity to a random street “stabbing” with an HIV infected needle. It is not the same. ”
Why isn’t it the same? The physical health consequences are the same. That is what I’m outraged that you don’t see.
“You’re also trying to paint Tiger as a legally-defined criminal. ”
NO, I am not. I am saying he is an abuser in every way.
“He’s not a criminal; adultery is not a crime, nor is infecting someone with an STD.”
Actually knowingly infecting someone with AIDS IS a crime. People have been prosecuted and sent to prison for this, as they should be. I”m not sure about caselaw for other STDs.
“Before you get outraged and disturbed, ask yourself > Does that mean I agree with infidelity or the transmission of STDs?”
I don’t understand your question above. Are you asking me if I agree with infidelity? I see infidelity as abuse in every way.
If two people mutually and with equal say decide that the boundaries of their relationship do not include monogamy, that is their right and they can also define what constitues or does not constitue infidelty as long as they agree on that. They also need to be responsible in terms of safe sex, honesty, getting tested as needed, and all that.
Do I agree with the transmission of STDs? I don’t understand your question.
“I full-well understand the gravity of the situation, as I have been cheated on before.”
But you do not seem to understand the physical health aspects of it.
Violence causes injury.
Abuse causes injury.
Abuse is violence.
“That’s also somewhat reductionist, don’t you think?”
Perhaps, but I also think it’s reasonale and true.
“Could you cite a reference/study/proof of this? I’m inclined to think transmission from Male>Female & Female>Male are the same”
I really thought this was common knowlege. This is only one study, but there have been many done with the same conclusions:
http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102239234.html
And there is this, which is interesting, which is relevant to why I and many others do see cheating as a form of violence:
http://aids.about.com/od/hivprevention/a/criminalizing.htm
d
Denise really is not far off because even U.S. Law recognizes that “intent” or lack of intent definitely changes the parameters of a crime that has been comitted.
And its not like its a difference that could be easily dismissed because mere “intent” in the way Denise described can make the difference between getting the Death Penalty….and getting Murder II, Manslaughter or even Voluntary/Involuntary Manslaughter (which could drop the Death Penalty sentence down to anything from 25 years all the way down to 10 years imprisonment).
If the Law recognizes the difference in such a dramatic way, then its hardly a far cry for Denise to believe that “intent” can change “violent abuse” to just “abuse” or even “unintentional abuse”.
(Btw Denise, my guess on the vibrators is that its a “religious” reason like “Fornication” and “Adultery” because many Christian faiths believe that ANY penetration and/or sexual act is considered “cheating on your future husband” or “a sexual act outside the ties of marriage.”. I can’t figure out why its just vibrators, though and why the Law is still around when those things would only apply in the strictest of religious circles. And the fact that the mere sales and ownership of a vibrator do not necessarily indicate “fornication” and I cannot imagine what makes owning one illegal.)
Although there IS still a lot of State Law that is glaringly different from other states. For exampke there is still a state in the south (could be Kentucky but don’t hold me to it) where the punishment for a 1st offense DUI is *drum roll* NOTHING!
No fines, no rehab, no jail time, and NO license suspension. Not even a TICKET or even a specified “verbal warning”!!!
Meanwhile there are some states who punish first-time offenders with up to 6 months in Prison, thousands in fines, required rehab and community service, and max license suspensions.
It varies more than most people have ever imagined or could ever know!!
Gwallan:
I am requesting that you not “screw around” with any of us.
“The faux pas you committed with those links and more broadly was to go straight to a reference relating to gay men and domestic violence(?). You appear to have defaulted to an assumption that I was abused by a male. You are not the first to do this and you will not be the last. It is, however, very offensive to male victims of female perpetrators.”
I thought that might be what you were alluding to. You are assuming that I sought out those specific sites for you. I did not. I was very concerned about you – as I think others were as well – and I did not have alot of time and you presented yourself as very hurting and somewhat helpless.
So I simply went to a men’s site I know of and quickly copied and pasted a list that the men’s site recommends for male survivors. I made no assumptions whatsoever. And, I don’t know where you are or what kinds of counseling is done there, but generally here, all of the hotlines know each other’s numbers and if someone calls with a slightly different type of abuse issue, they can still handle it.
Here in NYC, there is a hotline called Safe Horizon that deals with everything: hate crimes, rape, DV, incest, human trafficing, immigrant abuse, etc etc etc…Most hotlines can handle whatever someone calls about regardless of gender, sexuality, age, language, relationship, etc. The exception obviously is they will not counsel children over the phone, but if a child called, they would be trained in how to proceed to get that child to safety. There are protocols.
Jackson Katz’ mission is very focused. He has chosen to work on a very specific thing, and I think it’s admirable.
Maybe someone else should take up the focus you suggest; maybe it should be you.
“The folk who are pushing Katz’ line in my country also argue that male victims should not be believed.”
I really do not think Katz would support not believing male victims. I do not support that either.
“One of them teaches this to future welfare workers in my state.”
So what are you doing about it? Do something!
“I would out also point out that more than half – the lowest research outcome is 59% – of those men convicted of the rapes of women were molested by a woman when younger.”
Yes, we know there are cycles of violence. I think this is part of what we’re seeing as we look at these polarized groups: We have MRAs who have been harmed by a woman or by women, we have revenge feminists who have been harmed by a man or men, and then we have the rest of us who have also been harmed by someone – and if we look closely and honestly, I think we can find that we’ve all been harmed in some way or another by persons of both genders.
“where do you think their anger comes from?”
Of course the research supports the anger comes from past mistreatment.
So, probably 99.9% of all humans on earth have been mistreated by other humans. What do we do about this?
Do we allow that to justify the kind of hatred we seen on the polarized ends of the spectrum – spearhead, roissy and the revenge feminists??
OR, do we try to have a conversation about this and learn from it and respect each other’s experiences and learn from them and consider things we never knew before to find some common ground?
I did not know there was a world such as spearhead and roissy. I did not know, and I am honstly still reeling from the shock of seeing much of those posts. And I reeling also from hearing of the hatred of men that apparently exists.
I honestly did not know these worlds existed.
“We can reduce sexual abuse where it has a cyclical basis but we will not achieve this while we are not fair to all victims.”
I agree. That means we have to be fair to both men and women. Why can’t we see them all simply as victims and make gender irrelevant as we respect, empathize, and help heal trauma? Isn’t that what is important?
Sure, there will be gender issues to address in the healing, but I do not see how there needs to be this competition about who is more victimized and by whom. I don’t see how this is useful.
“It is the community belief systems that matter here.”
I agree; and that is what LR and i are saying is so dangerous about roissy and the men on spearhead. someone here said those sites provide a safe space to vent.
I find it frightening that the stuff that is being venting exists. Why don’t they see a therapist and vent to someone who can make sure they won’t go out and act on these irrational rages?
“We do not speak to male victims. In fact we speak to males in terms that do not permit them to be victims to begin with.”
I don’t know who you mean by “we” in your statements above.
“When you hold innocent men and boys responsible for things they have not done and would probably never do you contribute to further marginalisation of the victims among them.:
AGain – I have no idea who you mean above by “you”. I am not doing this. It sounds like you think I am participating in this. I’m not.
“The shaming and blaming of men and boys is not going to solve anything.”
I agree. LR and I have discussed this. We agree with you.
I will take it further and say that the shaming of any human is not going to be useful and that includes the shaming of women AND men. Both. Humans. Hello??? HUMANS!
“Hold men responsible for everything and excuse women of everything.”
I completely disagree that Jackson Katz does this. Where anywhere in his material are you getting this? Please bring a citation for this.
“What WOULD be progressive would be for western societies to learn to be as compassionate toward men as we are toward women”
I agree. And I observe that there are many women who believe there is still no compassion for them and there are many men who believe there is no compassion for them. So, it sounds like we need more compasion for everyone, regardless of gender.
Maybe I should rename my blog “REGARDLESS OF GENDER”. I like it.
“For the entirity of our history the male has always been the more disposable.”
I respectfully disagree with you on this, and I think we could debate this until roissy declares that he is a feminist.
Why don’t we just agree that NOBODY is disposable, REGARDLESS OF GENDER!!! There! I said it again.
“Our lesser compassion is a protective mechanism borne very much of this reality.”
I really am too tired for a debate, but I cannot resist this: then what is the explanation for the men at spearhead and roissy’s who repeatedly state that all women are cunts and bitches and whores and will fuck any man who turns them on and have no love and no loyalty and no compassion?
Maybe it’s not fair to pose this to you as I don’t think you share those views – but again I just want to say that the statement you’ve just made about men can also be made about women.
I’m going to now abbreviate it: Regardless Of Gender + rog. Okay?
Everybody got that? and all caps is a pain in the ass, so just rog.
“Change this and we may progress. Shaming and blaming men and, particularly, boys as happens in schools in your country and mine, will not achieve anything and may indeed make it worse.”
yes, gwallan, I agree. can you agree that we need to also apply this women and girls?
rog…..
thanks
d
This comment was on the icky spearhead site:
“A woman being proud of getting laid is like an alcoholic proud of getting drunk. …”
And this was my response:
Why?
Women have sexual needs and desires also. What is wrong with that? The sole purpose of the clitoris is for sexual pleasure.
Seems like this is shaming women.
See? I really see the shaming and blaming going both ways – and it should all stop.
seriously.
rog….
this looks good:
http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com/counseling-ctr/a-path-to-recovery-start-here
They’re jealous of the Alpha Female Primate too;
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/01/04/amazonomachy-the-art-of-progress/#comment-18352
While I overwhelmingly agree with Mr. M on the subject of Tiger and the definition of violence, there are a couple things I should add:
HIV is indeed twice as easy for women to catch.
Infecting someone with an STD actually can be a crime.
But only if the perpetrator knows they have it. So far, we have no evidence that Tiger has any STDs. His behavior is reckless, and I’m willing to buy the claim that it is abusive, but it was not violence.
And I don’t agree that abuse is violence. Most people understand “violence” to involve physical force, and that’s how the dictionaries define it. If we conflate the two, then we have one less word to use.
Hugh,
Don’t you think it’s significant that Elin now has to wait at least 3 months for all of her STD tests to come back before she can breastfeed her child and before she knows for sure if she has any STDs?
Isn’t that level of harm equal to violence?
I guess for me it’s about INTENT.
that is why i see abuse as violence.
d
LR, and any roissy opposer actually,
if roissy starts posting again are you going to make comments?
If you do I think it is oil on the fire and feeding the polarization.
Why would a smart person do such a thing?
(unless they are somewhat connected, you are not the same person you claim, why do you put oil on his fire LR?)
LR EDIT: I both agree with you….AND disagree. I’ve battled the same ideas in my head on that, but as you can see from some of the comments here, it seems that it’s really important to some that we are DENOUNCING things that are wrong by both men and women.
I really don’t post at Roissy anymore, nor do I even read there because even though my comments have always been automatically sent to moderation, he has banned Denise and Myself from even posting to him directly. He will not approve our previous questions and/or comments (or mine even long before the “Exposed!” post was up). Basically what I am saying is that we cannot post there even if we tried at this point.
As for the rest, in some ways I think it adds fuel to the fire and I agree…..but at the same time both Denise and I have privately discussed our genuine SHOCK about these subcultures that evidently exist and are FAR more rampant than I or Denise could have ever imagined. It’s not like either one of us and “coddled and ignorant of the world” so she and I feel that it’s likely most OTHER people would be just as shocked as we are/were. I think that the common person sort of dismisses PUA’s/MRA’s and Misogynists and Revenge Feminists as being “few and far between” or even “benign and harmless”.
Due to the OVERWHELMING amounts of hate mail both Denise and I have received even though we are NOT man-haters or Revenge Feminists really IS shocking and tells us that these are serious issues that need to be taken as such. I cannot speak for Denise, but I think we both agree that “ignoring those kind of people” is NOT going to help anything and is also probably part of what led to such hatred/violence on their part in the FIRST PLACE (ie: being dismissed, ignored, mocked, condescended, etc. by women or others throughout their lives).
The same reason why we are imploring men and PUA’s to speak OUT AGAINST those groups if they do NOT want to be associated with them and want to help them realize that their attitude and behaviors are NOT “normal” and certainly not healthy. This is partially the fault of society itself and I think both Denise and I are guilty of the same attitude that most people are: “What’s this? Oh, it HAS to be a joke. It must be. Thank god these people are a rarity.”
The truth is….these men/women are apparently NOT a rarity and are growing more and more hateful BECAUSE of that.
Since you addressed the question to any of us, I’ll say that for me it is this:
I never knew he or such hatred of women actually existed. Someone quoted him to me, so I googled out of curiosity and was horrified at what I read there.
I was compelled to speak out against what he is saying and doing. It is disturbing and frightening to me that there are so many men who think this way about women.
Then, my horror was so great that I decided I wanted to try to dialogue with men and women about this hatred that I had no idea existed and to that extent.
I think that it’s alot like any hatred – those who are so entrenched in their hate need to know that there are others who find it unacceptable and why.
Maybe they will always think that way but maybe knowing that there are others who do not accept this thinking as healthy or normal might prevent the violence that is being talked about from being acted upon or might make someone think differently.
I think we hope to influence, educate, connect, diaglogue, and ultimately transform.
I liken this to having grown up in a white family with some very vocally racist uncles. I found this very disturbing even at the age of 12. I spoke out against it.
As I got older, my uncles, aunts, and cousins knew (because I made it known) that this kind of hate speech was not acceptable if I was around. I would not be near them or visit their homes if they were going to speak like that, tell those jokes, or whatever.
If they did, I would simply leave. And I would stay away for months and sometimes years.
I choose not to be near such hatred. There is no reason for it. And it’s horrifying to watch adults who know better do this in front of children, teaching them hatred.
Hating others based on identity is not healthy.
I don’t care if it’s race or gender; it’s a sickness about one’s own pain and ignorance and I think people of principle need to oppose it when they see it.
d
Denise,
What I was reacting to was your comment:
What worried me about this comment was that it sounded like it was condoning her violence towards him.
Now that you’ve clarified, I think I understand what you are saying:
You clearly do have a problem with her behavior on a moral level; you just don’t have so much of a problem with it on an emotional level. Correct me if I’m wrong.
I completely understand that our emotions do not always match up with our moral beliefs. There are a lot of injustices in the world, but that ones I get the maddest are the ones I can relate to on a personal level due to my life experiences. I tried to convey this view my previous post when I said: “I think it’s often easier to empathize with people of our gender. Hey, I do it, too.”
So I wouldn’t want you to think that I’m asking you to be a buddha—I’m certainly not one. What I wanted to do was make sure that you weren’t condoning her behavior on a moral level (which was the literal interpretation of quote), and I’m satisfied that you are not.
The other point I wanted to make is that in general, if you are trying to reach a male survivor, you are going to want to avoid making statements that literally read as condoning female violence towards men, such as “This is my perspective on Elin’s attack on Tiger: I don’t have a problem with it.” Furthermore, if you are a counseling interaction with a male survivor of female abuse, it’s probably not a good idea to discuss at length empathy for a woman who was abusive towards a man (even though that empathy might be important to discuss in another context). The reason I brought the point up is that you are interested in reaching male survivors in general, and gwallan criticized your capacity to do so.
Random thought: just as Elin reacted to Tiger’s behavior, what if Roissy’s slapping of his girlfriend was in reaction to violence by her against him?
I like the term “gender violence,” since the phrase “violence against women” is often thrown around as if it’s the only form of violence.
Note:I do disagree with gwallan’s claim “Women actually get turned on by other women abusing men and even boys”, as a generalization about women, even though it may well apply to some women.
I’m very sorry to hear that.
Here’s what happened to me in case you or anyone else is curious.
I prefer you do not delete my posts. In sum, I have contacts near you. We know who you are. You like to court trouble, and it will likely end very badly for you if you continue down this path. Think of this as friendly advice – whore.
Next time, it will not be so friendly.
Hugh,
Thank you for your comments. I just read your story, and I’m so sorry all of that happened. Bullying in schools and workplaces is such a serious problem. Are there other chapters on that same site?
I’ve been involved in grassroots efforts in the US to get legislation passed to make workplace bullying unlawful, but there are powerful lobbies against it.
Your point about being careful with language and descriptions is well-taken.
I do have a problem with Elin’s behavior on an emotional level to an extent, but I guess I do empathize with her trauma and so I find it understandable.
I have to acknowledge that I did think long and hard today (on and off) about how I would really feel if Elin cheated on Tiger with 12 men and then he hit her. I forced myself to really imagine that happening.
I have to admit it would really bother me.
I can already hear myself saying that he shouldn’t hit her; he should deal with his anger in a different way.
I suppose this is a form of bias that I have. This is not easy to acnkoweldge given all I’ve been saying and what my goals are here, but at the same time, I think this is a really good thing to realize and think hard about.
Afterall, I am asking others to reconsider their views on things.
I’ve been wondering about why I have this bias. I can only guess and come up with these hypotheses:
1. I may think this because I may have an idea of men being bigger and stronger and able to tolerate a few blows from a smaller, less strong woman. HOWEVER, I am NOT condoning it. I’m just trying to honestly explore why I believe or react to these two situations differently.
2. I have been taught my whole life that women and girls should not be hit by anyone, ever. I have also been taught that about men, HOWEVER, I am also surrounded by a culture in which there is boxing, wrestling, football, hockey, rugby, etc. where men regularly do hit each other. AGAIN, I’m not condoning it; I’m trying to understand why there is something less egregious in my undertanding of men being hit than women being hit.
3. I’m sure there is more, but it’s late and I can’t come up with anything else right now. To be continued at some point.
To answer your question about what if r. slapped his gf in response to violence to him by her; this is a good question. I have to admit I grew up being taught that you don’t hit a girl even if she hits you. I think this may have been said by teachers in school.
Certainly this is unfair and wrong; especially since there are times in the development of children when girls are bigger than boys at certain ages and just because it’s wrong.
I do see the terrifying message this must send to boys, especially booys of smaller stature or who aren’t “fighters”.
I do have some things to say about Gwallan:
“Furthermore, if you are a counseling interaction with a male survivor of female abuse, it’s probably not a good idea to discuss at length empathy for a woman who was abusive towards a man (even though that empathy might be important to discuss in another context). The reason I brought the point up is that you are interested in reaching male survivors in general, and gwallan criticized your capacity to do so.”
I am not counseling Gwallan. This is a blog discussion. Gwallan came on very strong and very angry with alot of really extreme statements. He then presented himself as someone in a great deal of pain who seemed to indicate that he had no support or resources.
I sent him links out of concern for him. I discussed with him, bc he discussed here and said things I wanted to respond to. But, in no way was I counseling him. Counseling has to start with rapport and there was no rapport between Gwallan and me.
He then said he was “jerking me around” or something like that. I still don’t know if he was playing a role as some kind of test or if he meant all that he said with the intensity he said it.
I am interested in reaching all humans who are interested in these issues. As I’ve said, I think we are probably all survivors of violence and/or gender violence in varying degrees.
I think that if someone is really traumatized to the extent that they cannot think critically or they are going to be so traumatized by opposing opinions, then they probably shouldn’t be blogging on this topic.
But, having said that, I’m not going to ban people from the discussion, because you never know what good things might happen from it.
I do think alot of good can come of it. And I am revamping my blog, but that will take time that I won’t have until the wknd or early next week.
I don’t want to upset Gwallan again, but I do find it concerning that someone in a professional posiition in the counseling field will say the kinds of things he did, but again, I don’t know how much he was posturing or how much he meant of what he said.
Then again, apparently people thing the things I’m saying are ridiculous and unfair. I do want to hear why.
And I am examining these things. I have to if I’m asking others to do the same, and I will.
I have alot of ideas about how to approach this, and I’m frankly so excited about the revamping and how to address these many angles of this large and complex issue that I’ve been having trouble sleeping, having trouble turning my brain off.
Thanks for your second to last sentence. I have been torn about whether or not I want to go into detail on the web about my story. I applaud you for writing yours.
I will share briefly what I’m comfortable sharing which is that:
When I was 12, my orthodontist molested me. It was mild on the spectrum of what is posible, but still terrifying and very upsetting.
When I was 20, I was raped by a law student I was on a date with. We had a date the night before and it was perfect. I was home for the summer from college, and I met him at work.
I used to do market research in the mall. I interviewed him for a survey we were doing and afterwards, he asked me out.
The first date was perfect. He picked me up, met my parents, we drove to a movie theatre and saw an Argentinian film which was very good and then we talked about the film for about an hour in his car. Then he drove me home. There was a small polite goodnight kiss.
I was very naive and quite innocent compared to most women my age, so that was just my speed.
The next day he called me and said he wanted to go out again that night. He asked me what I wanted to do and I said, “the same thing – let’s see a great movie and then discuss it”.
So, he picked me up, we drove to the movie theatre but in the parking lot, he said, “I don’t want to see a movie”. I was caught off guard and asked what he wanted to do.
He said he wanted to go to his apt. Again, I was very naive and I had no idea I was in any danger. I wasn’t afraid at all at this point.
We drove to his apt, and there was just a bed, a desk, and bookshelves. It was really just a room he rented in a house.
I sat on the bed because he guided me to sit there and that was the only place to sit. Then he locked the door.
I still wasn’t scared because he lived in one room, and that’s what people do when they get home; they lock their doors.
Then he started kissing me and it was nice, BUT then he started trying to take my clothes off.
I told him to stop and I said, “What are you doing?”
Then, he got up and took a very sharp letter opener from his desk and I he began circling me as I sat frozen on his bed with my clothes half off.
He kept saying over and over again, “You have some body, young lady; are you gonna share it with me?”
I was frozen with fear. I just looked at him and he just kept circling me and saying that and he was slapping the letter opener into the palm of his hand.
I was terrified, and I believed he would kill me.
It was very clear to me that I was not getting out of there unless I slept with him.
I said at one point, “Why do you think I’m going to sleep with you; I don’t know you well enough to sleep with you.”
And he said something about my question being rhetorical. This went on for at least 15 minutes or so, and then he just came over to me and said, “You want to share your body with me”.
And I was crying and I said, “No, I don’t. And, I have my period”.
He said “I don’t care”. And I said “I do, I don’t want to”.
And he just started taking the rest of my clothes off and I was so frozen in fear and terrified of him that I could barely speak.
I did try to resist him physically, but it was futile. He was much bigger and stronger than I was.
When it got to the point where he was going to penetrate me, I managed to say, “please don’t hurt me”.
There was blood everywhere. I was in shock. He gave me a white towel.
Then he wanted to cuddle. He wanted me to tell him about a play I was in at college. He wanted me to do a monologue from it for him. I still thought he was going to kill me.
Then, he asked me how many boyfriends I had ever had, and I said just one serious one in college.
He was shocked that he was only the second person I had ever had sex with and he said, “Oh, wow, if I knew, I wouldn’t have done that.”
Then he said, “I better drive you home so your parents don’t worry”. And he did.
I was a wreck and I called my best friend the next day and cried and I said, “Kim, I’m a slut”. And, she said, “no, he raped you.”
I went back to college about a week later and started seeing a counselor, which helped alot.
I do believe that I have healed as much as one can from such an experience.
I do not hate all men, and I never went through a stage like that. I have always seen him as just one man who did a terrible thing.
However, I do think there are still alot of men who do not understand the very real fear of rape that women do live with.
And, what concerns me about the PUA industry is that I believe they have ignored the numbers of women who have been raped in the US and some of their techniques could be very frightening and coercive.
The difference in size and strength that is generally true between men and women is not something that should be disregarded as a factor that can be intimidating if a woman is alone with a man.
I don’t like reading PUA stuff that instructs men to “isolate the target” and the LMR is very disturbing. I don’t think there is awareness of how terrifying that can be for a woman if her resistance is ignored. It is sexual aggression and it’s violative of boundaries and assaultive and can easily lead to rape.
I do think that even if a man doesn’t think to himself, “I’m going to rape this woman”, if he believes and has been taught that he has a right to keep violating her boundaries when she says no or moves his hand away and if he believes that she wants him to just dominate her and “take her” despite her communications to the contrary, he can easily rape her without even being aware that he has done so.
And this can happen because he erroneously believes incorrect things about “how women communicate” and “what women want”.
I am very distrubed by those trends in the PUA industry, and I do not think there is enough said about men’s responsibiity to prevent rape through their own awareness.
Thanks
Denise
Jack, your post to Lady Raine is a threat.
Why are threatening her?
We are trying to have a discussion here so everyone can better understand each other.
If you don’t want to join us, then don’t.
But stop threatening her.
Please.
LR EDIT: There is no “we”…..don’t worry. Jeff/Jack are the same poster trying to sound scary. It’s to be ignored.
“desi fpua macaca bitch” – We’re not comparing an “unattractive” man with a “boring” job in his 40′s with an “attractive” woman in her 20′s. We are comparing an obviously disturbed, obsessive, stalkerish, no boobs, 30+ woman, WITH an illegitimate kid full of criminal DNA, and who has admitted to being a very superficial person, with a 40 year old, successful, smart, tall, white man in DC. Roissy has a very good job if that is in fact him. What’s your job desi? Curry cook?
Get with the fucking program, dot face. Even those who would fuck and chuck Lady Raine would never “Date” her.
Jeff,
I’m asking you not to make racist statements to Desi and not to insult and say untrue things about LR.
You don’t know them.
Why are you so angry?
Denise
“Jack”–
Your threats do not concern me in the slightest. I’m sure that’s what makes you so angry. (And by the way I have logged, copied, and saved your IP addresses the likely-to-be-false email address you are posting from, and also your name. I will be collecting your real information and reporting your threats both to WordPress and also to the authorities in my area as well. Your IPs are easy to track and I can pinpoint exactly where you are in my area. I will also be passing THAT on to the local PD and the State Police as well.)
I will leave your comments up as proof to approximately 1,000 people per day as well.
Here is why you do not concern me on a personal level:
You state that you “know all about me” and know that in real life I like to “court trouble”. Considering those things are completely false about me, I know that you do NOT actually know me in real life, know anything about me, or know what i do and do not do. If you DID know me, you would never have made such a claim in the first place.
Second, have a good time trying to find an address on me that is a working one. I have no less than 4 individual addresses all in the same town. None of them are my actual residence. There is no log anywhere of my actual residence. That is another way that I know how ridiculous and blatantly dishonest your claims about me are.
Do you honestly believe that your “threats” frighten me or will somehow make me stop fighting Violence, Misogyny, and Rape whether Roissy is the one promoting them….or someone else? If that is what you think, you are going to be sorely disappointed.
There is a good reason why I do NOT need to remain anonymous. I have never tried any anonymity. I don’t need it.
Your threats are essentially nothing more than the last creaks and cracks of a quickly sinking ship. And that is something that I find to be a positive. Not a negative.
Your threats are of no importance to me because they are clearly coming from a very sick and disturbed individual. You clearly are angry that it’s so easy to smite a violent criminal like Jim Wiedmann, because it makes you realize how easily you can be destroyed. It does not surprise me, however because Roissy is a coward at heart like all violent abusive criminals….and so are you.
Your cowardice is evident. So is Roissy’s. But at least HE never attempted to directly threaten me. Maybe there ARE far more mentally disturbed individuals than him that are the “norm”. Either way….you have fueled my (new) quest to put a stop to this and all men and women who take part in this sort of behavior.
I have never failed at anything in my life. I don’t intend to start now. Thank you for giving me the energy and strength to realize just how truly important these issues are and how important it is to stop people like you and Roissy and any other abusive and violent person…..before it’s too late for them.
Have a Good Day, Sir
“desi fpua macaca bitch” – We’re not comparing an “unattractive” man with a “boring” job in his 40’s with an “attractive” woman in her 20’s. We are comparing an obviously disturbed, obsessive, stalkerish, no boobs, 30+ woman, WITH an illegitimate kid full of criminal DNA, and who has admitted to being a very superficial person, with a 40 year old, successful, smart, tall, white man in DC. Roissy has a very good job if that is in fact him. What’s your job desi? Curry cook?
Get with the fucking program, dot face. Even those who would fuck and chuck Lady Raine would never “Date” her.
Now that I know that “Jack” and “Jeff” are INDEED the same person (IP addy) I’ll just address THIS particular personality from now on.
First of all, do not insult Desi because last I checked….she has done nothing to you and nothing to Roissy and therefore your “hate” on her is completely unfounded. She is simply educated enough to see a stone-cold coward when one rears it’s ugly head.
Considering that everything thus far you have said about me is entirely false, I have to assume that you are wildly and randomly lashing out at any and all women in the world. First, I am not “in my 30′s”….I just turned 29 very recently.
I am very happy with both my body and my face and if you are want to “upset” me, you may want to consider a different approach (note how little that did to chink my armor in the past and learn from that).
Also there is no such thing as a child being “born a criminal”. There is no such thing as “criminal DNA”. The old belief that (for example) a Serial Killer has a specific chromosome that makes them be “Born a Criminal” or “Born a Killer” was long ago discarded as “junk science” and is completely unfounded. My son’s father was an abusive coward certainly….but it’s rare that if a child NEVER spends ANY time with the parent that is abusive…..that they will grow up to be anything but “normal adults”. My son has never seen nor experience any abuse or violence and therefore his chances of being abusive because of his “father” are very very slim. That is the only way a child can be “born a criminal” is if they are RAISED in an abusive and criminal environment which nurtures and grows any “abusive” tendencies the child may have.
I also have only ever had ONE long term relationship that I would consider “bad” with a “bad choice of man”. That is obviously my son’s father. I have had many successful long term relationships and am still close friends with nearly all of my exes. I don’t “hate men”, I very much enjoy them. I have not been oppressed or mistreated by men in general in my life and I’m very grateful for that. I suspect that is another thing that makes you so angry. That I had a bad experience 7 years ago, walked away from it, and moved on unscathed without becoming violent, hateful, or against “men”. You clearly are jealous of that fact and wish to retaliate against anyone who has been able to move past past “hurts” and live a healthy and happy life with healthy and happy relationships. Your seemingly deep emotional attachment to a man like Roissy and seething hatred toward a total stranger (like me) pretty much PROVES that point.
Instead of moving on and seeing those “hurts” for what they are: Just one person who wasn’t such a great guy/girl……you have decided that it’s far easier to seek revenge, violence, and hatred because you feel that somehow this will alleviate your pain. It will not. You are essentially starving your body and mind of “good” and feeding it full of rancid drink and food that tastes like dust in your mouth and does nothing to satisfy your hunger/thirst for “something to stop the pain”. That actually makes me feel REAL empathy for you.
Back to the business as hand…..Anyone who has read at Roissy can at LEAST surmise that he’s clearly a VERY disturbed individual and is likely to violently assault someone in his lifetime. It is likely he already has.
That alone is what makes him “unsuccessful” and “undateable” by virtually ANY sane person’s standards. He seems to be an average guy with average income and an average job. Therefore, he clearly CHOOSES his path of violence, hatred, and abuse because he wants to….not because he “needs” to.
He is certainly educated enough to know that there is plenty of counseling available to him, but has chosen to discard it. That tells me that even if he is educated….he is not very intelligent. It also tells me that he hates himself and doesn’t feel that he is worth improving. That makes me very sad for him.
There are people in this world who are NOT as educated and “middle class” as Denise, myself, or even Roissy who do NOT have access to the tools they need…..and people who DO have access and not only throw it away….but INTENTIONALLY try to harm others and convince others to be filled with hatred like them are a very serious threat to people who are truly looking for help and answers….and may be sucked in by this “much easier” hatred and abuse that Roissy preaches.
To me, it is the same as a doctor who puts their patients “under” and then rapes/assaults them. Roissy essentially does the same thing. He makes SURE he is seen as an “advisor” on women. He makes SURE that he is seen as a “teacher” and even a “guru”. He states any and ALL advice as “Rules, Techniques, and Maxims” and therefore he is using his self-proclaimed position to prey on weak and desperate men who are seeking genuine help and advice.
That is one of the most demented crimes I can think of. It is also the same as a Drug Company that pushes a new drug on people….and then it kills thousands because they did not research and handle the drug properly before releasing it to people who look to and depend on them to know better. Do you think those drug companies are excused? No, they are prosecuted as Criminals. Same as my “doctor/patient” example. Roissy and his “Teachings” are no different.
I would dedicate my life to stopping Criminals like those from harming large masses of people (Cults, Hate Groups, Gender Violence, etc) if I could, but its starting to look like here is as good a place to start as any.
OH, and I see you made it a point to mention that Roissy is a “white man” under your list of “things that are awesome about Roissy”. Do you mistakenly think that being White makes him somehow LESS of a criminal? I am also White and moments like these make me very ashamed to be White (because I am assuming you are also White).
I wish at the very least….that your insults about me were creative or even close to the truth so that you could at least feel like you accomplished something today. However, I suspect that you are quite accustomed to accomplishing nothing….and blaming someone else for it. It explains why you support a Violent Criminal of the worst kind like James Wiedmann.
Thanks yet AGAIN for making my desire to stop people like him and you so much greater.
OK henceforth all 30+ instructors, 60+ workshop assistants, 15+ full-time staff and contractors who live around the world will be required to submit to me, in writing, a complete list of people about whom they have directed a social politeness such as “we should have a beer”. This should be updated on a daily basis.
All names should be accompanied with a full breakdown of their political and social views, past and present.
Since this is common practice in most corporations, I’m surprised it’s taken me so long to understand the necessity of this.
I personally will take a break from having a life so that I can read every dating-related blog on the net so that I can be familiar with all of them, including random guys I’ve probably never interacted with and who have no relationship to Love Systems and say offensive things.
Or we can just be like normal people — after Denise tried to spam my blog 38 times (!) with posts about skinheads (!) someone else actually went to the trouble of quoting certain of Roissy’s statements. I had no problem with disagreeing with those statements, publicly.
See comments here:
http://therealsavoy.blogspot.com/2009/12/crazy-lady-returns.html
Either Denise is spectacularly unable to engage with anyone who she isn’t assured will agree with her 100% or she is deliberately trying to court drama. Any normal person who genuinely wanted my reaction to something would do exactly what other commenters did: provide the specific thing you want a reaction to and then ask me for my reaction. Is that so hard?
As for it being a private matter, just a reminder, I did not initiate the tiger/elin example, but i think it’s a good one for this discussion.
Ah – I hadn’t read through this increasingly LONG thread in its entirety… But, I was probably imparting some of my feelings about celebrity status in the US (especially b/c I hear about Tiger everyday on the morning news).
Actually – that is a good question – is adultery a crime anywhere in the US anymore? I think it was at one time. Something to be researched.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery#Criminal_penalties
“In the United States, laws vary from state to state. In those states where adultery is still on the statute book (although rarely prosecuted), penalties vary from life sentence (Michigan)[37], to a fine of $10 (Maryland), to a Class I felony (Wisconsin)”
I learned something new. Shame its not uniform law throughout the country, though.
This is tangential, but I do know that there are still more than 10 US states in which it is illegal to sell or buy a vibrator for sexual use (and i’m not sure about the legality of using them in those states), which I think is ridiculous.
I’d like to ask you, whats your take on pornography? Just open ended, respond however you wish.
I see violence as anything that intentionally causes significant harm to someone, whether that is emotional, verbal, psychological, physical, or sexual.
This is where things get a little hazy. How do you quantify harm? Especially emotional, verbal, psychological, or sexual harm? Physical is probably the easiest (ie: I broke my leg), but even then people have varying thresholds for pain. If I give my significant other an “angry look”, does that constitute as “violence”…? I certainly intended to do it, and maybe she felt some emotional abuse. But really, how do you quantify it?
I guess what I’m concerned with is expanding the use of the word violence (a word with an emotional stigma to it) and then it being used politically (ie: government intervention). I think I saw somewhere you are in favor of increasing government intervention in personal lives (correct me if I’m wrong). That’s something I believe people should hold themselves accountable for, and in turn, handle on their own. I know – wishful thinking, but I don’t think increased government reach is going to solve much.
My understanding is that she hit and broke his car window with the golf club and that his injuries were from his car crash not from the golf club and not that she actually hit him. What is your understanding? And, am I mistaken?
http://www.lvrj.com/sports/ex-coach-sheds-light-on-woods-80885922.html
Of course – this is speculation on my part. Nothing has been confirmed as of yet, and probably never will. But Elin actually causing physical harm to Tiger was my inclination from the get-go. That is, a top tier professional athlete crashing a car and then disappearing visibly/publicly for a couple months is not the normal result of a “Hey honey, I cheated on you” argument. Speculation, of course, but I think you get my point.
So, I do see B as an abuser and I do see A as a victim. Regardless of gender. And, I do think that if B harms A enough, it is understandable that A might slug B one day.
…but it might help you understand why I view Elin’s response as understandable
I guess I should clarify, I agree her reaction is understandable, but if she caused physical harm to Tiger, do you think she should be prosecuted legally? Sure, we understand WHY she went into a rage, but it doesn’t justify physical violence (or, at the VERY minimum, acting in an extremely physically threatening manner). Do you think if the genders were reversed the physically violent/threatening male would be free, that is, not in jail? Especially given the public nature of this incident?
Because you do not seem to get the very real risk of STDs and what that means.
What gave you that idea? I never once claimed my ambivalence to STDs in an infidelity situation. We just differ on our use of the word “violence” …
I’m going to borrow a phrase from Gwallan – to be cheated on can rape your identity and soul.
There we go again, using words in a manner that cheapens its primary definition. (I’ll make a sidenote, that I know very well how devastating being cheated on can be. I still wouldn’t call it rape.)
Rape, as it is used primarily in our Western culture is defined as “The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.”
I’m not outraged and disturbed bc you don’t agree with me but because you seem to not understand the egregious harm of cheating.
Have you been cheated on? I’ve expressed I have been, granted not under the pretense of marriage, but that doesn’t lessen the pain I felt.
Actually knowingly infecting someone with AIDS IS a crime.
I guess I was operating under the assumption that MOST people do not purposely infect others with AIDS. But yes, that is a crime.
“Before you get outraged and disturbed, ask yourself > Does that mean I agree with infidelity or the transmission of STDs?”
You misunderstood me a little. I’ll rephrase.
Before you jump to any conclusions > Does that mean I agree with infidelity or the transmission of STDs?
But you do not seem to understand the physical health aspects of it.
I do. I just don’t think it is “violence” in the typical definition of the word.
LR EDIT: Mr. M, I agree with the confusion in the comments section of “Exposed” and also “Profiling VS Game” so I added a post today for “Questions, Comments, and Debate” that’s directed at me and/or Denise in an attempt to make it less confusing the readers, commentors, and even me.
And I also want to remind you, that people who intentionally pass STDs on to other people ARE prosecuted as Criminals and have even been charged with actual Murder for that act alone. I’m not trying to be an ass, but it IS considered a “violent crime” in a Court of Law and also a “willful and intentional” one. If tiger DID have unprotected sex intentionally…..then had sex with his wife intentionally WITHOUT having been tested and cleared for STD’s then there ARE courts in this country who would, indeed, convict him on that alone.
Just something to consider when you two are debating your “views” on what violence is/is not.
And since you said that the thread is too long (and I agree) women DO contract AIDS/HIV and some other STD’s TWICE as easily as men do and her baby IS at a very serious risk BECAUSE of Tiger’s willfull and intentional cheating. No man would intentionally endanger a newborn baby and his wife if he was NOT a “violent and negligent” man.
Dear Mr. Savoy–
You claim to “not have time” nor care enough to “know about” the many PUA sites misusing “Game” as you allege and yet you DO have time to post scathingly about ME personally who has NEVER contacted you, had NO knowledge of you, and has NEVER commented on your blog or even visited it before you felt free to personally attack me and make completely false accusations about me.
That sort of PROVES that you DO have time to insult and attempt to discredit me based on NO conversations, previous knowledge of me, or even a passing knowledge of what my “beliefs” ARE. How can you honestly try to allege that you are NOT too busy to write an ad-hominem post about a woman who has NEVER mentioned you or “spammed you”…..and yet you somehow DON’T have time to know about the very men and THEIR beliefs that are teaching Game??
Everything about your defense not only shows the OPPOSITE of what you have already done and said….but is so irresponsible that it’s almost “retarded”.
What happens when major (and very “busy”) Drug Company sells a drug that saved 10,000 lives, but ruined/ended the lives 1,000 people by just “not realizing that the drug could do that” because the company has “too many employees” and “too much to do”????
I’ll tell you what happens, they are slapped with a MAJOR lawsuit and subjected to Criminal Charges. Your ridiculous argument that “If I turn a blind eye to men/groups misusing what I teach, then it doesn’t exist” is something that doesn’t even hold water in a Court of Law by a company that really IS too large and too busy to “notice and address” such things.
They call those companies “Willfully Negligent” and are almost ALWAYS held Criminally, Medically, and Legally responsible for that attitude and those actions.
You cannot WORK for a company that TEACHES these brainwashing methods to men and then turn your back on them when they use it for evil or when they themselves have their lives destroyed BECAUSE of their belief in you and your “professional advice”. This is considered a CRIME in the United States and is also considered “amoral” and “obviously negligent” by ANY sane and educated person’s standards.
It seems to me that you want to BE the Authority on Game…..without being responsible for what is done with what you teach, sell, and provide. This has NEVER been acceptable by ANY credible business and trying to pretend otherwise just makes you look foolish.
What also amazes me is that you seem to consider Denise’s posting of comments that I would imagine are legit links, questions, or comments and call it “SPAM” or “Stalking”. An blogger/businessman knows that opinions and questions are important for you to remain objective and honest as a blogger….and also as a Salesmen of whatever you are selling. Intentionally censoring any comments or questions from another Professional that make you look “bad” would be considered sleazy by virtually ANYONE’s standards and further hurts your credibility as a blogger and as a “businessman”.
Denise commented and asked you questions because she wants to believe that you are really NOT aware of these issues and would handle them in a responsible matter if you DID know about them. She was giving you a chance to redeem yourself and you not only censored her, but you publicly MOCKED her and then attacked ME who has never mentioned your name at ALL before this day. How do you suppose that makes your credibility look, when you could have just ANSWERED her questions and maybe even perused the info she provided you with? Bad, that’s how.
She didn’t want to automatically lump you in with guys like Roissy and sites like The Spearhead, but you just proved to me and probably everyone else reading here how UNPROFESSIONAL, UNcredible, NEGLIGENT, and irresponsible you really are. Not just to the men BUYING what I will now call “snake oil” (since you have proved that you clearly do not understand how a credible business functions, nor do you care) but also the women who are being ABUSED because of the “goods” you are selling.
Why not just start selling candy with razor blades inside of them to children and NOT putting a warning label on it? And then go as far as to say indignantly “WELL. I CERTAINLY can NOT be expected to keep track of what my 200 employees are PUTTING in the candy or what happens to the innocent people who are HURT by it. I’m just the Salesmen!”
So, then who IS responsible for your company since it CLEARLY is not you?
What team DO you have to address these sorts of issues and correct problems before they harm the men and women who are victims of your Snake Oil?
What “professional degrees” in Psychology and the Human Mind do you have to be teaching men how to “fiddle” with a woman’s mind to suit his needs???
I’d genuinely like to know.
And since you are TOO BUSY to worry about those things but NOT too busy to post slander and hatred about ME (whom has never addressed you, mentioned you, or even read your blog) and NOT too busy to post slander about Denise instead of just ANSWERING her questions honestly….
Now I WILL name you as what you are and that’s a “Snake Oil Salesmen” of the worst kind.
I WILL now use your name and company’s name now along side of Roissy’s, The Spearhead, Mystery, and others who are clearly just as dismissive of your responsibilities to the men who trust and believe in them as YOU have proven yourself to be.
(And for the record, I believe Denise’s accusation that you are “lying” about your connections to Roissy is because she apparently saw that a blogger “Mr. M” is an employee of yours??? I do not know if that is true or not and I don’t know if Mr. M or you would admit it even if it WAS true, but your apparent RAGE at her asking you such a thing followed by refusing to answer her questions certainly leads me to believe that you ARE being dishonest and dismissive intentionally to cover some sleaze of your own.)
Denise -
I’ve been wondering about why I have this bias. I can only guess and come up with these hypotheses:
1. I may think this because I may have an idea of men being bigger and stronger and able to tolerate a few blows from a smaller, less strong woman. HOWEVER, I am NOT condoning it. I’m just trying to honestly explore why I believe or react to these two situations differently.
2. I have been taught my whole life that women and girls should not be hit by anyone, ever. I have also been taught that about men, HOWEVER, I am also surrounded by a culture in which there is boxing, wrestling, football, hockey, rugby, etc. where men regularly do hit each other. AGAIN, I’m not condoning it; I’m trying to understand why there is something less egregious in my undertanding of men being hit than women being hit.
You need to reevaluate those biases. It is the basis of the one-sided domestic violence industry we see in the States. Further, what stops a woman (or anyone) from equalizing the size-gap with a weapon? Knife, gun, car, etc.
Citing competitive sports as a basis for your bias is…well, its pretty lackluster. I love sports, and play/watch them regularly still, does that equate me to being okay being slugged by another guy/girl? …
Lady Raine, whoa….the only “rage” here is yours. I have no real idea who you are and have certainly never accused you of anything. I have no idea who you’re confusing me with, nor does it really matter.
Internet flame wars are lame.
My last comment to Denise was satirical. I would have thought that was obvious.
Have a great day everyone
LR EDIT: Actually I have no knowledge of you to be “enraged” until your dismissive comments and mockery of Denise who is a Professional in the field on what you are selling and your refusal to answer anything anyone asks you. Even if it is another Professional interested in better understanding your take on what you provide. That looks “suspicious” to anyone with common sense in their head and furthermore I don’t know what about a person asking a businessman about what he is selling would be considered a “flame war”.
m- please compare in your own post how you want to hold Elin responsible for Tiger crashing his car and you seem to want to call that violence – but you do not wan to call it violence when someone infects someone else with an STD, intentionally or not.
Have i misunderstood you?
this is how i see cheating as violence:
it’s alot like drunk driving. everyone knows the risks of drunk driving. yet people still do it. the results can be as harmless as bad driving or as harmful as several deaths.
cheating is the same. especially if the cheating includes unprotected sex. we all know the risks, yet people still do it. the results can be as physically harmless as being lucky enough to have not given an STD to someone and as harmful as a deadly disease.
So, yes it’s violence.
On the question of defining “harm”: I agree, a physical injury is clearly easier to understand and agree upon.
However, insurance carriers (particularly workers comp and disability insurance) as well as courts have for decades understood that there are such things as:
emotional and psychological trauma
psychiatric injury
pain and suffering
loss of consortium
etc
and have accepted claims based on these things because medically and psychologically all of these can and often do lead to other more concrete physical ailments which are no less real than a broken leg – and even if they do not lead to other physical ailments, they are in and of themselves – real and can be disabling.
So, while it’s not as easily understood as a broken leg, it is no less real.
Denise
Ummm, did he answer ANYTHING? Because I’m pretty sure he just said a big “FUCK YOU” both to the men who buy his poison and to the people who have been hurt by it.
It’s clear that Savoy has ghost-writers and does not even POST the material under his name, let alone read it, the comments, or the questions.
What business is allowed to FUNCTION like this??? And why have they not been reported?
Sooooo, basically gentlemen the man who sells you this “info” does NOT care if you misuse it, does NOT care if it HARMS you personally, does NOT care if it harms the women you Game, and clearly does NOT care if you turn into an actual “criminal” BECAUSE of the information he is selling you. Oh, good. Now we have another Wal-Mart and Disney Corporation type attitude by yet another negligent and dismissive Salesmen who clearly isn’t educated to teach or even aware of the most basic principles of “honest business”.
Can we get a photo of Savoy and put him next to the meaning of “Burying your head in the sand?”
fyi: for all:
while wikipedia is interesting and often has good info, it should not be used as a source.
it can be changed easily and is not permitted as a credible source in journalism or publishing for that reason.
d
LR EDIT: Thank God you said this, Denise because I kept thinking that I was the only person on earth that considers Wikipedia to be “Mass Opinion” and nothing more for many things. That’s one of the reasons Obsidians arguments were so “far fetched” to me because he kept quoting opinion-based sources like Wikipedia and others.
Have i misunderstood you?
Yes – I wanted to isolate her actions as being violent and/or threatening. Those being:
1) Physically harming Tiger by bashing out 2 teeth (speculation per article I linked)
or
2) Physically threatening Tiger by wielding a golf club (this is more domestic violence)
I don’t think crashing a car, in and of itself, is violent, for the most part.
I completely agree that ALL bias needs to be explored.
by men and women.
I’m not saying that is the entire story. I think that exploring one’s biases is a process.
Also, when you talk about equalizing size with weapons, you’re not comparing apples to apples.
I am trying to compare apples to apples in an effort to be intellectually honest.
but since you opened the door, how is a man’s larger size and strength as compared to a woman’s not a serious disadvantage for her in many ways?
Again, i see PUA not truly helping men and women ( or even just men) by trying to level the playing field – but by doing all it can in many unethical ways to give men POWER OVER women.
and THAT is what I and many others have a serious serious problem with.
Don’t you think it would be a much healthier world if we all worked to create respect, equality, intelligence about facts like STD risks, sexual intelligence and CREDIBLE psychological intelligence about what comprises health relationships or what “women want”???
Also – i do not know where you got the impression that i support more government intervention in people’s lives.
I do believe government has certain responsibilities to its citizenry such as I do believe the US needs a single payer public health plan as 5 other capitalist nations currently have and manage to cover all citizens while spending less per capita.
although I am anti-war in theory I do realize that we need a military and it’s unrealistic and unwise not to have one.
i also believe the democratic process is important though I think ours has been tragically corrupted by the influence of coporate lobbies.
But, I fully support gay marriage and I don’t see how the govt has any right to tell anyone who they can love, sleep with, marry or parent with.
I also fully support abortion rights.
I also fully support anyone’s right to purchase and use sex toys a long as they are used consensually, harming no one and not with children.
I also fully support free speech, except when that speech is hate speech.
d
Significant observation:
LR and I and Desi FPUA and many other women ARE really wanting to listen to men and understand why they are attracted to PUA and MRA – both of which to varying degrees provide men with:
1. incorrect information about what women want (that suspisciously results in justifying abusive behavior).
and
2. methods which we view as seriously unethical to – NOT JUST LEVEL the playing field – BUT TO ENSURE male dominance in dating and relating.
We are endeavoring to have an honest discussion so we can all learn, find common ground and perhaps correct the misinformation, stop the unethical practices which do result in victimization of women and men – and perhaps most important to understand on all sides – what real experiences, feelings, thoughts, needs, traumas, societal conditions, etc – drive men to seek out dominance or unethical means to justify dominance.
We also seek to look critically and fairly at feminism.
Alot of us have contributed siginficatly to this important discussion.
YET, Nick Savoy, who runs a company that should be concerned with these things has chosen to dismiss the concerns raised with him and those who raise those concerns.
I say give him one more chance. Maybe he doesn’t realize how serious this actually is.
So, Nick, ifyou’re reading this, you have one more chance to respond seriusly to our legitimate concerns.
Denise
Denise–
I agree with all you just said. Courts DO recognize these things as “crime” for a reason. They are aware that just because violence doesn’t always present in an actual physical and “easy to see” form, does not mean it doesn’t exist. It does and that’s where the very meaning of “passive aggressive” control, violence, and abuse COMES from.
It is JUST as dangerous and JUST as violent as the criminals and crimes that are simple “physical assaults and attacks”.
(I thought I’d remind you that you didn’t address the question about your “views on pornography”, just sex toys.)
My own view on pornography is pretty clear. Pornography is a personal choice, it can be used to enhance a person’s sex life, a masturbatory tool, and even to learn some new sexual tips and trips. I feel that Pornography in and of itself being “sexually graphic” is NOT “abuse” or violence.
HOWEVER….I think that Pornography that contains ‘hate’ and abuse of women should NOT be legal to be sold. Neither should the videos that are named things like “Barely Legal” or “Just 18″ because they often glorify and depict women and/or men that LOOK to BE minors, which to me is the same as encouraging sexual abuse of children….and even making a taste for “young girls” seem acceptable and “normal”. It is not.
I also think that Pornographers should NOT be allowed to have videos that romanticize rape fantasies or sexually violent abuse of women, men, or children. I also think the laws regarding where and how that Pornography is available to be viewed, bought, and sold.
Pornographers should NEVER be allowed to “incite violence” against ANY other person by romanticizing it in their content in ANY WAY and I think they should be prosecuted the same as a Cult Leader or a Hate Group would be for doing the same.
Pornography is for mature adults who have BOTH consented to viewing, enjoying, and taking part in sex and “sex related” novelties such as porn and toys and therefore should ONLY contain depictions of exactly that: ADULT MAN + ADULT WOMAN + CONSENT= MATURE, FUN, ADULT SEX AND FANTASIES. (And of course ADULT MAN+ADULT MAN or ADULT WOMAN+ ADULT WOMAN). Anything else SHOULD be considered a crime and handled as one.
(And the most disturbing part about “Barely Legal” and Rape fantasy porn is that it is JUST as easy for a child to get their hands on as softcore or “traditional” pornography, which is giving our children and young adults an impression that those things are acceptable, normal, and healthy and also are being watched by minors who are NOT old enough to understand that people who STAR in the porno ARE just actors and actresses that are there being paid by a company by their own free will. It still amazes me how people dismiss things like that about the Pornography and Adult Entertainment.)
but since you opened the door, how is a man’s larger size and strength as compared to a woman’s not a serious disadvantage for her in many ways?
I tend to view a man’s perceived physical domination as being a disadvantage, actually. Sure – I could probably beat the shit out of 90% of women no problem. Am I going to? No. But, it is BECAUSE of this discrepancy in size/strength that the government prosecutes men much more rigorously. Its the same line of thinking that, well men are more dangerous b/c they are men that fuels the one-sided DV industry. The fact that I could be presumed “dangerous” because I’m male.
And in all honesty, most people now-a-days live such an inactive and non-threatening suburban lifestyle that size/strength is never really called upon. Strength is being increasingly devalued as we move away from an industrial (less labor intensive) focus, except for being cosmetic, of course.
Also – i do not know where you got the impression that i support more government intervention in people’s lives.
It was this quote –
“I’ve been involved in grassroots efforts in the US to get legislation passed to make workplace bullying unlawful, but there are powerful lobbies against it.”
such as I do believe the US needs a single payer public health plan as 5 other capitalist nations currently have and manage to cover all citizens while spending less per capita.
I think the US needs to provide preventative health care instead of wasting so much $ on symptomatic care. I also distrust the government to run such a public health plan in a fair/equal manner.
Denise -
LR and I and Desi FPUA and many other women ARE really wanting to listen to men and understand why they are attracted to PUA and MRA – both of which to varying degrees provide men with:
They are attracted because it works. Simple as that. Condition women not to like bad boys, or high status (perceived or not) and you will see game die off (or, inversely, to like beta-provider men).
Simple. As. That.
As for MRA -
MRA wouldn’t exist if people felt the government/media/society acted on a completely fair basis – from legislation, convictions, sentencing, portrayal of the sexes, etc etc.
There’s a reason it exists; its because men feel slighted.
Mr M said:
“They are attracted because it works. Simple as that. Condition women not to like bad boys, or high status (perceived or not) and you will see game die off (or, inversely, to like beta-provider men).
Simple. As. That.”
Wow, that is one of the most negligent and horrible things I have ever heard come from your mouth. That’s like saying to a victim of Cult Brainwashing “Well don’t be so stupid as to get brainwashed in the first place and we will stop doing it to you, then.” (Plus, she DOESN’T “like it”. You have behaviorally conditioned and BRAINWASHED her into acting like she likes it so that you do NOT mentally abuse her further.)
That is truly an offensive and abusive thing to say. There are ALOT of things that “work” and do what they promise. They are STILL Criminal Offenses and sometimes Fatal Choices. That’s like saying “Well if you hadn’t gone to sleep, you’d have never been robbed….so learn to NOT sleep” or “Well if you hadn’t made me so angry….I wouldn’t have had to HIT YOU.”
Your speech right there is actually what would indicate to a Psychological Professional that you could be a mental abuser and possibly be a physically abusive person as well. If you don’t see what is wrong with your statement then those Professionals would be correct, in my opinion.
Cocaine does what it promises: It gives you energy, it gives you a feeling of power, it alleviates your fatigue, and may even give you an edge at your job! That doesn’t change the fact that it is illegal, dangerous, and sometimes fatal.
Rape does what it promises: It gets you laid. It gets you off. It makes you feel good. That doesn’t change that it’s amoral, criminal, violent, demented, and abusive.
Cults do what they promise: They give you food, shelter, friendship, a job, a religion, and even a direction in life. It doesn’t change the fact that you were brainwashed, tricked and lied to nor does it change the fact that the cult wishes to control you, own you, abuse you, commit violence to you and others, and is CRIMINAL.
Murder does what it promises: It gets rid of your enemies, it gives you a sense of power, it keeps you in control, and it might even make you feel good. But that doesn’t change the fact that it is WRONG, illegal, criminal, violent, demented, sick, abhorrent, and unfair to the loved ones and family of your victims.
For a moment, I thought MAYBE you weren’t yet another PUA abusing women….now with that comment I see that you are exactly that.
If you cannot see what is WRONG on EVERY LEVEL with your statement then you need to seek professional counseling because sane men and women do NOT believe or practice those things.
m- you’re still missing our points:
you believe “it works”.
we do not agree with you on what “it” is and on what “works” means.
IT: you inaccurately define “it” as giving women “what they want”.
We have told you repeatedly that:
1. PUA is WRONG about what women want
and
2. “it” only seems to “work” because it is using unethical mind control techniques.
therefore PUA only “works” as well as torture “works” – sure you get an answer for the poor person who will say anything to make the torture stop, but is the answer credible, true, and real? No, it is not.
as far as “works”:
Our other problem with PUA is that there is a huge emphasis on men sleeping with as many as women as possible with no regard for women’s boundaries, rights, feelings, needs, desires, or legitimate fears AND with a severe lack of ethics.
furthermore, there is a language used by men that is hateful towards women and this dangerously leads men to believe that such language and methods are healthy, acceptable, ethical, and normal…
and they are NOT.
d
LR EDIT: Exactly. This is yet ANOTHER PUA like Obsidian and Savoy who SAY that they do NOT use “negative Game” but then openly condone using brainwashing techniques because “it works”???
Thus far, from what I have seen and heard….PUA’s in general really ARE all willfully brainwashing and abusing women without remorse just like they have been accused of.
Not ONE has admitted that it IS brainwashing. Not ONE has admitted is IS abusive. And not ONE has so much as alluded to being remorseful of their actions.
The new PUA Slogan should be: BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!
MR M said:“As for MRA -
MRA wouldn’t exist if people felt the government/media/society acted on a completely fair basis – from legislation, convictions, sentencing, portrayal of the sexes, etc etc.
There’s a reason it exists; its because men feel slighted.”
AND THERE IT IS. The big dismissal of men’s behavior. Well, then I guess Denise and I should just change our opinion and say that those Revenge Feminists are well within their right to abuse, manipulate, use, and lie to men ALL THEY WANT because after all…. they feel they have been slighted (and probably have been just like MRAs).
You past two statements really do not help ME to see ANY PUA in a more favorable light than: You all admit it’s abusive. You admit its intentionally manipulative. You admit that you do not CARE whom it hurts. You admit that you do not CARE how the woman feels. And you admit that as long as Misogynists and Abusers have a good reason to act that way….it’s acceptable.
That seems to be the EXACT behavior and opinion of each and every PUA who has been asked. The amazing part is that those answers come from the PUA’s who say that they are NOT abusive and only use “positive Game”.
The way Mr. M has resorted to the classic “PUA answer” tells me that these men HAVE been brainwashed because their answers after a long discussion seem to ALWAYS regress right back into
“I don’t care who it hurts”
“All I care about is power”
“You women were asking for it”
All three are ABUSE.
Therefore, I stick to my original theory that ALL PUA’s are willfully and intentionally brainwashing and abusing the women they come into contact with it and show NO remorse for their actions. Because I have yet to speak or see even ONE that denounces this behavior or even feels remorse for it.
and the same is true of revenge feminists.
i’m not justifyinjg or defending them , but again if you’re going to participate in this discussion, i AM ASKING YOU AGAIN to do so in an intellectually honest manner.
Can we agree that both feminism and men’s rights groups (including the more extreme versions of each) exist because both women and men have BOTH felt victimized and unfairly treated?
therefore it goes back to what LR has aptly said:
THIS IS A HUMAN PROBLEM.
and to what I have said: it’s not a competition over who has been more victimized.
SO, if we can agree on the above, what is the next step?
why don’t we work together to UNDERSTAND why men and women feel these ways, apply critical thinking, fairness, mutuality, credible psychological knowledge, credible legal and medical knowledge, and anything else we can use that is credible and mutual to solve these problems?
i believe that can be done, and frankly I’m excited about it.
d
I don’t see how I’m a “PUA” – explain?
I don’t see how me wanting equal/fairness equates me as dismissive of behavior? – explain?
We have told you repeatedly that:
1. PUA is WRONG about what women want
Hm. That’s pretty blanket statement. Do you speak for all women? My argument still remains that it produces results and that’s why men find it attractive.
If being a beta-provider produced results the men would flock there.
Relax on the “omg you bad PUA abuser” language.
2. “it” only seems to “work” because it is using unethical mind control techniques.
I’ve stated before, albeit not here, that I view game/MRA solely as a reaffirmation that I need to be, can be, and should be, more “masculine.” Think ala Dave in Hawaii, who, I think, uses game to its best potential (I think LR disagrees, but I see how he has his wife’s best interests at heart).
So – yeah – relax on how you lump PUA/GAME/MRA into one evil bad group.
SO, if we can agree on the above, what is the next step?
I’d like to see an alteration to the current legal system with respect to: marriage, divorce, child support/alimony, child custody, domestic violence arrest and subsequent treatment.
I’m fine with the current sexual market personally – though I don’t think it promotes healthy 2 parent families.
LR EDIT: I sincerely hope your “changes” that you’d like to see don’t involve victimizing more women and involve men having even LESS responsibility as parents and husbands than they already do, because that is the normal response from a Misogynist.
Mr M–
We truly DO want to see what is at the core of the use of manipulation and “Game” and see ANYTHING other than the brainwashing and abuse.
But you excusing misogyny and mental abuse is the same as agreeing with it.
I do not excuse women who gain unjust alimony, who gold dig, who use men, who prey on their needs…..I don’t care HOW oppressed those women have been. There is STILL NO EXCUSE.
Can you not see why we see these constant excuses as evidence of our beliefs about Seduction Techniques and Game?
I do NOT see how brainwashing is “leveling the playing field” in any way. It’s like intentionally putting land mines, spike strips, and wet playing conditions on ONLY ONE SIDE OF THE FIELD.
Would you consider THAT “fair play”? NO. It’s called “winning by any means necessary” which is NOT a part of a healthy and loving relationship.
As for my viewpoint on Dave from Hawaii Gaming his wife: He is NOT supposed to decide what is and is not good for her. That is control. He is guilty of PRETENDING to be someone else. He is guilty of brainwashing his wife. He is guilty of HIDING the things that his wife doesn’t like about him (and may be very valid complaints) by TRAINING HER LIKE A DOG to NOT be angry about those things anymore because she doesn’t want to upset him and make him treat her badly even MORE.
These are methods that abusers use to keep their victims in line. They beat them down slowly….they take away their self-esteem, they isolate them from friends, family, and reality….and make the victim feel as if their only choice is to “walk on eggshells and do what he asks” OR “be beaten/abused again”.
That is NOT a normal and healthy relationship. It is an abusive one. It is a manipulative one. And it is an amoral one.
I don’t see how me wanting equal/fairness equates me as dismissive of behavior? – explain?
Neither Misogynists and MRA’s nor Revenge/Militant Feminist want EQUAL treatment. They want to be IN CONTROL. They want to be superior. And they want to do those things by any means necessary and ALSO by victimizing other men or women.
How is an MRA disrespecting and abusing women creating equality? It doesn’t because they have to abuse women and create MORE victims to do it. Therefore it is the OPPOSITE of equality.
How is a Revenge Feminist emasculating and criminalizing men creating equality? It doesn’t because they have to abuse men and create MORE victims to do it. Therefore it is the OPPOSITE of wanting equality.
Both utilize using MORE ABUSE to oppress their victims. How does that ALLEVIATE Oppression? How does that ALLEVIATE unfairness? Who is looking out for the victims of of those groups? Why don’t their VICTIMS deserve equality and freedom from oppression?
In my eyes, the answer is clear. Both groups wish to be superior and are willing to become abusers and victimize other people to achieve it.
There is no clearer meaning of “oppression, abuse, and inequality” than that.
m- in the interest of saving my fingers from falling off, i’m going to ask you and others to describe BEHAVIOR that men and women have/do and feelings that men AND women have – and to do your best to be intellectually honest and make complete observations about BOTH men and women.
so far, you keep trying to justify PUA and MRA because men feel slighted.
we’ve told you that we hear you and want to learn more about that. We’ve also told you that women feel slighted.
So: respond to this question: given that both men and women:
feel slighted
feel and have been victimized
etc
what should we then do about this?
AND – you also noted that Elin wielding a golf clug at tiger would be abusive (I don’t remember if you also said this was violent) – but you state that this wold be physically intimidating.
Okay – now, PLEASE – extrapolate your understanding of this situation to how women often feel physicall intimidated by men – especially when PUAs each last minute resistance (LMR) and use abusive language to describe women, lable women as “targets” and “prey”, seem to only care about male needs to “score” and sleep with as many women as possible, and….well, could go on and on and you’ve read enough of this discussion to know what i’m talking about.
I’m asking you to acknowledge that both PUA and MRA teach and encourage men to create the very same experiences in women that Elin’s gofl club attack on Tiger did only on a daily basis, in the form of unethical stealth covert attacks, and while obfuscating the truth of what they are really doing and what they KNOW they are doing.
ALSO: if you are not Mr. M, the LoveSystems teacher, then why do you use the same name as he does?
ALSO: I happen to have the same opinion of pornography that LR expressed, which is interesting b/c i think there are many varying opinions of porn among many people.
in any case, i will take my opinion of porn a step further and say that given the very varied and large porn markets for various fetishes, I think this is proof that PUA’s assumptions and assertions about what women want or even about what men want ARE MISTAKEN.
d
m- how many times do we have to tell you we do are trying NOT to lump you all into one bad evil group, but YOU want to buy roissy a drink – despite his hateful, violent, and misogynistic statements on his blog!
and, you read him regularly and post supportive and agreeing comments on his blog!
AND – to comment on what you said above and me and LR not opposing the revenge feminists on their blogs -
AGAIN – Please use logic and think rationally.
M= We are NOT EVEN ON THOSE revenge feminist blogs bc we find it offensive. we have voted with our feet (or fingers).
BUY YOU ARE ON roissy’s blog – ALOT – and you want to buy him a drink.
Do you see the difference? this is not rocket science.
you need to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges and you’re not doing that.
and spearhead and roissy say WOMEN are incapable of logic?
i’m not making a statement about all men: just you in this discussion.
it’s exhausting when you fail to use logic and think critically.
i’m not trying to be rude to you but i am very frustrated and exhausted and so i guess i have no tolerance for this from you today.
d
m- and do you want those things changed so there is truly fairness for men and women or do you want them changed so men have advantages over women?
because alot of the MRA stuff and roissy’s stuff asserts that women need to be put in their place, denied the right to votel, on their knees worshipping cock, raped as much as men want, etc.
you know this is true even better than i do. you’ve been in that world alot longer than i’ve even had awareness that it distrubingly exists.
AND – if you dont want to be lumped with all the bad evil puas and mras then why THE FUCK would you make yourself at home on blogs that say the hateful and violent things such as those above
and WHY THE FUCK would you want to buy r a drink???
what if LR and I said we wish we could hang out and have a good time and have a drink with – oh i don’t know – you see i’m not even aware enough of the revenge feminist world to be able to name someone here – b/c I DO NOT ASSOCIATE with them -
but i’ll choose that woman (and i don’t even know if she was fictional or real) from the world according to garp where she hated men so much blah blah blah -
ok so what if LR and I visited and posted and agreed with her site on a daily basis and did not challenge her when she said horrible and violent things about men and then we said we think she sounds like fun and we admire her and want to buy her a drink.
would you lump us in with her? damn straight you would. and with good reason.
AND: we’re not disagreeing on how to “use the world ‘violence’” -
we disagree on the definition – which is significantly different.
d
LR EDIT: Denise, “Biting Beaver” is an excellent example of a blogger and Revenge Feminist for future reference even though I’m still not convinced that her blog isn’t supposed to be a parody and an elaborate hoax
I completely agree with LR on dave from hawaii.
and i will add to it= not only is punishing with the goal of controlling behavior abusive but so is rewarding.
we are not dogs. we are all humans.
LR: Now I am going to add….to your add-on and point out what is obvious to me knowing the “Dave” story:
Dave says that he used to be a wimp, a pushover, a slave to his wife. Their marriage was not “good” and she was always angry, exasperated, or seemingly “uninterested” in him anymore.
Dave says that he used to bend to her will, do what she said, and practically worship her.
He says that once he became “totally different” and acted differently, used Game on her, negatively reinforced her insecurities, punished her mentally for her behavior, and essentially began abusing her….that their marriage improved and their sex life improved and his wife began “liking him” again.
Here’s what really happened to Dave in Hawaii. The day that he stopped being “Dave” and started practicing Game, he LITERALLY divorced his wife, left her, and presented her with a NEW LOVER.
He doesn’t seem to realize that the REASON his wife appears to “like him again” is because he is ACTING LIKE A COMPLETELY NEW AND DIFFERENT LOVER/HUSBAND. This means that Dave and his wife were NOT right for each other in the first place and instead of accepting that, working on it, seeking marriage counseling, and trying to re-learn their behaviors TOGETHER….he decided that “real Dave” is just not worth saving and being an abuser is a better option than being himself. That is NOT improvement. That is stepping down one notch lower. Even though real Dave was not an abuser, he became an abuser by choice….and then became addicted to the false feeling of “power” being an abuser gives him. Dave really DID die in many ways.
Dave basically bowed down to her “demands” and “died” that day. He began living the life of a man who does not exist. A man who is NOT Dave. He became a DIFFERENT man because the real Dave was apparently a man that his wife did not or could not love. Now he has admitted that the real Dave isn’t worth saving. Isn’t worth working on. Isn’t worth improving if he cannot control his wife with that Dave. Instead of seeking counseling and maybe divorcing if the marriage could not be saved and LOOKING to meet a woman who DOES like “real Dave”…..he instead decided to go and die.
Not literal death, of course. But he is so full of hatred of himself and who he really is that he would rather KILL himself (real Dave) and morph into a new man to please his wife (who very well may not deserve the real Dave OR the fake Dave) and make her “love” him again.
He not accomplished anything except bowing down to what she wanted in the first place and was too much of a coward to admit: A NEW HUSBAND AND A NEW LOVER.
He gave her that. But at what price? His beliefs? His character? His self-love? His self-esteem?
And for what ends? To “keep” a woman who clearly no longer loved him and wanted a new husband in the first place. And also to have to live a LIE and manipulate and BRAINWASH a women that he is probably much better off without.
It’s a shame he did that because there are certainly more than a few women who would have been a better match for “real Dave”. But real Dave is dead now, so I guess we will never know.
THAT is the cold hard truth of “Dave in Hawaii’s success with Game”.
Congratulations, “Dave”.
Mr M said:I don’t see how I’m a “PUA” – explain?
The reason I personally see you as a PUA is for two reasons:
You use similar mind control techniques AND you use language that only PUA’s and MRA’s use and have ideas of what certain words phrases mean (that are scientifically incorrect) such as your use of the phrase “Beta Provider”.
I’ll even go a step further and give an example of how PUA’s misuse and actually use OPPOSITE meanings of words such as “Alpha” and “Beta”
In Science, Anthropology, and even the Animal Kingdom…..the term Alpha simply means “leader” whether male or female.
In males the term Alpha is used to describe the PROVIDER, the protector, and the leader of his family and the leader amongst other males.
The “Beta” would be considered the scavengers who do not contribute to protection, providing food, or leading anyone else. The have no wish to lead, but only a wish to “live off” others.
Essentially every single PUA or MRA who uses the term “Beta” to describe a man who cares for his children and provides for his family are flagrantly MISUSING and REVERSING the actual meaning. A “provider” is synonymous with “Alpha” in both Anthropology and in Animals.
Let’s use Animals as an example:
Lions are the undisputed “Alphas” of the Jungle. Both the male and female lions are “leaders” and “at the top of the food chain” above the other species. The female lioness does ALL of the hunting and most of the protecting of the pride and her children. The male lion does not hunt, but also leads and protects the pride and other lions. Therefore the lion is “Alpha” because he is the leader, provider, and protector of his family and of the other lions.
The Scavengers like Jackals and Hyenas are considered ALMOST as dangerous as the Lion. However, the scavengers will NOT step on the Lion’s toes in a confrontational manner. They do NOT wish to lead or to protect or to provide. They ONLY wish to STEAL the leftovers from the Lion’s meals…..and even to prey on the smaller and weaker lions and lion cubs that they can get their hands on. They circle the Lions from a safe distance waiting for their chance to pounce and steal the leftovers from the Alpha Male and Female Lions (and subsequently the “Alpha-in-training” Lion Cubs).
The SCAVENGERS are therefore the “Betas” of the two. They are considered one step BELOW the lions in who are in charge and have NO WISH to lead or attack the lions…..just to live OFF OF THEM. Thus, the meaning of “Beta” is one who picks up the leftovers by their more powerful counterparts.
Now think carefully about this.
What does that mean the PUA is in terms of “Alpha and Beta” using the CORRECT Scientific meaning of the words???
It makes the PUA the “Beta” because he cannot lead. No one follows him. He cannot CONFRONT or ATTACK the Alpha Male nor compete with him. He wants to contribute nothing. He wants to protect no one. He does NOT want to provide and protect his women, children, and family. He ONLY wants to “scavenge the leftovers” that he can grab from the REAL ALPHA MALES that he is so jealous of. He is unwilling to put in the legwork as provider, leader, and protector and is thus content taking whatever scraps are thrown to him and doesn’t mind having to use “any means necessary to do it”.
Therefore PUA is actually synonymous with “BETA” and the men they are so jealous of and trying to shame as “beta providers” are indeed the Alpha Males who are leading their families, protecting them, and providing for them BY choice. (And typically with an Alpha Female at his side as well.)
That is what makes PUA’s so lacking in credibility (to me). They do not even understand the basic meanings of the words “Alpha” and “Beta” and yet they USE the terms to describe everything and anything that they say.
Hm lots to reply to…sigh.
Okay first of all, you should go read Dave f Hawaii’s post:
http://hawaiianlibertarian.blogspot.com/2009/12/pua-in-ltr.html
(Sorry in advance Dave if you get hateful comments on your blog). I think he sums it up nicely – he’s not a “new lover” or a “different person” that his wife fell for. You’re really, really, reallllllly overreaching and making presumptions about a guy who actually uses game to better himself and those around him.
I affiliate with him a lot, actually. I, too, have fallen into that supplicating trap and not acting masculine, instead deferring most/all decisions to be made by my sig other. Its what most men think women want. There’s no deception or lies being spewed. Just a guy who was at point A, stumbled a bit to point B, reevaluated why and how that happened, and got back to point A again.
You presume that his wife fell for him because he was the same guy at point B – wrong. She fell for point A. He just went back to the original person.
Anyway, go read the post, he explains it better than I.
LR EDIT: Just to clarify, I did not say that his wife was looking for the “right things” in him when they married. In truth it sounds like she didn’t love him then and doesn’t love him now. A woman who feigns LIKING being lied to and manipulated is a woman who should NOT be in a romantic relationship and should be AVOIDED until she seeks counseling.
I think your assumption that Denise or I would leave “hateful comments” on his blog is kind of unfair. I have only been known to leave hateful comments where they belong: at Roissy’s. And I don’t think Denise has left them anywhere. I don’t understand why you gentlemen continue to WANT to believe that all women are out to get you if they are debating something with you. We are TRYING to understand, but it seems that no matter what we ask, we are accused of looking for something to “hate on”. If that were the case, we wouldn’t bother asking…..just accusing.
LR EDIT: I sincerely hope your “changes” that you’d like to see don’t involve victimizing more women and involve men having even LESS responsibility as parents and husbands than they already do, because that is the normal response from a Misogynist.
Sigh. You need to take YOUR bias down a notch or 10.
I’d prefer a 50/50 split custody, barring any severe issues with the parents. No child support exchanged, since its 50/50. Alimony is in the air, as I recognize there are instances where its necessary to get one spouse back on their feet.
As for DV, I believe 99% of all shelters/agencies subscribe to the “Duluth” model, which basically assigns 100% blame to the man and 100% victim status to the woman. Lots of research shows DV is reciprocal and occurs due to numerous variables. Basically, the Duluth model doesn’t “solve” the problems, or even “prevent” it, it just treats the symptoms (see the parallel to my stance on healthcare?).
Related to the directly above post, I think glennsacks.com provides a pretty “neutral” line of thought as to what I agree with should be changed wrt legal system. Haven’t read his site in a week or two, though.
Basically my whole view of Game and PUA’s comes down to this: These men hate themselves SO MUCH that they would rather BECOME an abuser by choice….than be rejected as a “good man”.
They would rather feel a sense of “false power” that abusing provides…..than better themselves and earn some REAL power.
Honestly, that is not only SAD on every level….but it means that these guys are all willing to commit suicide (of their real selves) and come back as an abuser…..rather than put in the leg work and the time to improve themselves, learn new ways of living, and becoming self-aware.
Those things are not “hard” to attain. But clearly they are MUCH harder than just becoming an abuser. Men who practice Game are not progressing….they are regressing. And they are giving up on themselves and taking the easy way out.
At the expense of the innocent women they are using and abusing.
And you wonder why some women may not feel empathy for your pain? This is why.
ALSO: if you are not Mr. M, the LoveSystems teacher, then why do you use the same name as he does?
I’m not him – and does it matter? I don’t pretend to be him, in fact I didn’t know who he was until you mentioned. I use the name b/c chose it. I see quite a lot of “Mister Ms” on the internet on various blogs/sites, why would you automatically assume that an otherwise anonymous poster on the internet is the same person from a totally different website?
in any case, i will take my opinion of porn a step further and say that given the very varied and large porn markets for various fetishes, I think this is proof that PUA’s assumptions and assertions about what women want or even about what men want ARE MISTAKEN.
Wait – what? Why? How does the variety (fetish) and size of porn market provide mistaken proof to PUAs about women? You completely lost me.
LR EDIT: I think Denise might have meant in the same way the porn market appears to children…..is the same way it may appear to a lonely, bitter man or a PUA. (ie: even grown adults tend to forget that the people in porn are PAID ACTORS and NOT representative of ANYONE’S real wants, needs, and actions. I won’t touch on the porn thing much more, though because personally I am VERY MUCH grossed out by seeing OTHER people have sex. I don’t understand it, it doesn’t turn me on in the slightest, and I can only watch it from a sort of weird “medical” perspective.
But I realize a lot of people seem to “enjoy” it so I guess it’s just not for me. Plus, there is NOTHING about a strange man’s naked body or body parts that I find attractive or would want to see. It’s like watching a documentary about the Human Anatomy in terms of “fun” for me.
“desi fpua macaca bitch” – We’re not comparing an “unattractive” man with a “boring” job in his 40’s with an “attractive” woman in her 20’s. We are comparing an obviously disturbed, obsessive, stalkerish, no boobs, 30+ woman, WITH an illegitimate kid full of criminal DNA, and who has admitted to being a very superficial person, with a 40 year old, successful, smart, tall, white man in DC. Roissy has a very good job if that is in fact him. What’s your job desi? Curry cook?
Get with the fucking program, dot face. Even those who would fuck and chuck Lady Raine would never “Date” her.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mader Chod!
Bhein Choot!
LOL.
AND – if you dont want to be lumped with all the bad evil puas and mras then why THE FUCK would you make yourself at home on blogs that say the hateful and violent things such as those above
R writes well, I think he uses a good mixture of satire, sensationalism, irony, and he does well pointing out inconsistencies in western society. Also possible concerns that may arise for my personal life.
Same goes for spearhead. I like that its a male POV providing issues that may end up affecting me, as being male. You don’t see many websites clamoring for changes to the child custody system, do you?
and WHY THE FUCK would you want to buy r a drink???
Y so srs? I already stated, I think he would be fun to converse with. Maybe I’d buy you a drink…if you didn’t say I was an abusive male the likes of which shall be smitten to hell with the fury of the PC-gods!
what if LR and I said we wish we could hang out and have a good time and have a drink with – oh i don’t know – you see i’m not even aware enough of the revenge feminist world to be able to name someone here – b/c I DO NOT ASSOCIATE with them -
Lol. Go ahead. Go have a drink with Jessica Valenti too! Actually – I probably wouldn’t MIND having a conversation with the QUEEN-pin feminist just cause it would be interesting.
LR EDIT: I will admit this and I’m sure so will Denise….I have NO knowledge of “whom” these modern Revenge Feminists are and have never stumbled upon and Feminist site. I guess I have been lucky. So is THAT one of the Revenge Feminists??? Because if that’s the case I want a link to her site so that I can…..see what these bitches are doing to make us all look so bad. And then call them out on it.
Your comment, though made me laugh because I think in one of my private conversations with Chuck Ross he said: “I even think we would get along well in real life!”
To Mr.M :
Dude, do you understand that real Mr.M will be seriously pissed off that people think you are him ! The guy could have lost his job because of that.
LR EDIT: In truth the OTHER guy is probably a way bigger asshole if he teaches Game. At least THIS Mr M just thinks that it CAN be helpful. Not nearly as bad IMO. At least he’s not peddling it and burying his head in the sand like the Gurus do, then. So it should be THIS Mr. M who is pissed…..not the OTHER Mr. M…..errr….whatever.
LR –
You use similar mind control techniques AND you use language that only PUA’s and MRA’s use and have ideas of what certain words phrases mean (that are scientifically incorrect) such as your use of the phrase “Beta Provider”.
So I use the vocabulary that, you apparently understand pretty well yourself, to communicate ideas, in text, over the internet. I still don’t see how that makes me a PUA???
I see how that might further our communication, since we’re talking about ideas and, hopefully, trying not to get caught up (lost?) in translation.
Oh – how do I control your mind? Or, how do I employ mind control techniques?
Mr M–
On the Dave stuff: I don’t want to sit here and pick apart a guy who probably doesn’t know he’s being picked apart so I’ll leave it at this…..you seem to forget that I am QUITE familiar with the types of comments Dave from Hawaii would post at Roissy’s especially involving his wife. He speaks hatefully, disrespectfully, and in a mocking tone when he refers to her. I recall being horrified that ANY married man who speak in such a way about his wife. Maybe I was raised differently because my parents don’t fight and would rather die than be caught saying nasty things about each other, but I think his tone is VERY disrespectful, he speaks about her as if she’s a dog…..he speaks about “masculinity” as if “being a manipulative prick” somehow is related to being “manly”.
I have noted that you use the same sort of description of “manly” and put it next to “Game”. I don’t understand that because I have never in my life been attracted to a man who peacocks, insults me, manipulates me, acts possessive, or trys to talk me into things I don’t want to do (sexually) because I’d consider him an abuser.
Those are all things that Game teaches and I do NOT understand what your meaning of “masculinity” is. To ME and A LOT of women (who are not in need of psychological help) would consider masculinity: a man who is comfortable in himself. A man who is confident in himself. A man who knows what he is and what he is NOT. A man who is not afraid to share his feelings….but also one who is confident enough in your love for him to NOT have to badger you with those feelings. A man who has no problem telling me how he feels about me, what he wants, what he needs, and what he expects from a relationship. A manly man also cares about what I want and DOES NOT do those things to “get laid” or to “gain the upper hand”. He does them because he loves me. He does them because seeing me smile is reason enough to do them. He does them because my happiness is just as important to him as his.
A man who wishes to tease, taunt, and intentionally “play a game” with my feelings, my love, or my body is a man who I would spit on and probably call my REAL “MANLY” male friends have them beat his ass for me.
THOSE are “manly and masculine” men. Game is childish at BEST and abusive at the WORST.
There is nothing else that it could be called.
To Mr.M :
Dude, do you understand that real Mr.M will be seriously pissed off that people think you are him ! The guy could have lost his job because of that.
Lol – that’s kinda funny. I don’t really care, either way. If internet identity mattered that much we’d all have to register one username for all sites.
LR EDIT: It’s funny, but it sure is goddamn confusing to keep up with. Now half my argument has to be revamped, lol.
LR -
At least read his post – I’m pretty sure you didn’t.
Regardless, reading about game and men’s rights issues helped me, personally, try to discover what I feel I needed to do to be more masculine (I never once said I peacock, or manipulate for sex btw).
You know what? I’m glad you had 2 parents, I didn’t. I had no male role model at all in my entire life. Not that having a father equates to a “good” male role model – but it might’ve been better than nothing. Obviously you disagree by which method I choose to figure out what “being a man” is and most certainly disagree on what it even means.
***Of course, you will equate this to “roissy is my father figure” – which…is funny, but I bet you did think that. I filter and process ideas and internalize what I think is right for me for my purposes – notice the word FILTER. It means SELECTIVE. It means I can read something, pick it apart, and take what is meaningful, and go from there. It doesn’t mean b/c I read a blog that I worship every written word.
Your approval doesn’t really matter to me, as long as I live my life the way I think best for my goals and decisions (done in an ethical manner). There a lot of things I’ve mused on in the past few years or so, shit I didn’t care about prior to that…I may have had inklings of ideas, but nothing more than a whisper.
I’ve stated it plenty of times, I’ve been raised to be as fair as possible – which is what caused me to feel slighted in the first place (things didn’t SEEM fair to me). Sure, I was angry at a time, which is what Welmer maintains the spearhead is a good purpose for (for men to hash out, deal with, and understand said emotion). I’m a better person for it. Once again I’ll state I filter what I read – so relax on the “but they say bitch/cunt/suckcock on spearhead so its bologne!”
LR –
A man who wishes to tease…
That stuck out to me. Do you not tease/joke (light heartedly, of course) with men? Ever? Do they not return it? Its playful banter. I’ve been doing it my entire life for whatever reason, pretty sure lots of people do without the pretense of “running game” ….
This is the essence of what Dave does. I’m certain of that. Its stopping the “WHAT DID I DO WRONG, HONEY?” mentality and towards the “Let’s have a good time and not sweat the small shit!” You view him as a trainer to a dog, I view him as a guy who rediscovered a friend/wife instead of a mother/authority figure.
I’d prefer a 50/50 split custody, barring any severe issues with the parents. No child support exchanged, since its 50/50. Alimony is in the air, as I recognize there are instances where its necessary to get one spouse back on their feet.
I’d also prefer more 50/50 splits, but I think the reason it’s not so common is because shipping kids back and forth isn’t really the greatest for their sense of security. However, I don’t understand your point on the child support, exactly though. Do you mean “50/50″ split on EVERYTHING including actual things each person has to have to properly raise children? Such as a clean home, heat, electric, food, daycare (since it’s a HUGE cost), college education, gas money, school supplies, etc? THEN I can see why “no child support” would make sense…..but not if one parent is providing all the “necessities” of a good home and the other is NOT.
As for Alimony, we don’t even have that here in PA and many states don’t. However, we DO have Spousal Support which is entirely different. Spousal Support takes the income of BOTH parents into consideration (and the variables like who has custody and spends more on their home to make it safe for their children and things like that).
I don’t agree with “unjust” Alimony….(ie: Man is living in a shanty with no cash and the wife has remarried a wealthy man and is STILL collecting ridiculous amounts of Alimony just because she can.)
However I DO agree that if a man and woman agree to get married…..and say they agree to have children….and they agree that one parent should stay home with the kids so the other can work and provide financially, then I DO believe the financial provider owes that woman 50 % of his/her pay. That is only fair and just because were it NOT for the spouse staying home and providing free daycare, homecooked meals, and a clean home…..you would have been bringing home AT LEAST half of your current pay.
You would be paying a Daycare for every single day of the week (and most likely would have to work less hours because daycares have certain hours) and losing quite a bit of money.
You would be paying a maid for all the free cleaning and maintainence around the house that the stay at home spouse is doing for free.
And you would be paying a private chef to be on call 24-7 to cook for you and your children whenever you wanted/needed to eat.
We’ll not even get into the other things that need to be done around the home because obviously that varies couple to couple and household to household, but I think it’s REALLY unfair and REALLY ridiculous when a man says “Well I make the money and you don’t!”
Those men seem to forget that they would NOT be making that money if they were paying a Daycare, a Babysitter, a Nanny, a Maid, and a Personal Chef to do all those things. They’d be bringing home at least 50 percent less. They would also be subject to much less option of how many hours to work, what shift to work, accepting overtime, and even going on business trips (trust me, I know because I have to consider all those things as a single mother and I hate it that I cannot work as much as I’d like to because it costs more for me to work extra hours than I can afford to pay a daycare.)
I’m not giving you a hard time, here ….it’s just that “50/50″ could mean damn near anything and I want to clarify before I bother agreeing or disagreeing.
I do agree that more men need to be given a chance at having custody. But I also think that NOT ENOUGH men actually FIGHT to gain custody when custody is deserved. There are a lot of men who (deep down) know that it is DEFINITELY easier to just send a check in the mail and hang out with the kids every other weekend, than to actually have custody and raise them and I think that’s one of the reason why they DON’T fight for custody.
But then I think there are men who DO want to have custody for the right reasons, but either don’t have the money to fight it out in court or they have tried to fight, but lost because mothers ARE given first pick in custody (some of the reasons for that are valid and some are not, too of course).
lol…seriously people:
* Posting 38 (!) times to my blog with repetitive copy and pastes about skinheads is not asking questions. If there had been an actual question, I’d have answered it.
* Other commenters did ask me specifically what I thought of a couple of Roissy’s statements. I responded. It’s plain and in public view. It’s also been up for days. Go check it out:
http://therealsavoy.blogspot.com/2009/12/crazy-lady-returns.html#comments
* If there are other questions you’d like me to respond to, feel free to post them there. Denise too, though only one comment at a time and not giant copy and pastes about skinheads
It’s really not any more complicated than that.
More importantly, everyone around here needs to smile a bit and wish each other Happy New Year. We will probably never meet in real life and very few people read this blog (no offense; comparatively few read mine either) and maybe just maybe there’s an element of taking oneself too seriously…
So Happy New Year! And I’d buy ALL of you a beer,
NS
Also, Mr. M on the Dave thing:
I don’t understand why men still think that women either want them to be pussy-whipped bitches….or abusive assholes. Do those men find women to love them? Sure, there’s something for everyone. But 90% of women do NOT want either one of those things.
I have never EVER seen a woman who is TRULY happy and “in love” with a man who is her doormat. At the same time, I have never EVER seen a woman who is happy with a controlling abuser. There is a LOT of gray area in between where most men fall and that’s usually what women want anyhow……
That’s why to me, it seems that “Game” is a “lazy man’s option” to getting laid, getting dates, and NOT having to try to stand apart from the pack for GOOD reasons.
I’m not giving you a hard time, here ….it’s just that “50/50″ could mean damn near anything and I want to clarify before I bother agreeing or disagreeing.
Well, by 50/50 I mean that the kids would spend half the time at dad’s and half the time at mom’s. This should cover food/rent/supplies/activities/clothes/etc. I would hope if you’re engaging in 50/50 that things like tuition and the like would be split as well.
Logistically, I haven’t thought about it…maybe alternate weeks? Hopefully though, a parent wouldn’t go to lengths to separate the kids from the other parent (ie: move out of state).
As for alimony, if one is a stay-at-home spouse, they deserve some, if anything to get back on their feet. Needs to be temporary though, otherwise you find people mooching off the system just because they can.
I have never EVER seen a woman who is TRULY happy and “in love” with a man who is her doormat. At the same time, I have never EVER seen a woman who is happy with a controlling abuser. There is a LOT of gray area in between where most men fall and that’s usually what women want anyhow……
This is a good point – Men don’t know what men want, men don’t know what women want. Women don’t know what women want, women don’t know what men want.
There’s a lot of confusion as to relationships/genders right now.
Like I said, I personally became a doormat of sorts to my sig other, and she in turn became much more authority figure (hen pecking). Reading roissy/mra/et all helped me to realize that I shouldn’t be acting in such a way. Now I don’t act like an indecisive little baby, and she doesn’t act like a tyrant.
LR EDIT: More importantly, she shouldn’t WANT you to act like an “indecisive little baby”. If she DOES, then she doesn’t want a boyfriend, she wants a pet.
Ooops, sorry Nick. I don’t celebrate New Years because I don’t understand what about it is a “holiday”.
I also think it’s one of those “non holidays” sorta like Valentine’s Day. The only difference between the two is that one is an excuse for alcoholics to feel less bad about being alcoholics and the other is a way for marketers to make men feel guilty and make women feel unloved if you don’t buy a bunch of ridiculous and expensive gifts.
Sorry, just sayin….I AM a Grinch about New Year’s and refuse to acknowledge it or even flip past the “ball dropping” and all that dumb stuff. I think I may have watched the South Park Marathon with Wes and fell asleep by 11:30pm, lol.
That stuck out to me. Do you not tease/joke (light heartedly, of course) with men? Ever? Do they not return it? Its playful banter. I’ve been doing it my entire life for whatever reason, pretty sure lots of people do without the pretense of “running game” ….
Well that’s why I followed it with “and taunt” because I think (in my mind) that actual taunting or trying to get a rise out of your partner is not healthy, either. But someone like myself who LOVES to joke and LOVES sarcasm would not try to say that “playful teasing is wrong”. What I am saying is that some men tease and taunt when it’s CLEARLY not the time to do it (ie: when the women is rightfully upset or genuinely has had her feelings hurt, taunting and teasing in THAT manner is similar to “teaching her not to share those feelings of hurt and teaching her that when she DOES feel upset or hurt she should be ashamed/afraid/wrong and will be taunted for having those feelings”.)
And yes most people DO playfully tease to some degree, but if I am the teaser and I see ANY signs that my words actually hurt, then I WOULD be the first to say “What’s wrong honey?” because teasing is not always appropriate. I think a lot of men who practice Game do NOT care if they are truly hurting/shaming/putting down the woman with their teasing and THAT is NOT right and IS abusive.
This is the essence of what Dave does. I’m certain of that. Its stopping the “WHAT DID I DO WRONG, HONEY?” mentality and towards the “Let’s have a good time and not sweat the small shit!” You view him as a trainer to a dog, I view him as a guy who rediscovered a friend/wife instead of a mother/authority figure.
I agree on “not sweating the small shit”. What I meant on THAT point was that it’s wrong if the man is DECIDING FOR HER what is and is not “the small shit” and taunting and teasing HER for feeling something is a “big deal” just because he does NOT.
In Dave’s case, it’s just my personal opinion that he AND his wife are guilty of NOT addressing the issues at hand and are happily living in some sort of “delusion” where as long as he plays ONE role and she plays the OTHER they can both avoid introspection and doing actual “work” to correct those issues.
Meaning, sometimes a man SHOULD be asking “What’s wrong honey?” and not just assuming and dismissing it as “small shit” because he doesn’t want to actually DEAL with her feelings whether they are just or not.
At least read his post – I’m pretty sure you didn’t.
Regardless, reading about game and men’s rights issues helped me, personally, try to discover what I feel I needed to do to be more masculine (I never once said I peacock, or manipulate for sex btw).
I think you assume that I think ALL MEN learn Game to retaliate against women. I don’t. I think MOST men look there for the same sorts of things that you mentioned. But that doesn’t mean they will interpret it in the way that you do. And I also think you know that there are ALOT of men who will take it to a “dark place” inside of themselves and use it as a weapon against women either intentionally or passive aggressively and that’s why I say that MANY of the PUA “Teachers” are grossly irresponsible in the way they present their information and beliefs to men to casually. Any “dating advice” a person gives could and probably WILL affect someone if they decide to use it. It will either be negative or positive, but I really believe that the men who teach Game think of it too lightly and don’t take responsibility for the many “open ends” and “assumptions” that desperate and lonely men are going to see differently than perhaps you or I would.
You know what? I’m glad you had 2 parents, I didn’t. I had no male role model at all in my entire life. Not that having a father equates to a “good” male role model – but it might’ve been better than nothing. Obviously you disagree by which method I choose to figure out what “being a man” is and most certainly disagree on what it even means.
In truth, though….my mother is NOT a good role model (in my opinion). Sure, she’s a nice normal religious mom who was happy being a housewife and mother….but otherwise, she isn’t really the kind of person most women would want to model themselves after. I was taught to hide my feelings, never rock the boat, never speak up, never say what I think, and just try to find a “wealthy nice man” to care for me. Not all “normal 2 parent households” provide a good role model, either.
***Of course, you will equate this to “roissy is my father figure” – which…is funny, but I bet you did think that. I filter and process ideas and internalize what I think is right for me for my purposes – notice the word FILTER. It means SELECTIVE. It means I can read something, pick it apart, and take what is meaningful, and go from there. It doesn’t mean b/c I read a blog that I worship every written word.
No actually I’ll be totally honest: my first thought went again to my mother because when you said that I thought to myself “OMG, just imagine if I HAD looked to my mother as a role model….I’d barely be able to brush my own teeth without help.”
I would never mock you for looking for a male role model, but I think that you are intelligent enough to realize why I’d say that Roissy is NOT a good man to model oneself after. Nor are the attitudes of the MRA’s in general. Now, perhaps you were able to essentially “look past” the hate and the misogyny and see to the core and get a good lesson out of it, but you cannot deny that those men really are NOT presenting healthy attitudes toward women and love and could be creating undue hatred of women with their casual manner of speaking about the “women they hate”. There are far more men who would focus on the “hate and bitterness” and take a lesson from THAT then there are men who would look for the “man inside the hate” and see what HIS message and hurts are really all about.
Your approval doesn’t really matter to me, as long as I live my life the way I think best for my goals and decisions (done in an ethical manner). There a lot of things I’ve mused on in the past few years or so, shit I didn’t care about prior to that…I may have had inklings of ideas, but nothing more than a whisper.
I am not looking to “disprove of you” as a person or man and I am also not looking to APPROVE of what you do. I am looking both to understand what made you look to those sorts of role models in the first place when I think you can admit that there ARE much better sources of information on the genders and introspection/self-awareness than ones that are soaking in misogyny and hatred.
Also, if you have “mused” on things then clearly you are NOT looking to “ignore and medicate” your pain with hate and abuse like so many men and women ARE looking to do.
I’ve stated it plenty of times, I’ve been raised to be as fair as possible – which is what caused me to feel slighted in the first place (things didn’t SEEM fair to me). Sure, I was angry at a time, which is what Welmer maintains the spearhead is a good purpose for (for men to hash out, deal with, and understand said emotion). I’m a better person for it. Once again I’ll state I filter what I read – so relax on the “but they say bitch/cunt/suckcock on spearhead so its bologne!”
I’ll say this: I’m grateful for how TOUGH my parents were on me. How much they pushed the point that “The world is NOT fair. The world does NOT care if you are a nice person or not. The world does NOT owe you anything.” Now I realize that sounds harsh (and trust me, they were) but I’ve realized that I’m able to handle “traumas” and hurts much better than most people because at no point did I EVER expect to be treated with respect or fairness JUST for being a “nice person”. I was taught that you are not owed ANY measure of respect, until you have rightfully worked for it….and earned it. My parents did NOT raise me with a gender biased “entitlement complex” like so many parents of both boys and girls seem to do (especially moreso in today’s world).
On “The Spearhead”: I think that you ALSO know that Denise, myself and others are NOT just making a “big deal” out of little things like the word “cock” or “bitch”. There are VERY graphic, violent, hateful, and even TERRIFYING things that are said descriptively about women as a gender. I recall one post where a man murdered his wife and MANY MANY posters were CELEBRATING this poor woman’s death. One poster even said “Fucking bitches are all finally going to get what they deserve”.
Tell me what you’d think of a man who said those thing to or in front of your daughter? Your wife? Your mother? Your grandmother? What would you do? Would you tell them to “look for the good in him”? Or would you likely tell them to “run as fast as you can inside the house and don’t come out until he’s gone?” The same way you feel when you read those Revenge Feminism sites that JOYFULLY speak of shaming their husbands, cheating on them, using them, stealing their money, and even murdering them….do you “see the good and the therapeutic venting” in what they are saying and celebrating? I really doubt it.
I am not trying to say that “anyone who has ever agreed with ANYTHING on a misogynistic site is a criminal” but what I AM saying is that it’s not far-reaching to see why their discussions and language are NOT therapeutic to any woman or impressionable young man who is reading there. Their words ARE very hateful, very violent, and VERY destructive and they could easily be used to incite violence against women.
I don’t think it was fair of you to make it like Denise and I are making a big deal about simple things like the words “cock” and “bitch” because those words don’t really offend me. However descriptive stories about hurting and harming women and ENJOYING IT does offend me and I don’t think that we are wrong in our feelings on that and our assumptions on the men who post there, do you?
So I use the vocabulary that, you apparently understand pretty well yourself, to communicate ideas, in text, over the internet. I still don’t see how that makes me a PUA???
I see how that might further our communication, since we’re talking about ideas and, hopefully, trying not to get caught up (lost?) in translation.
Oh – how do I control your mind? Or, how do I employ mind control techniques?
Wait, what??? When did I say you use “mind control techniques” on ME??? I am almost positive that I did not say that at any point!! I am also pretty sure that I would have to be inundated with whatever information I was being “controlled” with in order for it to work in a “text only” format and nothing else!(meaning not just in a spirited debate/conversation)
I don’t know WHAT to call you (and I don’t mean that in an insulting way, lol)…what I mean is that using principles of Game DOES indeed require some measure of “brainwashing” or “mind control” for it to be “effective” in the ways that most of the Gurus are presenting it.
(However, I was operating on the mistaken premise that you were one of the LoveSystems guys that Denise had (apparently?) confused you with. I never knew anything about that particular confusion or situation so I’m also trying to figure out what the hell is going on here. If it was decided that you are NOT the OTHER “Mr. M” than some of what I said does not apply…..errr….or at least not in the same context. What? I’m not allowed to be confused once in awhile too?)
Mr M–
Okay, I see what the confusion is here on YOUR part and MY part. YOU thought that I was saying that “our conversation” led me to believe that you are using mind control on ME (lol) in our debate.
I thought that YOU were this guy “Mr M” from LoveSystems (or whatever it’s called) because I guess Denise had thought you were??? Therefore my “mind control” accusation would have been based on your “teaching Game” (mind control) to other men and thus you would be considered a “PUA” for lack of better terms.
So, I suppose since we were both confused as to that entire conversation, we’ll just forget the mind control and PUA comment and go back to square one. That you are just a guy who USED to be “hurt” by the unfairness in the world and maybe got walked all over because of it….and you feel that SOME properties of Game Technique and MRA advice has been useful to you, right? (just want to clarify now that I know you are NOT that other guy)
I really AM just as confused by that whole convo as you are (at this point) since I was operating under a different premise.
Mr M-
The only prob with that is this:
That woman may have spent….say 10-15 years as a stay at home mom.
You split and now she has to find work.
Now this woman who did nothing wrong (as I said we are talking about a normal divorce here) goes out to find a job.
How far do you think she will get with NO work experience, No employment history, and no useful job skills?
Would it be fair for that mom to have to make $7.50 an hour at best JUST because she stayed at home with your kids and you two happened to get divorced?
That’s where my problem lies in saying “Well she just needs to get a job!”
The spouse who WAS working all those years is at a huge advantage in the job market (especially now) and I don’t think its fair to PUNISH a woman for staying home and raising kids (while you were married).
I think men sometimes forget how hard it would be for a “lifetime homemaker” to be tossed into the work force with no real skills….not to mention that is she’s 35, 40, or 45 years old, she probably won’t even qualify for “manual labor” type positions.
That’s why I say I think some Alimony is just because that seems really unfair to me.
1. 1. I have been bombarded by really rude, ignorant, and violent emails from cowards with fake names and non-working email addresses who are not interested in actual dialogue or even debate – and who make no points whatsoever other than to tell me I’m a bitch, a misandrist, and other phrases I won’t even print here.
I’m very sorry to hear that, indeed I’ve seen some of it. Still, if it makes you feel any better that’s quite common if you get into debates on the internet where email is involved or where there is not a rigidly enforced blog policy if you are arguing on a blog or forum.
So, while I’d like to say my sarcasm has been entirely a conscious choice, I cannot honestly say so. But, that is a good learning point which I will raise for both myself and others
Too much of that will get on anyone’s nerves.
I’ll skip over your educational background. I appreciate the fact that you have work in “the trenches” but you operate under assumptions and rules sat by others. Since you are currently corresponding with Daran and others at FC I trust that going thru the archives there can show you how some of the assumptions you make are probably wrong, and that in some cases there’s been little or any real research into these things. I do think your DV therapy might work if you teach NVC and EQ concepts but not if you rely on the Duluth model. I esp feel sad for anybody in your course who who is there due to a false accusation or a mutual fight. I suspect part of the reason you never seemed to have female abusers in your practice (besides the male “sport injury” excuse that covers a few female/male beatdowns) is because NY is a primary aggressor state which means the larger party is often arrested no matter who started it under the theory that if a woman hits a man she is obviously doing so in self defense. See here:
http://www.radarsvcs.org/docs/RADARreport-Ranking-of-States-DV-Laws.pdf
1. Clarence: I disagree that I have been emotionally abusive, but please do point to examples of this, and if I have been, I have no problem looking at those and apologizing if need be.
What I will say is that abuse often yields uncivil behavior. I have been badly abused on roissy’s site despite having remained civil in the face of that.
I find it odd that you would point here to my having been “abusive” to others yet not acknowledge here how I was treated on roissy’s blog merely for disagreeing with him.
I also disagree that I’ve in any way “stalked” Savoy. He claims he has not heard of roissy, which I don’t believe for a second, especially since his own senior instructor, Mr. M, has posted on roissy frequently and in agreement with him. (disturbing since LoveSystems claims to respect women).
I tried to engage Savoy in an actual discussion like we are all having here, but he refused that.
Denise:
It was the accusatory way in which you approached him. It wasn’t done very politely, nor does he necessarily know about nor is responsible for things other men may have done. I also don’t understand your point about Mr. M, because I sincerely doubt most PUA “gurus” or “leaders” such as Savoy monitor every opinion and thought there instructors have. All he would probably know is if Mr. M was getting a bad reputation among students or among the ladies they tended to hang out with. This is what would alert him to abusive behaviour on the part of his students or instructors. Not what they’ve written on every blog on the internet.
I’m sorry you then received emails by some who were and who claimed to be students of his. Had you not seemed so quick to dismiss him he would not have been so quick to dismiss you and maybe you could have written him and got some action on their behaviour. However, they wouldn’t have known about you if you hadn’t written him those accusatory emails in the first place.
As for rape fantasies I’ve mulled over that one awhile and I do believe a sizable minority or slight majority of women have them. However two things:
A. They almost never involve in the fantasies extreme violence
B. They are almost always raped by the kind of man they most desire sexually.
Needless to say the “average” rapist rarely fits a woman’s fantasy which is why few – with the exception of the most religious- tend to be able to forgive the man who raped them.
Those are my thoughts on rape fantasies.
1. Clarence: I don’t know how you can make this statement. Do you know me and those who’ve made laws well enough to say this? I don’t believe you do.
Insofar as you a professional advocate and activist than yes, your kind of women helped make the current laws both good and bad on the subject of domestic violence, even if you personally have never signed a petition or testified in favor of a single law. In short, I’m not blaming YOU Denise.
Your next two paragraphs show me how you misunderstood some of my intent. Yes, I did hope we’d learn from each other. And in one of my earliest emails to you I challenged you to show me how NVC could help me attract women. I kind of dropped it though I intended to get back to it sooner or later as our conversation moved to other topics and ceased at some points for 2 or 3 weeks at a time.
1. Roissy has declared war on all women, and I am one, so he has harmed me just by posting the following on his blog, which is read by many men who clearly agree with him and he has a not insigifnicant amount of influence (which should disturb any person of principle regardless of gender).
1. cum in her mouth and hold it closed so she has to swallow
2. hitting women turns them on
3. alpha men should be able to hit women w/o them calling the police
4. the worst thing to happen to the US was women’s suffrage
Ahh yes, Roissy. My next post. Anyway I refuse to see thoughts as violence. I can see thoughts as wrong and ugly, but not violent. And even if they were, I WISH all the violence in the world were restricted to violent thoughts. In my opinion the value of ugly thoughts even on hate filled blogs such as Feministing, Storm Front or for the most part to a MUCH lesser extent Roissy is two fold:
A. it shows how someone really feels
B. When confronting such thoughts I am forced to consider and defend my own.
I sincerely doubt Law Enforcement is going to consider Roissy a criminal no matter how offensive his views and no matter how criminal they would be if someone applied them r/l. Roissy has no power to take a womans right to voite away and I am willing to bet that hes never raped anyone. My God, I agree with some of Roissys posts – Some!- does that mean I agree with him on everything?! The man has posted HUNDREDS of posts and not all of them are anywhere near as inflammatory as the ones you’ve picked out to criticize. Dave in Hawaii was one of the first to post his use of game in maintaining his marriage on Roissys site. Many people found Roissy’s view on pickup mixed with politics to be an interesting and useful. Some of his posts have been funny, a few have been sweet. Heck Lady Raine herself has said the man is skilled at writing and that she enjoyed a few of his posts. So I refuse to be a monster simply because I found Roissy to be useful and interesting at times.
As far as stalking Savoy, I agree that was not your INTENT..but the laws on this sort of stuff are rather unkind to intent Im afraid. If we go by the common definition you did just that. I hope you dont think that makes you a horrible person. Its quite easy to become an abuser these days when a shove or a shout is considered the same as a punch or a scream. I really wish there was more context in our ideas of abuse these days as well as recognition that we are all human and mess up sometimes.
ACK.
LR please feel free to remove the above post. I’m going to quote it properly. Right now it would be hell for anyone let alone Denise to read.
Denise:
. I have been bombarded by really rude, ignorant, and violent emails from cowards with fake names and non-working email addresses who are not interested in actual dialogue or even debate – and who make no points whatsoever other than to tell me I’m a bitch, a misandrist, and other phrases I won’t even print here.
I’m very sorry to hear that, indeed I’ve seen some of it. Still, if it makes you feel any better that’s quite common if you get into debates on the internet where email is involved or where there is not a rigidly enforced blog policy if you are arguing on a blog or forum.
So, while I’d like to say my sarcasm has been entirely a conscious choice, I cannot honestly say so. But, that is a good learning point which I will raise for both myself and others
Too much of that will get on anyone’s nerves.
I’ll skip over your educational background. I appreciate the fact that you have work in “the trenches” but you operate under assumptions and rules sat by others. Since you are currently corresponding with Daran and others at FC I trust that going thru the archives there can show you how some of the assumptions you make are probably wrong, and that in some cases there’s been little or any real research into these things. I do think your DV therapy might work if you teach NVC and EQ concepts but not if you rely on the Duluth model. I esp feel sad for anybody in your course who who is there due to a false accusation or a mutual fight. I suspect part of the reason you never seemed to have female abusers in your practice (besides the male “sport injury” excuse that covers a few female/male beatdowns) is because NY is a primary aggressor state which means the larger party is often arrested no matter who started it under the theory that if a woman hits a man she is obviously doing so in self defense. See here:
http://www.radarsvcs.org/docs/RADARreport-Ranking-of-States-DV-Laws.pdf
“Clarence: I disagree that I have been emotionally abusive, but please do point to examples of this, and if I have been, I have no problem looking at those and apologizing if need be.
What I will say is that abuse often yields uncivil behavior. I have been badly abused on roissy’s site despite having remained civil in the face of that.
I find it odd that you would point here to my having been “abusive” to others yet not acknowledge here how I was treated on roissy’s blog merely for disagreeing with him.
I also disagree that I’ve in any way “stalked” Savoy. He claims he has not heard of roissy, which I don’t believe for a second, especially since his own senior instructor, Mr. M, has posted on roissy frequently and in agreement with him. (disturbing since LoveSystems claims to respect women).
I tried to engage Savoy in an actual discussion like we are all having here, but he refused that. “
Denise:
It was the accusatory way in which you approached him. It wasn’t done very politely, nor does he necessarily know about nor is responsible for things other men may have done. I also don’t understand your point about Mr. M, because I sincerely doubt most PUA “gurus” or “leaders” such as Savoy monitor every opinion and thought there instructors have. All he would probably know is if Mr. M was getting a bad reputation among students or among the ladies they tended to hang out with. This is what would alert him to abusive behaviour on the part of his students or instructors. Not what they’ve written on every blog on the internet.
I’m sorry you then received emails by some who were and who claimed to be students of his. Had you not seemed so quick to dismiss him he would not have been so quick to dismiss you and maybe you could have written him and got some action on their behaviour. However, they wouldn’t have known about you if you hadn’t written him those accusatory emails in the first place.
As for rape fantasies I’ve mulled over that one awhile and I do believe a sizable minority or slight majority of women have them. However two things:
A. They almost never involve in the fantasies extreme violence
B. They are almost always raped by the kind of man they most desire sexually.
Needless to say the “average” rapist rarely fits a woman’s fantasy which is why few – with the exception of the most religious- tend to be able to forgive the man who raped them.
Those are my thoughts on rape fantasies.
“Clarence: I don’t know how you can make this statement. Do you know me and those who’ve made laws well enough to say this? I don’t believe you do.”
Insofar as you a professional advocate and activist than yes, your kind of women helped make the current laws both good and bad on the subject of domestic violence, even if you personally have never signed a petition or testified in favor of a single law. In short, I’m not blaming YOU Denise.
Your next two paragraphs show me how you misunderstood some of my intent. Yes, I did hope we’d learn from each other. And in one of my earliest emails to you I challenged you to show me how NVC could help me attract women. I kind of dropped it though I intended to get back to it sooner or later as our conversation moved to other topics and ceased at some points for 2 or 3 weeks at a time.
“Roissy has declared war on all women, and I am one, so he has harmed me just by posting the following on his blog, which is read by many men who clearly agree with him and he has a not insigifnicant amount of influence (which should disturb any person of principle regardless of gender).
1. cum in her mouth and hold it closed so she has to swallow
2. hitting women turns them on
3. alpha men should be able to hit women w/o them calling the police
4. the worst thing to happen to the US was women’s suffrage “
Ahh yes, Roissy. My next post. Anyway I refuse to see thoughts as violence. I can see thoughts as wrong and ugly, but not violent. And even if they were, I WISH all the violence in the world were restricted to violent thoughts. In my opinion the value of ugly thoughts even on hate filled blogs such as Feministing, Storm Front or for the most part to a MUCH lesser extent Roissy is two fold:
A. it shows how someone really feels
B. When confronting such thoughts I am forced to consider and defend my own.
I sincerely doubt Law Enforcement is going to consider Roissy a criminal no matter how offensive his views and no matter how criminal they would be if someone applied them r/l. Roissy has no power to take a womans right to voite away and I am willing to bet that hes never raped anyone. My God, I agree with some of Roissys posts – Some!- does that mean I agree with him on everything?! The man has posted HUNDREDS of posts and not all of them are anywhere near as inflammatory as the ones you’ve picked out to criticize. Dave in Hawaii was one of the first to post his use of game in maintaining his marriage on Roissys site. Many people found Roissy’s view on pickup mixed with politics to be an interesting and useful. Some of his posts have been funny, a few have been sweet. Heck Lady Raine herself has said the man is skilled at writing and that she enjoyed a few of his posts. So I refuse to be a monster simply because I found Roissy to be useful and interesting at times.
As far as stalking Savoy, I agree that was not your INTENT..but the laws on this sort of stuff are rather unkind to intent Im afraid. If we go by the common definition you did just that. I hope you dont think that makes you a horrible person. Its quite easy to become an abuser these days when a shove or a shout is considered the same as a punch or a scream. I really wish there was more context in our ideas of abuse these days as well as recognition that we are all human and mess up sometimes.
LR I’ll just say that if I had my way “no fault” would be a thing of the past when a marriage produced children. Divorce would be by fault only. If there was fraud involved it would involve both parents rather than one unilaterally deciding they wanted out.
Most of those marriages would then stay together and there would be much happier children.
Carry on
About Wikipedia:
They’ve tightened things up quite a bit recently. Was in the NY Times and everything. Keep UP, people!
Clarence–
I will check on the Wikipedia thing because some things I read there, I feel like an angry editor like “Ohhhh come on, what is THIS?”
On the divorce–
I have been very fortunate as to have never been through a divorce and even though I am a single mother I also did not have to go through any court proceedings on custody or child support (because he wanted no part of his son once I had left him and because I did not want to seek Child Support) therefore there was nothing to argue!
However, a lot of people mistakenly think I have no married because I’m “holding out” or because I think I’m too empowered or modern for it. That’s not the case.
While I won’t lie and try to tell you that I have ever had any REAL interest in marriage, I DO take marriage vows seriously.
I have never cheated on a boyfriend in my life and I cannot imagine cheating on a spouse. There are good reason to leave a marriage (like abuse or serious drug addiction that is harming your children) but I have never married for one reason:
If I were to marry, I would intend to STAY married no matter what. I will NOT marry a man just because he proposed and just because I love him (which is why I’ve said “no” to more than a few proposals).
I sort of have the equivalent of “Old Italian” beliefs: Even if your spouse dies, you do not ever remarry. You can date and be in love and do everything BUT marry.
I feel that it would be disrespectful to the memory of my husband to remarry and discard him and his vows just because his body is now a shell and his soul has moved on.
I think I would do what my grandmother did (my pop pop died from accidental death when my mother was 8 months pregnant with me, so my grandmother was only in her early 50′s) she lived in the same house they shared, kept his name, never remarried, never dated even ONE man nor had a fling and instead traveled the world with friends. She is now nearly 90 years old…..and still devoted to “seeing her Duke” (my pop pop’s nickname) and being with him again.
I realize that sounds sad, but my grammy is like a concrete pillar that cannot be broken. She battled colon cancer and won at 75 years old, lost her husband, and is STILL a loving and wonderful woman.
I would want to follow in her footsteps not for HER but because I think she had the general right idea.
Duke was her husband and always will be and even death does not erase their vows. (And he never would have asked her to be alone and not move on) She did so because she loved him THAT much.
That’s why divorce, cheating, and the casual discarding of vows really floors me. I’d be shamed from my family if I behaved in such a way. (For gods sake there has NEVER even been a divorce in our extended family!)
That’s also a reason why it bothers me more to see married men practicing Game. Your wife/husband is to be revered, adored, respected, and loved. How could anyone look at themselves in the mirror after knowing they had (even if not abusively) “Gamed” their wife?!!!
I find it absolutely appauling, I really do.
Hi, Clarence,
Good to see you here again. I’m in the midst of major deadlines which I hope to be done with by monday.
I think you’re contributing alot of value to this dicussion, so I thank you for that.
“it shows how someone really feels”
I really think your statement quoted above is important – AND – what i hope we can all do is to see that this statement is true not just for men who feel/are victimized by women – but also for men who feel/are victimized by men.
it goes back to what i’ve been saying: we’re probably all victims of someone at some point.
SO, why can’t we focus on BEHAVIOR – and not so much on gender?
I’d like to see women and men finding common ground and speaking out together against: (please consider these all to be rog):
molestation of children
sexual assault of others (rog)
physical assautl of others (rog)
infidelity (rog)
hate speech
finding pleasure in harming others
encouraging others to harm others
unfair laws etc.
LR makes excellent points to mr m in their discussion of what “fair” divorce laws should look like -
AND i think this bring us to another important micro point that has a macro-outcome in relation to eveything we’ve discussed:
The details count. Being consistent counts. Mutuality counts.
It’s really important. Because mr m and others keep saying “well pua wouldn’t exist if men weren’t frustrated” or
“men wouldn’t do that if women didn’t….”
we disagree.
and I find it irresponsible. Fine – say there is hurt, there is a lack of fairness, and say what it is.
But here is what i have a huge problem with:
Men say “well women aren’t throwing themselves at us sexually so we have to do game to get them”.
NO, YOU DON’T.
There are 10,000 other things you could do to get women to want to date you, relate to you, sleep with you, marry you.
I agree with LR – game is a lazy, unethical, sleazy option.
I particularly think “speed seduction” says it all: fuck the woman’s feelings and needs – just get him laid as early and often as possible.
screw her needs to feel comfortable, let’s just play some mind games and make her *think* she’s comfortable. By the time she realizes she really wasn’t, it will be too late for her to regret it. AND, since there is no *physical* force, it’s not technically rape.
I disagree. Sex with a minor is a crime of rape b/c they are incapable of consenting.
Sex with a drunk or otherwise cognitively impaired woman is rape for the same reason.
game is not different. It’s a series of methods whose sole purpose is to impair her logic, awareness of her feelings and needs, and trick her into sex she otherwise would not want.
i consider that rape.
it is very disturbing to us that you don’t see this.
further disturbing is that we REALLY are trying to be intellectually honest and fair here and openly acknowledge and understand and learn more about men’s feelings of having been wronged – and we want to know.
and we have so far been very compassionate, I think, in response to what we’re inviting you all to tell us.
What we do NOT understand (because we’re not revengsits) is how so many of (not all) these same harmed men instead of denouncing ALL violence as harmful given their knowledge of what it has done to them – choose instead to become revenge-focused and see WOMEN as the problem instead of the actual problems, which I think many of agree are:
aspects of the legal system
aspects of the mental health system (since I will trust Gwallan that it failed him)
and sexism.
Why can’t sexism be seen for the enemy it is rather than this irrational blaming of women??
Before I forget – i will interrupt myself and say that as a corporate governance expert, I can say with authority that most workplaces require employees to read an employee handbook, understand it, ask about whatever they do not understand, abide by a code of conduct or ethics, and then sign a form indicating that they understand what is required of them behaviorally.
Even the military does this. So, Savoy’s excuses of being busy and having X number of instructors and assistants just doesn’t fly.
The military is thousands of times larger than savoy’s company yet manages to make this very clear to every single one of their employees. And we’re all familiar with the phrase “conduct unbecoming”. it’s the same thing.
Most companies also have non-compete agreements, ethics policies, external activities policies, and even procurement policies. So, he should be able to do this too.
AND, I fully agree with LR’s comparisons of negligence. There are laws in the US that address corporate negligence and public safety. Maybe I will look into that and see if it applies.
and just a note about that; i’m not being vengeful. LR and I and many others are very disturbed that savoy doesn’t seem to give a shit if game is misused and if there are not clear ethical parameters for his instructors and students or within the curriculum.
He has had his chance to be a responsbile business man, but he has made it clear that he doesn’t really care and sees himself as having no responsibility in this.
We disagree strongly. There are reasons why we have government processes and its not about wanting govt inovlvement in too many things – it’s precisely because too many business owners have proven over time that they DON’T care – and so that inevitably triggers processes by concerned citizens. We are those concerned citizens.
LR said it well once – that is how this nation was built. Hell, our founding fathers were rebels rising up against their former unjust government. It only continues. if anything, we’re being patriotic.
Just as examples, corporations did not voluntarily offer 8-hour workdays, safety standards to prevent death and injuries, civil rights protections, maternity leave, or FMLA. All of that had to be fought hard for over decades.
There are reasons certain laws are in place and that is because companies (and people) do not always do the right thing.
it’s pretty sad that we need laws telling every citizen what underage means as that relates to sexual activity – but we’ve learned that those laws are necessary. and, even when we have them…..well, they’re violated on a daily basis.
and you’re right – there’s certainly a spectrum for most things. I agree: we’re all human and have the capacity to mess up. We agree on that.
I also agree that if person A glares at person B (rog) in a relationship it’s not the same as if someone hit someone else. Okay? We agree on that.
However, and here is where we may disagree, there is context. If person A glares at person B after having verbally abused B for weeks or months or years and does so while cleaning a gun or while driving recklessly or whatever – if it’s done with the intent to intimidate, frighten, and -key word – CONTROL – that is abuse. and i submit, it is violence.
back to micro details. sorry i’m all over the place. very tired:
i’m noticing that it seems hard sometimes for men and women in this discussion to take the feelings, experiences, fears, concerns, and hurts of the other side, if you will, seriously.
I think Hugh pointed this out using different words – that it’s probably much easier for us to have empathy for those of own gender. I agree with him.
I think this is because we’ve likely lived similar experiences, so it’s more than empathy, it’s sympathy as well and identifying with that same pain.
NOW: i think we can really get somewhere in this if we try to be mindful of NOT dismissing the others’ concerns:
when you say “it’s just words” can you see how for us it is NOT just words.
Can you try to find some “just words” from women that men feel and have been hurt by?
in other words, can we please try to focus on behavior more and discuss it honestly as it relates to both genders to prevent ourselves from falling into the trap of excusing our own gender and not excusing the other gender?
i do think that would be helpful and help us all get somewhere.
thanks
Denise
clarence,
can you clarify your 2nd comment in the discussion of rape fantasies?
do you mean that IN THE FANTASY women are raped by men who they find attractive?
b/c in real life i can tell you it doesn’t matter if you’re attracted to him; all you’re thinking about is that you hope you aren’t murdered as well as raped.
i disagree that a marriage will magically work out if laws make divorce less easy
and i disagree that children are better off with two parents if those parents have an unhealthy marriage.
this also goes to what LR said about hawaii dave’s perspective. again, I echo all that she said about that.
Why is there a willingness on men’s parts to get advice about how the human mind works from snake oil salesmen like puas?
psychologists, counselors, brain researchers, psychiatrists, and others are much more qualified to talk about what makes for healthy self-understanding, communication, conflict resolution skills, etc.
and contrary to the hype, these are not boring things that dull a relationship into deadness bc there isn’t “spark” or “excitement”.
truly understanding another person and truly going THROUGH conflict to get to the other side can be a very exciting journey and can be quite exhilarating.
i’m subscribed to alot of pua email lists. and i have YET to read anything that impresses me. I continue to be disturbed by all of it.
that doesn’t mean that i don’t hear some of you saying that you’ve been helped by it. but i don’t understand why shyness, lack of confidence, previous trauma, or lack of information about women’s anatomy could not have been solved and addressed in healthier ways without all the pua abusive bs.
d
I think people should be required to attend certain educational trainings before they get married or have children.
and i think marriages should have written legal contracts that spell out things covering:
sexual fidelity
all forms of abuse
mutual financial responsiiblity (including the points LR made about if someone is the homemaker)
and respect – meaning – that there are two adult humans in the marriage. conflicts should be handled using sound, proven conflict resolution methods.
the feelings and needs of both need to be reasonably and equally considered.
I include “reasonably” b/c it is NOT reasonable to say “I have a need to sleep with other peple” and expect to remain in the marriage.
also, b/c an unhealty person who believes s/he has a right to control another might say “I have a need to tell you what to wear every day”.
this is not a reasonable need.
Or, an unhealthy person might say “I have a need to keep you in your place, on your knees, worshiping cock”. Also not a reasonable need.
perhaps if such contracts and mandatory education were in place, there wouldn’t be so many failed marriages and strains on taxpayer dollars and crowded courts.
I’m sure though that if such contracts were in place that legally spelled out what equality means – roissy and the mras would be crying out about how such things are “gynocentric” and persecute men.
I make this point b/c I do think that the anger and frustration that LR and I express is directly commensurate with the degree of “off-balance-ness” of the statements we see from puas and mras:
i repeat:
there are an alarming number of men on those blogs saying:
put women back in their places
women should not vote
women are less intelligent and less capable than men
women have no morals
most or all women are sluts
women enjoy hurting men
i don’t know if any men posting here are Black, but if you are (and if you’re not) please ask yourself how you’d feel about a blogger who said those same things about Black people instead of women.
Would you read that blog b/c the writing is so good? would you post on it? Would you enthusiastically agree with some of it?
or, would you be offended, alarmed, and frightened that the blogger had a large and loyal following of posters who said, “yeah, i totally agree; all those XXXX are horrible. we need to rise up and control them b/c of x y and z.
IT IS THE SAME THING.
This is SO clear to us and it is very frustrating when this is not clear to others.
Denise
Roissy:
Now to call Roissy out on a few things. I won’t always agree with everything you ladies have said, esp you Denise but here goes:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/im-saving-myself-for-an-asshole/
A. Agree in words, but not in action : Not abusive if you keep doing things she has already approved and do not continue to do something she has verbally refused. In other words, his example of rubbing the breast is not abusive per-se. She can always ratchet her approval down rather than back up. HOWEVER definitely abusive if she says not to say, rub her clitoris and you agree but start doing so anyway.
B. Seduce her: Well it should matter that many if not most ladies enjoy this. However this IS an attempted manipulation, and its conscious. I suppose this could be ok if you start out this way, and she enjoys the emotional ride so much she gets aroused due to that alone. Trying this on a woman who is already partly aroused is morally problematic b/c if you do it right she will have a hard time resisting your advance, because she will not only be sexually aroused from earlier, but now you’ve got her emotions involved.
C Pre-empt her: I see absolutely nothing wrong with this at all.
D: Freeze Her out: Depends on whether you are doing so b/c you wish to avoid trouble with someone who might be cockteasing you or if you are deliberately seeing if your indifference makes her bite.
In my opinion, however, none of this qualifies as sexual assault except A – If you ignore her already expressed boundaries.
LMR is problematic but it is true that many women do not want to feel “easy”. Some call this a Slut Shield. A little bit of persistance on the man’s part is probably necessary. However there’s a rule I think might work: 3 strikes and your out. No matter how much you cajole or beg or plead if she says no a total of 3 times, give up for the night. You aren’t convincing her, and you can’t ignore a no.
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/creepy-children/
I find any accusation that Roissy advocates pedophilia disgusting. You must separate Roissy from his commenters and FEW of them made any bad remarks. Roissy’s whole point in this post is that the children creeped him out and that parents were misusing them in such a way. Yes, it’s true that 16is legal for adults in some states and that 17, for instance is legal for prostitution in Germany. Roissy in no way advocated sexually abusing these children and pointing out that perverts might look at them in a few years..heck real perverts look at them now.. was simply a warning for parents. Indeed this is one of the few posts ever on Roissy’s site where the females were definitely under 16.. These kids are maybe ten to twelve.
On the Hitting Post:
Well this has been covered by others, such as Hugh, but I will say this:
Roissy is not wrong to say that quite a few women get turned on by violent displays no matter how uncomfortable this may make people feel. Erin Prizzy, the founder of the shelter movement in Britain , found that a good 1/3 or so of her female clients seemed to be as violent as the men they were with and /or to repeatedly seek out violent relationships.
He’s wrong to have hit his girlfriend, no matter how much she may have deserved it, unless it was self defense. I make an exception for consensual discipline in bdsm relationships, but that’s not what is being talked about here. I don’t think Roissy has a a pattern in his private life of hitting women for any reason, however I do wish to state expressly that what Roissy did was wrong.
MOST of the treatment Roissy gave LadyRaine was wrong. Some of it was deserved in my opinion. Most was not. Still LR was no shrinking violet.
I castigated Roissy once for his treatment of her, and I also once told her I wish he had spanked her more. The cruelest thing I think he ever did was the porno post and claiming that might be her. I think that was about the time when he put the Myspace pic of her son up there was cruel commentary- not about the child, but about what kind of mother LadyRaine was. That’s why I don’t mind the Lady’s revenge for the most part.
I could say more. I do disagree that women shouldn’t be able to vote, even though I think when they got the right it was inevitable due to different psychologies between the sexes that they would tend to vote more “statist” at least when they are single, which many women are today.
I am not a big fan of all the rights females have in reproduction consdiering they are almost never stuck with the responsibilities for their choices. While abortion should remain legal I think men should have some say into whether they want to be fathers.
I disagree with Roissy on many political subjects but since he is not being attacked for political stances for the most part it wouldn’t do for me to list disagreements here.
Ahh!
Denise! Didn’t think you’d be here already.
Yes, indeed, I meant IN THE FANTASY the men who rape the woman who is fantasizing are almost always her “type” of men.
By the way, Denise:
It took me a long time to really understand how women could have rape fantasies.
There is a disturbing part about it. A rapist who just happens to look like her fantasy or fullfills most of the pleasureable aspects of it MIGHT be forgiven by the woman and not prosecuted.
However since women’s rape fantasy men tend to resemble real rapists not much at all in both mannerisms and looks this helps explain why women can be so devasted by rape – EVEN those who have rape fantasies. For the majority of women who don’t have rape fantasies -the 60 or 70 percent – part of the terror of rape is the loss of control. For those with rape fantasies I think it’s not just loss of control over their bodies but also the fact that something very private about them – a fantasy about a specific forceful sex act with a specific type of man – has been sullied. Add to the fact that they probably blame themselves for havign rape fantasies ..and it can be very hard.
Clarence–
Did u not see Roissy’s post entitled “MILF beats DILF”? He was forced to remove it by wordpress.
The girl and mother in the photos were the topic of roissys sexual discussion and his commentors. The girl in the photo could not have been older than 14. The commentors apparently agreed because they spoke graphically about how “how hot young girls are” and there were many descriptive and graphic comments including “well see you just keep a thumb on her around 12 and start priming her for sex around age 16 when she’s ripe” and there were also GRAPHIC descriptions of what the male posters would MAKE the daughter to the mother and to them. This was not “a few comments that were questionable….it was many many lewd, disturbing, and nauseating comments that would even make a Serial Killer feel woozy.
You do NOT consider that “pedophilia”? His post was ABOUT how for once he wanted to “fuck the mother and not the much younger daughter” so its not like it was a different subject that somehow went out of control.
Those comments really and truly made me so nauseous that I could not bear to read through them. I only copied and pasted 3 total comments to the WordPress mederators and the post was gone in about an hour.
That makes TWO posts with young girls and graphic sexual descriptions. And then he poisted my son’s photo. Do you find it acceptable as a human for any child molestor to be able to watch some porn, talk about sex, and look at some innoceent kids all in the same context?
Furthermore, what if the many sexual deviants there had decided they liked the looks of my son and thought maybe they’d come and find him?
You would NOT in that case think Roissy was responsible for inciting that?
Would YOU allow a photo of your young daughter to be posted on his blog even if there was nothing but the photo posted? Would ANY of you gentlemen permit Roissy to post your daughter’s photos there? I think not. The reasons are obvious.
As for “women don’t have any responsibility in reproduction”??? Excuse me?
Who is the person who has to carry the child for 9 months? Who has to go through the pain of labor (and the still very real dangers)? Who has to make a painful decision to give up a baby for adoption long after the man has run off and forgotten it like yesterday’s news? Who has to make the decision to have an abortion and find the $700.00 to pay for it? And most importantly WHO is the person who is given custody of the child whther they WANT it or can HANDLE it or not?
The woman, that’s who.
Now what are the many reponsibilities the men are given in which they have no choice?
Child support. A check in the mail just like you are paying the cable bill.
ONE thing. That’s what a man has to worry about when a child is conceived.
WOMEN are given ALL the other above-listed responsibilities PLUS will STILL have the larger portion of the financial responsibility on top of it.
Abortion is a major surgery that is traumatic, painful, experience. You see that as an “easy out”???
Well then I guess we ladies should consider your birth control “option” of having a less expensive, less invasive, and reversable Vasectomy as an “unfair birth control advantage” too, huh?
You points on women NOT having the major responsibility in reproduction is RIDICULOUS in every way imaginable and is something that I cannot believe that you could say with a straight face.
Once a man has impregnated a woman…..his only worry is that he may have to send a check.
Compared up against the long list of traumas, financial burden, medical procedures, adoption, labor, abortion, gestation, custody, and the actual RAISING of the child are the things women have “worry about” the moment a child is conceived.
Do you want to tell me again how “women have it easy” in reproductive rights???
We are told to either carry, birth, and give away the baby and “get over it” or go have the fetus sucked out and extinguish its “life” and then have your uterus scraped out with a knife to make sure no “body parts” were missed…..and you have the balls to say that WE are the ones who have it easy????
And then the only other option: Have the baby and raise it alone and MAYBE someday you will get a check in the mail from the father if they ever catch him or even try. Meanwhile he can go on to live his life uninterupted. He can go have sex with someone new the next day. He can sign off all his right and pretend the child never existed.
Can the mother do that? No. Because even when a woman has an abortion they do an ULTRA SOUND. The woman is forced to listen to the heartbeat and SEE the image of their soon to be dead “fetus”.
Does the man have to live that abhorrant horror? Will it haunt his dreams like hers? Will he hear the babies cries for help (in her mind) like she will?
No. He just walks. He just moves on. Women do not even HAVE the option. They cannot just “walk away” from any of it.
You need to take a good, long, look at what you said and what responsibilities ARE given to women and realize how lucky you are that your only worry is a monetary one.
game is not different. It’s a series of methods whose sole purpose is to impair her logic, awareness of her feelings and needs, and trick her into sex she otherwise would not want.
i consider that rape.
I don’t agree.
“Trick her into sex she would otherwise not want?
But the definition of rape is coerced sex. Not unwanted sex, and not sex she does want for WHATEVER reason.
Unwanted sex may be sex you don’t feel like but you do it anyway b/c you love your partner, for instance. Let’s say you have not had sex with your partner for two weeks and you have a mild headache. Let’s say farthermore that your partner has been understanding for two weeks – many times you both wanted to, but you were too busy, etc. If you decide that asking your partner to forgo it yet again is not fair to them and would be worse than having sex you were unable to be totally thrilled with..have you been RAPED?!
Now sex you were “tricked” into. I can think of several situations where a lady or gent may fool his/herself into thinking or assuming something about the other person that is not true. If they do not ask, and are not lied to, indeed if the person they have sex with ISNT EVEN AWARE THAT THEY ARE HAVING SEX WITH HIM/HER BASED ON A FALSE ASSUMPTION – am I to assume a rape has occured? You can be a rapist without knowing it?
What the heck? Who are you to tell women or men what they want? If you are using rape to describe things like I’ve pointed to above, no wonder you consider Roissy a monster.
If I ever raped a woman Denise she would have NO say in the matter. If she was unconscious she couldn’t consent. No say. If I held a gun to her head she couldn’t refuse me and she’d have no say. Rape is having no say, not saying yes and regretting it later.
I have to ask this Denise:
When you have sex with a man do you always go thru some mental list in your head and make some logical choice about it? Or do you pay attention to how you feel?
I’d say your feelings are entirely out of your control and are partly evolutionarily based so that certain things a man would do would attract you. you presumably have free will as to how you react to your feelings, so I’m afraid the fact that a guy learning seduction techniques can elicit certain feelings in you doesn’t get you off the hook and him ON the hook for how you react to it.
Somewhere in all this there is a misunderstanding, but one of the main ones I’m sure is that you are just using rape and other terms of abuse in extremely wide ways -which not only seem to demonize lots of men, but also seem to trivialize things such as rape.
Hi, Clarence,
good to see you. i really have to force myself to go to bed early (soon) tonight – but i think i can provide some insight into the whole rape fantasy thing.
There is a huge difference between having no control and having no idea if you’ll be killed or otherwise harmed in a real rape than there is in a fantasy or even acting out such a fantasy with a safe person.
the enormous difference if the safety of the person.
and i do believe the fantasy is about feeling SAFE in giving up control to someone who the woman KNOWS and TRUSTS will not actually harm her in any way.
Another way to characterize this would be to – instead of calling it a rape fantasy to call it a negotiation between two lovers about consenting levels of dominance and submission.
I actually have much more respect for what I know of those involved in the BDSM world (with exceptions of course) than I do for men who use PUA – b/c at least in the BDSM world they are very clear about what acceptable boundaries are and EACH PERSON MUST define those boundaries for him or her self.
There is NO undue influence, no trickery, no attempts to control others’ minds or choices or boundaries and there are safe words and in some cases written contracts about what can and cannot happen.
HUGE difference.
My take on rape fantasies is that they are really mis-named. Both men and women (not all but many) have fantasies of having varying degress of dominance or submission. When men have fantasies of being dominated by a woman, we don’t call these rape fantasies.
We call them fantasies of being dominated by a woman. I believe for men it’s the same thing, though, (and I may be wrong about this) I do not think for men there is as much of the same kind of “charge” as there is for women for these reasons:
1. There is something taboo for many women to tell a man they want to be dominated. (not for all women though – there are many women who fully embrace their sexuality and who fully accept and respect and embrace their fantasies and have no shame about saying what they want).
2. There is something that is still considered “naughty” for many women to assert any sexual desire or specific fantasy. My take on this is that this is a very unfortunate effect of our history in pretending that women are not the sexual creatures we in fact are.
3. Because the reality of almost all women’s lives includes a real and legitimate fear of rape that does influence our daily (or more likely, nightly) decisions about where we go, who we go with, how we get there, how we get home, if we drink. how much we drink. what part of town we go to, what time we arrive and leave, what kind of shoes we wear, etc.), There is something – also in the taboo range – that relates to this very real fear.
4. Ultimately I do think these fantasies are very driven by a woman’s need to feel SAFE. It’s about creating a scenario in which a woman can enjoy the experience of being dominated by someone whom she knows and trusts to not actually harm her, who will clearly understand what she likes and doesn’t and what her limits are and are not – and who will then stick to that and not go rogue and be dominant or assertive with her in any way other than what she has made clear will please her.
This is a HUGE difference from the evil roissy (and those who have written storeis on his blog) encouraging men to hit women and say it turns them on.
Doing something like that without first getting the woman’s consent and being clear about what the boundaries are and AREN’T and being clear that both people are comfortable with such things and that there is enough trust between each other- is just stupid.
It’s a huge gamble. and the stakes are high given that if it is not welcomed and he has “read her signals” wrong – he will likely face assault charges.
This is only one example of how r’s advice to men is also very harmful to men, not just to women.
LR:
I saw the MILF vs DILF post and I honestly thought the girl was anywhere from 16 to 19.
I didn’t disagree with the decision to take it down, but I never thought she was 14?!. I’m reading the rest of your post, now, but just understand something: Roissy has had to take multiple posts of girls who might have been underage down well before he met you because he had a policy where if anyone would point out that they thought someone might be younger than legal age he would take it down as a precaution. I see no reason to demonize the man more than he deserves.
LR EDIT: You do realize that you just admitted that Roissy has had to take down posts of minors again and again and again. Clearly, he is aware that it is a sensitive issue and YET he STILL posts the photos….leaves them up a little while….and then takes them down once it is out on the net forever. You don’t find that a little odd? Wouldn’t you think that an intelligent man like Roissy would think “Hmmm I definitely don’t want to be considered a Child Molester so maybe I shouldn’t post any photos of young girls anymore.”? He clearly KNOWS it’s an issue, KNOWS he is posting it, and KNOWS that it is wrong and is STILL posting them whenever he can.
He did not remove them “by choice”. I reported his posts and comments directly to wordpress and it would be pretty coincidental that he just “happened” to take them down within the hour I reported them to the Word Press Moderators.
Additionaly, a woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth has workplace and earning issues as well:
She will need an amount of time off for regular check ups, she may often need some form of disability accommodation in the weeks or months leading up to the birth, she WILL need short term disability time off after the birth of the chlid, and she will need to deal with FMLA forms with her doctors (who frequently fill them out wrong creating delays in her getting paid by either employers or disability companies), and she’ll then need her employer to be flexible with her schedule for the next 18 years, assuming she is going to be a responsible parent who will care for the child when s/he is sick, attend to school issues, and all the other millions of things good parents do.
AND, her body will be changed (not for all but for most women) and if she’s read these pua blogs she will know that there is a disturbing percentage of men out there who will rate her on a degrading numeric scale, caring more about her appearance than her devotion to her child whom she loves (whether they know about that child or not).
LR:
About your son:
Roissy NEVER GAVE YOUR ADDRESS. WHEN others on his blog and you confronted him he was shamed..yes SHAMED into taking the pic of your son down. He certainly *nor the MAJORITY of commenters* wished any harm to your son. The worst hurtful thing I did was say he had a tramp for a mother and crap like that – meant to hurt YOU. How sorry they were for him to have YOU for a mother. All this was juvenile, unfair, hurtful and I do not defend it at all. But kindly stop trying to rewrite history as if you believe that Roissy would want some thugs to beat up you or your son and as if the majority of his posts were all about 14 year old and younger girls and how “doable they were” and how all the comments were “I’d hit it” and other pedophilic statements that make the people on “B” at 4chan look refined and morally pure. I think its fair to Jim to say he never deliberaly and knowingly put a less than legal girl on his site for his own prurient purposes. Really, this is like pulling teeth. There’s plenty of things to dislike about Roissy, but the guy isn’t the Boogeyman, he isn’t a rapist or pedo, and he probably is a bit more succesful with women than you will so graciously (not at ALL that pasty faced LOOOOOOOOOOSER to paraphrase you)allow. Now that’s my last word on the subject of Roissy, at least for tonight.
ACK..that should read
The worst hateful thing he I saw that he did..
Just what I’d need right now. To be mistaken for Roissy. But then you’ve known me long enough to see that I don’t write anywhere near that level.
Denise said:
I’ve written about growing up being ashamed of expressing sexual interest in women, and being shy and sexually invisible in high school while watching the girls chase stereotypically masculine guys.
I wish you luck.
Oh, I didn’t mean to imply that I think otherwise. Gwallan originally said that your approach could be harmful and alienating to male survivors of abuse. You wondered why. Then you went and proved his point by saying that you didn’t “have a problem” with what Elin did to Tiger, i.e. you didn’t have a problem with an instance of female-on-male violence. If that statement was representative of your attitude towards female-on-male abuse, if would prove him right.
Now, you’ve later clarified that you do have a problem with her behavior on both a moral and emotional level. I’m glad to see you thinking about what biases might lead you to sympathize more easily with Elin than you would with Tiger if the genders were reversed.
Thank you for posting your story… it helps me understand where you are coming from. I am very sorry to hear what happened to you.
I agree that some particular techniques and attitudes, particularly around “LMR” (Last Minute Resistance) are misguided and display a reckless attitude towards consent and mutuality.
PUAs are walking a constant moral tightrope. Since men are culturally placed in the role of initiators, certain moral dilemmas fall on men’s shoulders. Two of the dilemmas is whether a man must move quickly or slowly making the sexual initiatives in a certain situation, and how hard he must work to ensure mutuality. Men often fear to greater or less degrees that if they move too slow, or act too hesitantly in making initiatives, they will get rejected in favor of another guy less scruples (to what extent these fears are well-founded is another question, but they are not at all crazy). As a result, men must constantly do a moral balancing act in their interactions with women, and sometimes—such as in the case of certain techniques in the seduction community—they get this balance wrong.
I think we should return to this topic after we’ve all talked more about women’s preferences, and the reasonableness of the various beliefs PUAs have about them.
As for “isolation,” the use of that word is creepy, but it’s just the mundane concept of getting more privacy. For two people to start getting to each other on a more intimate level (whether emotionally, sexually, or both), they need to have some form of privacy or be alone. Guess who’s job it usually is to make that happen? The guy’s. “Isolation” (aka “getting more privacy”) is only recommended when the woman is attracted to the guy and feeling comfortable with him.
Have you ever been talking to a guy in club and wanting to take things to the next level (whatever that might be) but his drunk friends keep interrupting the conversation? It just doesn’t work.
I think I can help us understand where we’re not connecting on this:
“But the definition of rape is coerced sex. Not unwanted sex, and not sex she does want for WHATEVER reason.”
You’re missing something crucial in the sentence above.
You’re missing the part about whether the woman wants to have sex WITH THAT PARTICULAR MAN.
Most women don’t choose who to sleep with just based on horniness alone.
Yes, that may be part of it, and when you’re in a relationship and you know your partner well and you’re having and enjoying a sex life, sure – the “who” part is already settled (unless there is deception in the relationship and so you can’t really be sure “who” that other person is – but that’s another matter that relates to fidelity and other issues like hawaii dave).
When the “who” is not settled and women are out for fun and are approached by men, I really don’t know many women outside of the bubble of college experiences and the rare choice – who will sleep with a man after just having met him.
It goes back to very legitimate issues of safety not just around physical or sexual violence but about STDs and wanting to make sure he is respectful, kind, compatible, bf material, husband material, whatever any woman’s standards are for whatever her current situation is. She may or may not want to assess him for father material as well.
Learning those things about another person TAKES TIME – and it takes learning about the other person in a variety of situations – happy times, stressful times, during conflict, etc.
Therefore, the elements of game that intentionally try to speed up this process or entirely circumvent it – are serious ethical problems.
game is deisgned specifically to try to override those very important and self-protective filters that women have FOR GOOD REASONS.
Don’t you think that women’s rights to make sure they’re sharing their bodies, hearts, minds, time, energy, and physical health with are more important than a man’s desire to get laid?
l
Women have sexual frustration also. I can only speak for myself and other women I know – if we are not in a relationship, we simply masturbate. End of story. Sure it can be frustrating and it can be lonely.
And if human contact is craved on top of orgasm, there are friends (of either sex) for hugs, there are massages (which are often better than sex with many men who don’t understand women’s sexual anatomy), and there is exercise to burn it off.
d
Clarence, a woman is traumatized by rape because it is the most violent assault of her body and the only thing a person truly owns….their soul.
It is NOT about sex for them. It is not only for “ugly” men who cannot get laid.
Many many rapists are successful, attractive married men who have beautiful wives.
Those men do not rape because they want sex. They do not STOP raping even if they are getting laid 3 times per day.
A rapist is not sexually satisfied by consensual sex even if its with a Supermodel. That is what makes them a rapist and that is what makes it about “power”.
I have heard men (like Roissy for example) state that its not about power and that women wouldn’t get raped as much if they’d stop withholding sex or if they stopped “teasing” men.
This is not only a horrifying attitude, but Psychologically false in every way.
A rapist would not turn around and go home on his way to rape a woman even if 10 women dropped their panties and offered him sex on the way. He doesn’t want it “given to him”….he wants to take it from someone so that he can violate, control, and dehumanize her.
Women are JUST as terrified and traumatized if the rapist is “attractive”. And I think your comments about rape makes it sound like you think its traumatizing like a car accident or a painful divorce.
It is not.
I can honestly say that if a man tried to rape me at my age, I would rather kill myself right then and there than allow him to ENJOY dehumanizing me and murdering my soul. He would get no “satisfaction” from me unless he also happened to be into Necrophilia.
I don’t think you understand that most women would rather be brutally murdered than raped and left to live with it. The women who DID live through the rape often wish that the rapist had killed them because how do you just “live” after that?
You don’t. You are never the same. The world looks so shallow and dark and you want to scream “how can you just get up and go to work and go on with your life when my very body doesn’t even belong to me? Can’t you see my soul is gone? Can’t you see that I have nothing now? Not even my body will ever feel like mine again. No sex will ever feel “right” again. No “love” will ever feel pure again. Nothing can ever be the same”
And then men like Roissy and the MRAs laugh and joke about it? Say she could have just “tried to enjoy it”??? Says the rape laws are “unfair”?
Like Denise once said: how many men have to think each day how to avoid being sexually assaulted? Raped? Murdered? Taken and tortured for years like many sadistic murderers do? Chained up in basements and used like a tissue over and over?
How often do you have to think about those things? Avoid them? Watch for signs? Check your locks a million times because you know that a rapist or murderer could be waiting in your bedroom or shower? Have your doctor sexually assault you while you’re “under”? Worry that the cable man is in your home alone with you and looks like he likes you a little too much? Knowing that every time a strange man leers at you on the street, he could decide to just come and take what he wants whenever he wants? Do you honestly think about those things every day because those threats are so real? So likely? So common?
Most men don’t think about that daily if EVER.
Women have to and DO think about it numerous times each day and not because she’s paranoid, but because its a very real, very common, and very terrifying threat to all women.
Do you honestly think any woman has gone through the day without fear even once? They haven’t. Women have to deal with and internalize that every day of their lives and its really not a very “free and priviledged life”.
Countless rapes still go unreported and STILL 1 in 3 women will be raped in their lifetime. Repeat that to yourself….1 in 3.
Imagine if you knew every day of your life that you only have about a 68% chance of NOT having a penis in your ass by force. A penis in your mouth by force. Inanimate objects inserted in your body.
Think about that.
Imagine having to be GRATEFUL each day that those things DON’T happen to you because they happen to so many others and always will.
Really, I ask ALL men to think about that when you make light of women’s seemingly irrational fears and worries when dating and about becoming sexual with you.
How do you feel about “coercing and pushing” her into sex now? Do you feel it makes their fears lessen? Or do you think it will make women MORE fearful and suspicious of a man and his advances? Do you think it will help women to start to trust the “good men” who SAY they are not rapists when you behave in a manner like that?
I know the answer and so does every other woman on earth regardless of age, looks, race, or religion.
C-
I knew you didn’t mean the error that was written.
see, we’re making progress!
d
“ACK..that should read
The worst hateful thing he I saw that he did..
Just what I’d need right now. To be mistaken for Roissy. But then you’ve known me long enough to see that I don’t write anywhere near that level.”
Hi, Hugh,
Good to hear from you.
Re: “I’m glad to see you thinking about what biases might lead you to sympathize more easily with Elin than you would with Tiger if the genders were reversed.”
Yes, I really am. Thanks.
“Thank you for posting your story… it helps me understand where you are coming from. I am very sorry to hear what happened to you.”
Thank you for your sensitivity and empathy.
Thank you for saying this (below) again. You’ve said it before, but I do feel we need more male voices saying this in this discussion b/c there are still many men with whom we are having good discussion who just do not seem to see this point.
Do you have any guidance for us in trying to make this clear to them?
“I agree that some particular techniques and attitudes, particularly around “LMR” (Last Minute Resistance) are misguided and display a reckless attitude towards consent and mutuality.”
“PUAs are walking a constant moral tightrope. Since men are culturally placed in the role of initiators, certain moral dilemmas fall on men’s shoulders.”
I think we need to change the rules about approach. why can’t women also approach men? I’ve done it and my friends have done it.
again, seems to me some cultural norms need to change.
d
LR, Thank you for your recent post about rape and reminding us all in this discussion that rape is about POWER and not sex.
And maybe this will help create more understanding of why we find pua methods so unethical and seriously dangerous.
But first I want to address a question Clarence asked which is important:
“Can I rape someone without knowing it?”
YES YOU CAN and many men do – not because they want to but because they have really FALSE ideas which are perpetuated by many PUA courses and MRA groups and sites, such as:
No means yes
LMR
She really wants it or she wouldn’t be dressed like that/out so late/wearing so much makeup, etc.
You’re not a man if you don’t score
You’re a loser if your technique doesn’t get you to certain close with her
and most disturbingly – which may not be explicitly said but is subtext for all of this and for most PUA teachings:
IT IS YOUR RIGHT TO LAY HER IN USING WHATEVER MEANS YOU CAN
Do you see how disturbing this is?
This is why it’s about power. This is why we SO VEHEMENTLY OPPOSE the use of anything that tries to ignore, circumvent, override, or jam a woman’s RIGHT TO HER SOUND DECISION-MAKING PROCESSES AND ABILITIES!!!!
do you see that if Game just taught men who to improve their appearances, their grooming and hygiene, their approaches, made them read “She Comes First” by Ian Kerner (which is an excellent book about how to please a woman sexually) and read “The Guide to Getting it On” (which is an excellent book for men and women) and then taught HEALTHY relationship skills such as:
self-awareness, having healthy boundaries, good communication and conflict resolution skills, being comfortable with and knowing who you really are as a person, knowing what you want and what you don’t want……
We would fully endorse game!!!
But that is NOT what it’s about. Even it’s teaching some of that, it’s missing the most important parts of that list above and instead it’s teaching men they have a right to try to sleep with as many women as they can using whatever means they can with complete disregard for her feelings, needs, concerns, and decision-making processes.
This is an industry which have clevery but unethically discovered a profitable market of men who need help with women and who instead of teaching healthy things to men, teaches UNHEALTHY things to men, which is harmful to both men and women.
I’ve learned from Clarence, Huge, Daran and some other men that there are some things that some game teachers teach that are not sinister.
But, I’ve yet to see ONE game school that doesn’t have the sinister and unethical stuff in it. And I have done and still am doing alot of research.
Even things like “anchoring” and all that crap is UNETHICAL.
whenever you’re trying to speed it up from the time a woman really needs to decide about you or whenever you’re trying to provide false information to her about who you are and what you want and whenver you are trying influence her decisions using anything deceptive – THAT IS AN ABUSE OF POWER.
d
“Therefore, the elements of game that intentionally try to speed up this process or entirely circumvent it – are serious ethical problems.”
I agree. And this shows you are trying to get your points across rather than making blanket statements and not backing them up. However:
“game is deisgned specifically to try to override those very important and self-protective filters that women have FOR GOOD REASONS.”
Where is game mostly being used, Denise?
CLUBS and other venues that women go with *for many and probably most of them* the express purpose of hooking up with men -usually for a one night stand! The women themselves are deciding they want to do something risky. And they want to do it with a charming or exciting guy.
Daygame is a bit different and does NOT rely so much on the same type of techniques. Indeed, day game is recommended more for people that want LTR and other things. But irresepctive of the difference between the two types of game, I find you attacking people for a bunch of techniques designed to work on girls who are mostly out to get picked up or pick someone else up themselves as pretty hypocritical. Most of the women in clubs aren’t blushing virgins looking for Mr. Right. They are looking for Mr. Right Now.
“Don’t you think that women’s rights to make sure they’re sharing their bodies, hearts, minds, time, energy, and physical health with are more important than a man’s desire to get laid?”
Why not ask me how often I beat my wife while you are at it?
PUA’s aren’t in your monthly psychological association membership group trying to pick you and your friends up Denise. Most PUA’s are in bars and nightclubs trying to pick up young girls to 30ish women who are used to playing guys and who very much want to have some fun with the right psychosocially dominant male. That’s their choice. I don’t think its wise for many women to act as they do, but thats where most of the action is if you are not looking for an LTR.
Clarence,
two things:
I’m not sure if they still have them, but the group Men Stopping Rape used to print excellent posters (about 10) that asked that very question: Can a man rape a woman without knowing it or meaning to?
the answer is yes. I have to go through my papers anyway over the next few weeks so when I find them, I’ll post their wording.
I do think there is a MSR group in DC – if you want to check it out.
The other thing I want to ask you is:
You said that we know you don’t write on the level that R. does.
What is your understanding of how roissy writes? I’d like to hear how you think of that.
Thanks
i really must go to sleep now.
d
LadyRaine:
Men are more often the victims of violent assault and violent deaths than women so please get off your Victimization HIgh Horse. I live in a bad neighborhood. I can assure you I have to think about death every day despite the fact that I’m a man. I was mugged once. The guy pointed a gun at me. I can assure you my life flashed before my eyes.
LR EDIT: Clarence you are basically listing here things that women ALSO have to worry about in ADDITION to the daily and very real threat of rape. It’s not like the crimes you are referencing here are specific to men. Women have to worry about all the things I previously mentioned AND the types of crimes you have listed here and that is why I don’t understand the point you are trying to make with that statement.
Some of your rape stats are goofy *not all of them* but I’d rather not get into that right now.
LR EDIT: They are not MY rape stats. They are official statistics taken from actual Criminal Statistics of prosecuted rape. One in THREE women WILL be raped in their lifetime. That is NOT a very good chance of NOT getting raped. That is why I said “How would you feel knowing that you ONLY had a 67% chance of NOT having a dick in your ass every single day that you get up and go to work?”
Rape sucks, but other things can be just as soul destroying. Do you deny that, or do you want me to give you examples?
LR EDIT: No, I do not disagree with you, but I think saying “Rape sucks” is pretty dismissive of something very serious. I think the most heinous of all crimes are ANY crimes that involved Children of ANY gender. Hands down, no contest, no questions asked. I would rather endure hundreds of rapes than see even ONE child be molested, assaulted, kidnapped, or murdered. No doubt in my mind.
I think you are totally off and one-sided in your views about reproduction but once again..that’s not really this discussion. I will say and you should be happy that with only a few tweaks we could make things more fair for all involved, but then I remember that you seem to think that all women have it is bad, bad , bad when it comes to kids, and I wonder if I should bother listing my ideas.
LR EDIT: I am not “one-sided” I am presenting EXACTLY what the facts ARE. A woman has absolutely NO OPTION of walking away from an unwanted pregnancy. NONE. Men do and can. That alone is a VERY REAL difference in “choice” and “freedom in reproductive rights”. A woman MUST either carry the child, end the pregnancy with a traumatic, expensive, and painful invasive surgery, or carry the child for nine months, go through labor, and give the child up for adoption. A woman never EVER gets to “walk away” from an unwanted pregnancy. I don’t see what fallacy you can find in that statement.
Anyway, thanks for discussing the Roissy thing. Insofar as anything online has hurt you – and I know from your own words and actions that things on here hardly ever do- I think some of your experiences with him have been the worst. Thanks for not censoring nor being unfair to me as a commenter. I’ll type more tomorrow. I have to go to bed myself
LR EDIT: Do you mean an actual real life event? Nope not a one. Fortunately my “real life” friends, family, and even employers (yes one of my previous supervisors reads here and has even commented once here) know me and know that none of Roissy’s allegations (or anyone else’s) could be true in ANY way.
However if you mean generally, yes I have received MANY threats of actual physical violence against me, my son, and my family in the form of emails and comments and sometimes even messages on myspace. I do not concern myself with that too much, I just take the necessary precautions to make sure that no one (except perhaps the FBI or a top notch hacker) can find any “good and current” information on where to find me, where I work, etc.
One final thing:
After years of thinking about this I am sure that some rape is mostly about power and some is mostly about sex and that there is always a sexual undercurrrent involved even if its a sadistic one. The feminist version of it’s all about power is too simplistic. And that’s my last word on that LR.
To LR haters, why do you post here?
You might say all you think about her but posting on here site validates her position. If you believe your views are in some way better then hers, you are upgrading this site. A big thanks from her I guess!
haha
Medical Defintion of Rape:
Please note this part: “Date rape is a sexual assault in which the victim is psychologically pressured…..before the rape.” (below).
“
Definition of Rape
Rape: Forced sexual intercourse; sexual assault; sexual intercourse between an adult and a minor. Rape may be heterosexual (involving members of opposite sexes) or homosexual (involving members of the same sex). Rape involves insertion of an erect penis or an inanimate object into the female vagina or the male anus. Legal definitions of rape may also include forced oral sex and other sexual acts.
Heterosexual rape usually refers to an assault in which a male forces himself upon a female, and homosexual rape usually refers to an assault in which a male forces himself upon another male. However, both terms (heterosexual and homosexual rape) have been used to refer to an assault in which a female forces herself upon a male or a female.
Sexual intercourse between an adult and a minor is known legally as statutory rape. The adult can be found guilty of statutory rape even if the minor was a willing partner.
Gang rape is a sexual assault in which several persons force themselves upon a victim.
Date rape is a sexual assault in which the victim is psychologically pressured, drugged or sedated before the rape. Date rape is so-named because it often involves a dating couple. The male may spike a female’s alcoholic beverage, making her unable to resist his advances or even unable to remember the rape.
Would-be date rapists have used sleeping pills to sedate their intended victims.
In addition to adding sleep-inducing medications to alcohol, date rapists also have combined them with marijuana, cocaine and other drugs.
Rape can also occur in a marriage. Typically, the husband forces himself on his wife at a time when she is unwilling to have sexual intercourse.
Victims of rape suffer physical and mental trauma.
Physical trauma may include cuts, bruises and abrasions in the pelvic area as well as elsewhere on the body.
Mental trauma may include overwhelming feelings of humiliation, embarrassment and defilement.
Rape victims should seek treatment at a hospital. There, doctors and nurses can treat the injuries, administer antibiotics to prevent sexually- transmitted diseases, and provide counseling or any other additional therapy (mental or physical) that the patient requires.
The hospital team’s evaluation and report will help document the condition of the patient for legal purposes.
“Rape” is derived from the Latin word “rapere” (to seize).
Last Editorial Review: 1/26/2000
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/08/how-to-lead-an-empty-romantic-existence.html
Ahh, old Conner Friedsdorf.
You are free to google that name if you wish and see how the pickup community dealt with his arguments such as they were. Whilst doing that, you might want to google Amanda Marcotte and Duke Rape case. I suppose ol Conner didn’t know that Mandy was kicked off the Edwards team due to some very interesting thoughts when it came to catholics and the Duke 3.
See why some of this criticism is old hat to us?
is he jewish or italian?
LR EDIT: In truth I don’t think either. According to some emails I’ve gotten from people who ALLEGE they are “childhood friends or enemies”, they say that Roissy has some German (LR is ashamed to be German whilst saying that) and definitely Catholic (albeit non-practicing). But I am not entirely sure. He could also be Italian or Jewish I suppose.
Roissy has some SERIOUS ISSUES -
[...] “Next, be vigilant about your encroaching neediness. Oh Satan below, do Ingenues despise needy men. It will take a lot of willpower, but you should occasionally cancel dates on her and, when sex is imminent, find some excuse to walk away, leaving her horny and unsatisfied. Ingenues love the father figure (are fathers needy? no), so play up those strengths — be her authority, lead, slap her when necessary, playfully dismiss her juvenile provocations, and always be prepared to lay down the law. This last will often mean walking away from her never looking back. [...]
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/how-to-handle-femmes-fatales-part-2a/
With his allusions and references to violence (and the occult), let us hope that he is now going through a soul-searching epiphany and realizing how downright creepy, and *evil*, he has been for too darn long.
Roissy, if nothing else, save your soul.
LR EDIT: I agree. He clearly ONLY blogs to try to reassure himself that his very violent and demented opinion and beliefs are “normal and common” by using the opinion of clearly mentally ill commentors to feel that his “mental illness” is somehow lesser than theirs.
This is pretty clear to anyone who has ever cracked a Psych book. I am quite certain that he will be forced to see himself as the Criminal and Advocate of Rape that he is.
More importantly I am quite certain that a lovely Lady named “Karma” has her sights clearly set on him and his soul (if he has one, which I doubt).
Roissy is clearly prone to hyperbole. if you actually take him word for word literally, then you’re missing the satirical slant. i’ve been outed….and it sucks. if in face he outed L. Raine first, then yeah, he had it coming.
You are a psycho.
LR EDIT: Awwww, that’s cute. Thanks for the feedback
Tallagash–
He actually used my photos and photos of my 5 year old son and made up blatant slander and even tried to pass off a Porno Video as ME being the star (when I clearly was not). So yes, he def did.
Furthermore, although there may be a lot of “tongue in cheek” that is not how the law views things like that when the “tongue in cheekness” is meant to incite violence and hate crimes.
The First Amendment does NOT protect those types of speech because they are considered to be infringing upon the rights and safety of the people being “hated on” (so to speak).
I have found that a lot of people seem to really and truly NOT understand the application of the Laws regarding free speech (furthermore, when minors are involved all bets are off on free speech, copyright, and even parental rights).
@ LR – When you and Denise or someone related bring a case, will you have to prove that his words DID incite some sort of violence or will the words himself be sufficient?
He actually used my photos and photos of my 5 year old son and made up blatant slander and even tried to pass off a Porno Video as ME being the star (when I clearly was not). So yes, he def did.
Did he use your name? That’s the only way he would have ‘outed’ you. Slandering a penname is hardly the same.
LR EDIT: Honestly, I do not recall and that is not what my issue is. I have provided my name willingly and that never WAS my issue. He did not post “Here is Lady Raine (Wendy) a 29 year old CNC Machinist and mother.” He presented my and my son’s photo and presented slander calling me a porn star, hooker, drug addict, abusive mother, and whore. None of those things were ever presented by me on “myspace” about myself and therefore he used my photos and my sons photos and presented blatant slander and tried to pass it off as things that were true about me.
If I wanted to actually “even the score” I’d have used his photo and name and then presented a video of a Rapist or a Child Molester and tried to pass it off as Roissy. Or made up an entirely false persona and story about him accompanied by his photos. I feel that merely providing information that he had already publicly offered in “The Globe” to an interviewer voluntarily was a much less ‘sleazy’ way of outing him in an honest manner instead of trying to pass him off as whatever I wanted to make up and lie about.
@ LR – When you and Denise or someone related bring a case, will you have to prove that his words DID incite some sort of violence or will the words himself be sufficient?
Not necessarily, but that would definitely be a sketchy issue. If any Law Enforcement saw his blog as “hate speech” meant to incite or encourage violence or a Criminal Act against any race, gender, cultural, religious group and intended to endanger their safety, their freedom, or THEIR free speech then sometimes no actual Criminal Act is necessary.
However, if even ONE man were to commit a crime and was found to have read Roissy and been incited to violence against a “group” Roissy had provided hate speech on, then it would be MUCH easier to prosecute a more serious crime. Just an example would be if a women hires a man to murder her husband and has only “verbally asked” him to do it and hasn’t even paid them to do it, she’d still be considered an accessory to murder for inciting the hitman to violence against the said person.
Remember, that in a court of law MOTIVE is NOT necessary to prosecute a crime. Motive is very HELPFUL of course…..but not necessary because the Law recognizes that a person often does not have to have a ‘vendetta’ against a specific person in order to be guilty of willfully harming/killing them or inciting another person to harm/kill them.
Ms Romano, MA, EdM — Very classy of you to link to a purported slam on Roissy from Andy Sullivan. I’m not sure who would take relationshp advice from Mr Sullivan, who was caught trollng for ass on DC gay personal stes for bareback sex when he KNEW, but did not disclose, he was HIV+ . I’m not aware Roissy has tried to KILL anyone. Way to go!
Esquire, MA, JD, PhD
Well good luck with your Orwellian prosecution. I hope you catch a venereal disease.
LR EDIT: Your comment does not help make the PUA Community look any less guilty. Thus far not a single PUA has been able to refute any claim we have made about “sexual coercion” and “mind control” of the women they are using it on. Only that “it works” which as we know is not the issue at hand.
It working means NOTHING because Medical Fact has already long since proved that ANY and ALL human being no matter HOW intelligent they are can be easily brainwashed AGAINST THEIR WILL, which is why even simple things like “Hypnosis to help a person stop smoking” is considered controversial amongst the Medical Community.
I know a guy whose job description is “white collar crime investigator,” (he works for a law firm specializing in such) but basically he’s IT. I’ve always suspected “Roissy” was an IT guy. Also suspected he was past proper club age, but never figured he was *that* old.
I stayed away from his blog, but the guy was persistently, personally nasty to me in comments on other blogs. He seemed to have an endless supply of time for the Internet. I see I wasn’t the only female on the Internet he harassed like that. I think that was why he was popular — he made other angry guys on the Internet feel they had backup when they made comments normally associated with loserdom. His loser philosophies gained credibility with the myth that he was a big stud.
LR EDIT: You and I are not the only ones. Bloggers like Feminist X, Iron Wynch, and others have complained of the same harassment.
LR you did a service to all of humanity by outing this worthless douchebag.
LR EDIT: I do not know if you are male or female and it doesn’t matter because I thank you for coming forward and having the balls to denounce this behavior. It affects every person on earth who has a wife, a girlfriend, a daughter, a sister, or even a grandmother.
Uh-huh -
thank you for posting this. I will add this to the list of things to be looked at by authorities.
Denise
Tall-
roissy is NOT just hyperbole. He frequently makes it clear that he is NOT Kidding.
Denise
to be clear, we are NOT “bringing a case” – we are alerting the appropriate authorities so they can make their own determinations.
We are concerned citizens who care deeply about the safety of children and about the violent hate speech roissy uses against women AND his NOT KIDDING guidance he gives to a large and loyal following who have made it very clear in their comments that they agree with his violence against and hatred of women AND that they are also not kidding.
LR EDIT: Exactly. Denise and I are presenting the authorities with simple links to posts that we are discussing here to view and make a determination for themselves. We are NOT falsifying and presenting OUR VERSION of what he says. We offer direct quotes and links to the information and ask them ONLY to investigate it.
That is a right that every person on earth has. It is up to Law Enforcement to determine if there is something worthy of investigation there. What do you think will happen when even ONE WOMAN comes forward and shares how a man used the “hold her mouth shut and force her to swallow” on her because he read it at Roissy? Roissy would be charged with inciting that particular act of rape against that woman. That is the law for a reason.
“CLUBS and other venues that women go with *for many and probably most of them* the express purpose of hooking up with men -usually for a one night stand! The women themselves are deciding they want to do something risky. And they want to do it with a charming or exciting guy.”
I have a real problem with this statement because it is based on what “Game” TELLS YOU that women go out for. Women are known for enjoying “a night out dancing” FAR more than men typically do. It’s sort of known as something women do with other women (or a boyfriend/husband).
That would be like my saying “Well men who go to Sports Bars and congregate there are out to get laid”. No….that doesn’t make sense because it is something men tend to like to do and do often with their friends. The only reason men think women go to clubs to get laid is because the men INTENTIONALLY go to the clubs KNOWING that women like to dance and go out dancing with their girlfriends.
I know this because I was a (regular) dancer at various Nightclubs in Philly from ages 17-21. MOST women say often “Why do these guys have to try to horn in on our girls night out?” and “Why do these guys think we are here for THEM?”
If a woman was REALLY looking to “get laid” or “pick up a man” they would go to where MEN usually congregate like a Sports Bar or Men’s Club. MEN are the ones who want to believe women only like to dance because it is attractive to men.
I was a regular dancer for many years and I can honestly say that I never even ONCE allowed a guy to dance near me, with me, or “chat me up” because I was there to enjoy myself (and to work) and blow off some steam (dancing) not to “lure a man”. Women don’t NEED to “lure men”. We are hit on and pestered at bus stops, grocery stores, malls, bars, and even parent/school events a million times per day. Why would ANY woman feel the need to “congregate at a club” to draw male attention? They don’t.
I was always VERY rude to men who attempted to dance with me, touch me and pretend it was accidental (many men do this at clubs when they pretend to be “just trying to get past you” and grope you on the way by). I have actually punched men in the face (in my younger and more cunty years) for daring to do so. I tell men in no unsimple terms “I am not here to find a date, I am here to dance and enjoy myself and blow off steam. Please don’t waste your time chatting me up.”
And perhaps it’s unfair, but MOST women are taught that men at bars and clubs who are trying to chat you up are NOT men you should consider dating or having a romantic relationship with because they are there ONLY to get laid. I find this to be true and have never EVER allowed a man to “pick me up” at a bar or club. I do not even respond or make eye contact with men in a bar or nightclub for that reason. A man in a bar is a man looking for a woman who is inebriated, out of her sense, buzzed, or drunk. To me a man that wants to meet a woman under those conditions is NOT a man that I’d ever consider so much as going on a date with.
This is why I hate seeing men encouraged to “be more aggressive” in their pursuit of women. It is really unfair to women that they cannot go to ANY public places alone or with girlfriends without being inundated by men hitting on them and making assumptions like Clarence’s that they are “there for sex”. This is something that the Seduction Community and many Dating Services are TELLING MEN TO BELIEVE so that they do not feel like they are “imposing” on the women. They are.
I don’t think most men realize that women have to actively AVOID being hit on and propositioned every single day. There is no reason why any woman would have to even go OUT to be hit on. Men are becoming more and more aggressive in the dating market and it’s a really scary thing to women because they are being told by the Seduction Community that no matter WHAT the women SAYS, that she MEANS the opposite and WANTS to be approached, tricked, charmed, manipulated, cajoled, and coerced.
I can GUARANTEE that all these PUA’s that claim “I have told women that I practice game and they have no problem with it” that these guys are NOT telling them “Well just so you know, one of the main points of Game is to use mental/verbal COERCION to get a woman into bed much faster without having to respect her boundaries.”
These guys are inherently dishonest with the women they date and simply say “Game is something men use to learn how to tap into a woman’s needs” That is a lie. If they were honest they would tell her that Game is something that men use to avoid traditional courting methods and get to the sex faster. I don’t believe ANY woman would respond well to that.
I have read Savoy’s actual TECHNIQUES that he gives to men and one is specifically “Traditional Courtship allows her to keep her boundaries up and this is BAD.” He specifically states BAD. Bad for who? THE MAN WHO WANTS SEX, that’s who.
He specifically then states that it’s best to “isolate” her with a first date at the MANS HOME in a private setting where you can begin “touching her” and initiating sexual contact to get to what you really want faster and then he specifically NAMES the “what you really want” as SEX, a one night stand, and maybe a long term relationship AFTER that.
He is guilty of training men to NOT “court her” and allow her the feeling of safety in public and to ISOLATE her from that so that you can get her into bed faster, easier, and with less boundaries to cross.
That IS “sexual intimidation” and also “sexual coercion” which is the LEGAL AND MEDICAL DEFINITION OF DATE RAPE.
He is a criminal in my mind that should be prosecuted.
Every read Savoy’s legal disclaimer? He specifically CALLS HIMSELF “A Professional in Dating Science” and then his disclaimer states that “He is NOT a Professional and his advice is NOT intended to be of a PROFESSIONAL NATURE.”
He is blatantly and flagrantly misrepresenting himself and so is the rest of the PUA Community.
Yes Denise, The Authoities will be delighted to know that Roissy advocates canceling of dates, among his other diabolical endeavors.
LR EDIT: Yes, because that is what we are focused on and not his posts like “Hitting a Woman Turns her ON” or “Hit a woman and get her to NOT call the police” or “Cum in her mouth and hold it shut to FORCE her to swallow”.
I can tell you RIGHT NOW that if ANY MAN held my mouth shut and forced me to swallow, he would have his dick bitten off without a second thought. There wouldn’t be a Judge in the free world who would prosecute a woman for that, either. And rightfully so.
That IS by definition RAPE. Rape includes “forced acts of oral sex”.
Furthermore, roissy has made it clear that his own proudly professed violence against women IS real, so the violence has already occurred.
to PA above: if you want to partiicpate in this important discussion, I request that you do so in an intellectually honest manner.
You *know* that we are not wasting the authorities’ time with roissy’s advice to cancel dates. You know we are talking very specifically about the advice to “slap her”, that “hitting women turns them on”, “cum in her mouth and hold it shut so she has to swallow”, “14 year old girls are ‘ripe’ for men to have sex with”, and other advice that does incite sexual and physical violence against women.
LR,
I can’t help but think that part of your problem with “Game” is that lower-status males might meet women. Since only so many women can be with an “Alpha”, why shouldn’t women date regular guys when most women are “regular” themselves? If you and the other women commenting here have a proble with certain tactics, I can understand that. I think the problem is that many women feel entitled to “Real Alphas” when they are not.
esquire: the slam of roissy was not from sullivan – it was from Conor Friedsdorfer.
I hate andrew sullivan.
Conor is doing a service to all women and men re: game, just as we are.
those who refuse to see the lack of ethics in game and how it does teach men to use intentional psychological coercion against women for the sole purpose of getting laid are being dishonest with themselves.
If game ONLY taught men how to present themselves better physically, interpersonally, logisitically and also taught them things like manners, sexual knowledge, grooming, and hygiene, as well as relationship skills such as sound conflict resolution methods, we would have NO issues with it.
But the MAIN teachings and oft-stated goals are for men to get laid as often as possible by as many women as possible specifically using methods that are psychologically and physically agreesive and that are designed to disregard a woman’s resistance in every way – intentionally overlooking that it is anyone’s RIGHT to resist coercion to be sexual in any way.
That is why we view GAME as ASSAULT on so many levels.
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/01/08/the-end-of-marriage-2/
Thoughts from Denise/LR? It’s a gender neutral ARTICLE (can’t promise re: commentary). Food for thought anyway, perhaps a better (lighter) discussion than rape, game, and how evil roissy is.
Hahah, fucking losers. I can just imagine tubby Denise going over every post, telling her cat ‘ooh, oooh, this is a GOOD one’.
In America there is no law against hate speech. If I’m wrong, point a link to a case.
But hey if you guys want to waste your time this way, that’s your choice.
I do find it funny though that Denise has such a low opinion of women she thinks Game somehow magically teaches men to trick women who don’t want to have sex into having it.
to be clear, we are NOT “bringing a case” – we are alerting the appropriate authorities so they can make their own determinations.
We are concerned citizens who care deeply about the safety of children and about the violent hate speech roissy uses against women AND his NOT KIDDING guidance he gives to a large and loyal following who have made it very clear in their comments that they agree with his violence against and hatred of women AND that they are also not kidding.
LR EDIT: Exactly. Denise and I are presenting the authorities with simple links to posts that we are discussing here to view and make a determination for themselves.
LR EDIT: You clearly have NO knowledge of the Amendments, the Law, or even Medical Facts.
ALL people can be brainwashed AGAINST THEIR WILL and WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE. Men, women, children, geniuses, dullards, etc. You are attempting to insult women, when Medical Fact proves the same to be true of ALL HUMANS.
You are further trying to say that there are no laws against hate speech? LMAO you cannot truly be THAT uneducated. What do you think “the right to a peaceful assembly” means? It means that you have the right to protest, gather, speak, and be “against” or “for” an issue. You do NOT have any rights that go further than that and you do NOT have the right to infringe upon the safety, free speech, or general freedom of ANY OTHER PERSON or GROUP. That is what would then be considered a “inciting hate crimes and/or riots” and as we all know it IS something that is considered a crime, people are arrested, pepper sprayed, and hosed down by SWAT teams. They would NOT be allowed to do those things if you had a right to “incite a riot” or “incite violence” with a HATE SPEECH.
That IS and always HAS been the interpretation of the First Amendment. If you live in the United States you really should have an understanding of these rights.
The worst part is that you are now resorting to attacking Denise’s WEIGHT and APPEARANCE to refute her claims and discredit her? That only proves that you are lacking in any sort of argument to discredit her opinion, the facts, or her character and professional position.
I am reassured, as a citizen of this great republic blessed with many liberties, among them the First Amendment, that The Authorities (FBI presumably, since multiple states are involved) are building a case against a witty blogger who makes socio-biological observations. I’m sure they’re on it.
LR EDIT: If you honestly do not believe that Roissy advocates violence against women and/or sexual assault of minors would you then be willing to provide him and allow him to post a photo and commentary of your minor daughter? Niece? Sister? If you do NOT believe that his blog poses a threat to women and/or children then you would obviously have no problem doing that, right? Why shouldn’t his readers be able to view some porn, have graphic sexual discussion, and look at some pictures of your minor daughter at the same time, right? WRONG.
If not, then the point we are making is very clear. It is not just Roissy that is posing a very real threat to women. It’s PUA’s who do NOT take responsibility for what their words, techniques, and advice could be used for. That doesn’t fly legally in the business world for ANYTHING a person sells and that includes the sales of “Dating Techniques” and books relating to it.
Denise,
I patently disagree and have laidout in detail why on my blog in my Open Letter to you, specifically addressing your Aug 1 2009 post on your blog, which includes, by name, “PUA” (though I am NOT one), “Game” and the like. My post has been up at my blog for nearly a week now. I await your civil and detailed response. Thanks.
The Obsidian
I can tell you RIGHT NOW that if ANY MAN held my mouth shut and forced me to swallow, he would have his dick bitten off without a second thought. There wouldn’t be a Judge in the free world who would prosecute a woman for that, either. And rightfully so.
So there ARE times when its okay to use violence against the opposite sex? Are you inciting violence?
LR EDIT: Are you joking? That is by legal definition RAPE and VIOLENT ASSAULT. That’s like saying “So you are saying that you’d use deadly force if necessary if a gun was pointed to your head?” Yes of course I would. It’s called “SELF DEFENSE”. You cannot be honestly ASKING that question in a serious manner.
I do not believe that ANY man or woman ON EARTH would say that FORCING a woman to SWALLOW your CUM by holding her mouth shut is NOT sexual assault and rape. It is in every sense of the word.
Esquire – let’s look at your statement “i’m not aware roissy has tried to KILL anyone” -
First, you assume that Andrew Sullivan doesn’t tell his partners that he is HIV+. I’ve seen him announce it on TV on Bill Maher, so most people know this, and as much as I cannot stand him, I think he does tell his partners his HIV status.
Next, what exactly do you think is the result of roissy’s frequent unprotected sex with multiple women, especially when he is ejaculating into their mouths and holding their mouths shut so they have to swallow?
Have you EVER seen roissy post about the importance of getting tested for HIV in between partners and then waiting three months to get tested again while being celibate during that period of time so he doesn’t accidentally give HIV to someone in the interim when he cannot be sure of his own status??
NO! you haven’t. Because roissy has made it clear that he doesn’t care about the health or well-being of the women he uses and abuses. He has said so blatantly. And he has also made it clear that he is NOT kidding.
So, if you’re going to extrapolate what you did about Sullivan to the extent that you did, then you must also extrapolate what I just did about roissy based on his many writings that address all of this.
You’re a lawyer. Address this issue with logic and intellectual honesty or not at all.
LR EDIT: He also openly and clearly advocates “raw-dogging” all the women that you possibly can. That is not only RETARDED on his part (because it’s likely he has or has had many STD’s if that is truly how he behaves) but also a very dangerous piece of advice to give ANY man or woman who is sexually active and not in a long-term monogamous committed relationship (where STD testing has already been done and cleared).
I see that in addition to being really obnoxious, he claimed to have done some things that were scary and borderline illegal. I hope my initial assessment of him was correct — that his claims were just fantasies and BS rehashed from all the other “player” literature out there. He never seemed to have anything original or insightful to say. But, I could see where some guy 15-20 years younger than he is, or an extremely naive peer, could be duped.
I mean, I caught him commenting once at 9 p.m. on a Saturday night. When I pointed this out, he lashed back with something lame about what a turnon it was to blog with a hot chick looking over his shoulder and laughing as he eviscerated losers like myself. Because we all know hot chicks are really impressed by dudes arguing on the Internet.
And even if it is just BS on his part, it’s styled as “advice,” and a lot of vulnerable, desperate, angry men seemed to follow him. That’s scary.
Wow, it sure would be nice to venture into the blogosphere without having to worry about him and his minions hovering around.
LR EDIT: Rest assured that their obvious “rage” at Denise and I pointing out the obvious intended use of “Game” and the advice and techniques that men like Roissy present means that they are angry for one reason and one reason alone: We are presenting a truth about Seduction that neither the men practicing it or the men selling it want men and women to hear and know about. Furthermore it enrages them because they are forced to see/admit the truth about what they are intentionally doing to women. They do not want to believe they are guilty of sexual coercion and thus legal “sexual assault” and that is why our points are “enraging” them in the first place.
Seeking Alpha -
I’m so glad you brought up STDs – Thank you!
Most women I know (including myself) will not have sex with a man until we know we want to have sex with him, which takes TIME to determine.
Ofcourse, “speed seduction” and game intend to violate a woman’s need and right to take that time – which is part of what is wrong with it – but I digress.
Back to STDs, most women I know (including myself) will insist on getting tested together for all STDs at the same clinic at the same time and then viewing results and ensuring a clear undertanding of the sexual boundaries of the relationship before having sex.
That is the responsible way to handle oneself sexually as an adult in our current world full of deadly STDs.
But, of course, there is NOTHING about that in any Game book or enewsletter that I’ve ever read because these self-professed “dating scientists” (*please*) ARE NOT scientists at all. They all have to make the same disclaimer that Savoy does – IN FINE PRINT -
Yet Savoy continues to REFUSE to address these and other very serious issues when in reality he is merely only ALLOWED to do what he does “for entertainment puposes”.
But does he tell us that in his hostile posts defending the irrespsonbile and assaultive game? NO.
He defends it, he refuses to address the very serious ethical issues we’ve raised.
He claims in his posts to his clientele that he always wants to learn from women who he’s encountered what he did right and what he did wrong.
Yet he refuses to listen to us – and other men of principle – about what we see as sexual coercion being taught to men as though this is normal, when in fact, it’s psychologial coercion, which fits the medical defintion of rape.
LR EDIT: Don’t forget, Denise….that Savoy proclaims himself to be a “Science of Dating Professional” in his instruction, but then his legal disclaimer states that his “Savoy is NOT a Professional and his advice should NOT be taken as advice given on a professional level.”
I think that his obvious misrepresentation of himself is pretty much the norm amongst the Seduction Community. I have yet to see even ONE Seduction Guru who has a degree in ANYTHING that he is teaching or ANY studies of the Human Mind, the Human BRAIN, Psychology, or Medicine.
I do not believe that ANY man or woman ON EARTH would say that FORCING a woman to SWALLOW your CUM by holding her mouth shut is NOT sexual assault and rape. It is in every sense of the word.
Rape is forcible sex (of any sort). Simple
Swallowing implies the sex is over. It’s certainly (legal) assault. But most obviously NOT rape.
Moreover, MY point was that you’re clearly a violent or abusive person. You’ve made it clear you’re not afraid to use violence in times you feel are justified. Roissy said the same thing. You just have different ideas of justified.
So if I say I would permanently mutilate a woman who forced a kiss on me after blowing me, is that hyperbole or perfectly justified?
LR EDIT: Seeking Alpha, your personal “opinion” on what constitutes rape does NOT change the LEGAL AND MEDICAL definition which includes “sexual coercion” as RAPE. It also includes “forced oral sex or SEX ACTS” (which covers FORCING a woman to swallow) by default.
Please go check the Legal and Medical Definition of Rape because whether or not you agree…..that IS considered Rape and Sexual Assault.
Your comparison at the bottom does not even make sense. That is like saying “So if I have sex with a woman, she now has the right to do WHATEVER she pleases with my dick either NOW or in the FUTURE because I gave her permission to touch it and to play with it and did NOT specifically tell her what NOT to do with my penis.”
Would you agree on that? If not, then your question is just as pointless and completely off the mark.
And NO I did not say I “can use violence when I personally feel it’s justified”. I said that I “can use violence or deadly force in SELF DEFENSE because it is my LEGAL right (and ANY person’s legal right) to do so.” How can you have absolutely NO reading comprehension skills and NO knowledge of YOUR LEGAL RIGHTS and the LEGAL RIGHTS of others and still function in this world? I mean, seriously….how?
(And for the record, I have NEVER EVER hit, slapped, kicked, punched, or thrown things at a man. Not even in self-defense when my son’s father used to abuse me. I never would have stooped to his level and I that is what makes me superior in every way to him and any other person who uses violence to express their anger. So please stop accusing me of things that I have never said and also have never done. I said that I would DEFINITELY use DEADLY FORCE in SELF DEFENSE if a criminal act was comitted against me that warrants it. That is my right, that is YOUR right, that is ROISSY’s right and every other human being in the United States.)
@ Denise
Or just wear a condom. I’m calling bullshit though on this part:
Back to STDs, most women I know (including myself) will insist on getting tested together for all STDs at the same clinic at the same time and then viewing results and ensuring a clear undertanding of the sexual boundaries of the relationship before having sex.
because looking at your site, there’s no way a non-virgin is fucking you.
LR EDIT: Ahh, yes and now you have proved you don’t even understand STD’s and protection. Are you aware that a condom does NOTHING to protect against Herpes? Obviously not. Shocking.
Keep thinking that if you “wear a condom” you are golden. See where that gets you. Oh right, it will get you Herpes. Way to not even understand what we were all taught in the big “7th Grade Health Class Sex Talks”.
Dear PissedOffChnaman and others:
Please consider also writing to the DC Police to complain about roissy’s blog which is full of hate speech and encourages men to sexually and physically assault women:
mpd@dc.gov
thank you,
Denise
LR EDIT: I second this. I think most people are not aware of how NOT “benign” these techniques are and I also think that (like myself and Denise) most people do not realize that it’s not “few and far between” in terms of the amount of men practicing and teaching these “sexual coercion” and brainwashing techniques. There are lectures, classes, BOOT CAMPS, books, blogs, and even video instruction.
Your young daughters, sons, wives, girlfriends, mothers, and sisters are in very REAL danger of these men. The danger is so real because these men have ALSO been brainwashed by the Gurus of Game to believe that these women WANT to be sexually coerced, WANT to be brainwashed, and WANT to be manipulated and mentally abused/intimidated into sex. These men are so dangerous BECAUSE they are not aware themselves that they have been brainwashed using the exact same methods that the Gurus are teaching them to use on women.
I urge anyone who is concerned for the safety of women they love and want to protect to address and realize that this issue is far more serious than just being “unethical” and “amoral”.
Game is essentially “An alternative to slipping a roofie into her drink”.
Patr333x:
You can’t help but think we don’t like game b/c lower status men might meet women?
Have you read *anything* we’ve written here?
Read it again and then comment please.
Thanks
Denise
LR EDIT: I don’t even believe in the idea of “lower status” men. I think that a man who intentionally learns Game, though IS voluntarily making HIMSELF “lower status” however. A man getting laid by coercion or force IS the lowest you can go. A man not getting laid is not.
Mr M–
I will, indeed check out the article. I try not to visit the Spearhead and “look around” too much because then I fly into a righteous rage over the descriptions of the violence they wish upon women. If it is gender neutral then I will certainly comment in approval without hesitation.
Seeking Alpha -
You see, when someone has nothing substantive to say or argue, they resort to ridiculous pre-pubescent personal attacks.
I have no pets and I’m far from “tubby”. My photo is on the web along with my real name. Where is your photo with your real name? Then we discuss appearances.
And it’s not about having a low opinion of women are gamed.
Read about Steven Hassan’s (cult expert) books on undue influence and mind control. Get your facts straight and then we can talk.
Anyone can be brainwashed if the methods are used properly for that goal, and that is part of what game teaches men – the use of undue influence and coercion to get laid with zero regard for women’s rights and needs to NOT be coerced and unduly and unfairly influenced.
When psychologists and other brain research professionals conduct research using these methods, participants have to sign informed consent forms – there is NO informed consent in the use of game.
Read my blog on the following and then get back to us:
FBI model of hate groups
Steven Hassan definitions of cults
Medical defintion of rape
http://www.eqwithdenise.wordpress.com
Denise
LR EDIT: Exactly Denise. Seeking Alpha clearly does not understand what brainwashing is and that every human who HAS A BRAIN is subject to brainwashing even without any knowledge or recollection of having been brainwashed.
I have also provided a direct link in my blogroll to the FBI Database for people to also be clear on the definitions of Child Pornography and all the things you have mentioned above. I don’t understand why these men are refusing to acknowledge our points that are CLEARLY stated by the FBI, the Law, and by Medical fact. Do they think that if they just deny it, it doesn’t exist? Don’t they care if they are committing crimes because of Game and could be prosecuted because of the information they were given by the PUA Community? Why are these men angry that we are presenting them with the information they need to keep themselves safe from NOT being prosecuted? Why would that enrage them? I really don’t understand.
PA – yes and the man who killed a security guard at the Jewish Museum also had a website with his own thoughts and observations about how much he hated jews.
roissy is no different only his site is about how much he hates women – but he takes it a step further than the above-mentioned murdered did – he actually advises men to act on sexually and physically assaulting women – and his loyal and large following respond in eager agreement, adding their own thoughts about women and underage girls should be sexually and physicallly assaulted.
Obsidian,
As I’ve let you know, I had several deadlines this week.
One has been met on Wednesday but now I have book galleys that are due.
I’ve been posting in between receiving chapters from my editor – as I can – to keep up with the discussion.
However, before I reply to you, I first owe Clarence a response to his questions about NVC and I then owe responses to Hugh and Daran on my blog.
I will respond to your letter when the above are complete.
Denise
Seeking Alpha,
Let’s try this again.
Ejaculating in a woman’s mouth and holding her mouth closed so she is forced to swallow, is sexual and physical assault.
Therefore, if she does bit his dick off, it’s self-defense.
Again, read what we’ve already written and get up to speed before commenting further.
Denise
Seeking Alpha,
Let’s try this again.
Ejaculating in a woman’s mouth and holding her mouth closed so she is forced to swallow, is sexual and physical assault.
Therefore, if she does bite his dick off, it’s self-defense.
Again, read what we’ve already written and get up to speed before commenting further.
Denise
Seeking Alpha,
I find it very interesting that you’ve determined that Lady Raine is a violent person based on her assertion that women have a right to defend themselves when sexually and physically assaulted, yet you REFUSE to consider that roissy is violent.
Let’s do an honest comparison of all the violence that roissy has admitted to, encouraged others to engage in, and espoused in general on his blog to any violence that Lady Raine has mentioned on her blog.
ANY violence that LR has put forth as justifiable is in self-defense situations ONLY.
So, PLEASE, engage those parts of your brain that allow you to think logically when you participate in this discussion.
Where is your photo with your real name? Then we discuss appearances.
We live in a world, thanks to feminism and PC dogma, where I’m more likely to get in trouble for these comments than you are for going after a WRITER, so I think I’ll keep my name and photo to myself.
I assure you though that I have nothing to HIDE in terms of appearance. No, I’ve always been a good looking kid, but was bad with girls because I was shy from being an only child and too analytical from being very intelligent.
Game is generally for these types of guys – the too analytical type – to turn their over-analytical nature from a handicap to an aid.
What is game used for?
Well some guys try to sleep with a girl the same night, although most are unsuccessful, as Roissy, Roosh, and VK frequently point and, and why they usually discuss first and second dates. And if all they want from life is sex, than more power to them. This is America after all. We’re supposed to respect diversity.
Other guys want game to find a girlfriend. This includes Roissy, who frequently discusses the importance of love and the importance of maintain relationships. However, these guys know that your advice of ‘be nice to her’ and ‘listen to her’ will most likely bore her and lead to a stagnant relationship with a premature ending.
And finally some guys, like me, already have a girl they love very much but wanted to learn how to increase the attraction, passion, and respect in their relationship.
That’s my rational view of game and how I feel about the subject. I don’t think you’re interested in understanding it. I think you’re a woman whose job is to look for abuse anywhere and everywhere and who doesn’t care whether Roissy has ever actually incited violence because you don’t like what he says.
Now I’ll go back to mocking and making fun of you and being childish because I guarantee the above paragraphs were futile and you have no interest in discussing game rationally with me or anyone else. If I can’t have a rational discussion in between trades at work, I’ll settle for mocking the man-jaw tubby girl.
Seeking Alpha (*again*) -
RE: your rhetorical question about should you permanently mutilate a woman who forces a kiss on you after blowing you….
READ WHAT WE ARE SAYING: Healthy adults get to KNOW each other before they do things like that.
They communicate about what their sexual boundaries, likes and dislikes are so that they don’t do things with or to the other person that are in violation of any boundaries. It’s about mutual respect.
But, you wouldn’t know that, b/c game doesn’t teach that – or you never learned that anywhere else.
Just like you apparently haven’t learned how to think logically or engage in a discussion while putting forth relevant and substantive points and questions.
[...] I mean, I caught him commenting once at 9 p.m. on a Saturday night. When I pointed this out, he lashed back with something lame about what a turnon it was to blog with a hot chick looking over his shoulder and laughing as he eviscerated losers like myself. Because we all know hot chicks are really impressed by dudes arguing on the Internet. [...]
Wow, what a ‘playa’ — blogging at 9PM on a **SATURDAY EVENING**?!?
I always suspected that Roissy was never ‘the real deal’, and was projecting a holly-wierd/porn *fantasy* of such a “life”…how a “real’ ‘man” is “supposed” to “behave”.
This is Emotional Disturbance 101.
Roissy, and anyone who behaves this way, has deep-seated issues that need to be addressed and treated, especially his (and probably other PUA’s) likely sex addiction.
Yeah, your a real ‘role-model’ there, champ.
Sorry there fellas, but there is WAY MORE to aspire to in life than being a 40+ year old ‘Lounge Lizard’.
In truth, Seeking Alpha you do NOT seem to understand or have even a layman’s passing knowledge of the Law.
Self Defense is defined by “Imminent Danger”. A person does not even actually HAVE to be in “imminent danger” to be allowed to use self defense and subsequently deadly force as long as they truly BELIEVED that their life was in “imminent danger” (and subsequently can prove to some degree that there was a GOOD REASON to believe that their life was in danger). That is the only thing needed to prove self defense.
You are welcome to check that fact and confirm it for yourself. That IS and always has been the Legal Parameters of Self-Defense.
@ Denise’s most recent quoted below
You missed the point. You felt that mutilation of genitalia was an acceptable self-defense against the sexual assault of forced swallowing of cum, if the assaulter was a man. I asked if a woman was the assaulter, would it still be acceptable self-defense?
I believe the above could not be laid out more logically. Last time, you sidestepped the question by saying the woman would never do that because healthy adults talk about it first.
RE: your rhetorical question about should you permanently mutilate a woman who forces a kiss on you after blowing you….
READ WHAT WE ARE SAYING: Healthy adults get to KNOW each other before they do things like that.
They communicate about what their sexual boundaries, likes and dislikes are so that they don’t do things with or to the other person that are in violation of any boundaries. It’s about mutual respect.
But, you wouldn’t know that, b/c game doesn’t teach that – or you never learned that anywhere else.
Just like you apparently haven’t learned how to think logically or engage in a discussion while putting forth relevant and substantive points and questions.
Seeking Alpha *yet again* -
Yes, if there are men who just want to get laid, they are free to want and pursue that.
And if there are women who *don’t* want that, they are free to resist it – oh but wait – their efforts at resisting what they have a right to resist are being intentionally circumvented by those who use the egregiously unethical parts of game such as LMR, misuse of NLP, covert hypnosis and other methods.
Again you clearly have not read a word we’ve said here – otherwise you would know that we ARE interested in why an amount of men are attracted to game, what they find useful about it, what about it is not unethical, and how we can discuss these issues and find some common ground.
Have you read any of our comments in discussion with Huge, Daran, or others?
You clearly haven’t.
You are making incorrect assumptions about our positions, intentions and goals.
But I am not surprised from comments of yours I’ve read on other blogs.
LR and I are both very reasonable people in every sense of the word. We are also busy professionals, and we would not be investing our time in this effort if it were not very important to us as people of prinicple.
Your refusal to acknowledge that there are parts of roissy’s blog that are seriously problematic from both legal and psychological perspectives indicates a great deal about you.
Your hope and wish that LR and I are actually not reasonable people also indicates a great deal about you.
We have made clear repeatedly that we encourage men who are shy or nervous with women to seek out whatever ethical help they can get and we also have tremendous compassion for those men and want to see them helped and happy.
However, you fail to see that game does much more than that; it intentionally teaches men methods that sexually coerce women, and it does so as though there is nothing wrong with this, when in fact there is a great deal wrong with it.
You do realize that your baseless and childish personal attacks prevent you from having any credibility in this important discussion, right?
We again invite you to participate in this discussion using intellectual honesty, identical standards when comparing blogs or language, logic, and to make points or raise questions of relevant substance.
Thanks,
Denise
@ LR
A person does not even actually HAVE to be in “imminent danger” to be allowed to use self defense and subsequently deadly force as long as they truly BELIEVED that their life was in “imminent danger”
Yea, and holding someone’s mouth closed makes them think their LIFE is in DANGER. Obviously I think its the stupidest thing in the world and I highly Roissy has ever tried it. It’s part of his obvious hyperbole.
But I just wanted to talk around the idea that women think they have some god given right to unlimited violence when they feel threatened, but that any violence of a man towards a woman (apparently even ‘emotional’ violence) is always unjustified.
S.Alpha,
I find you quite tedious.
First, you did not ask your question that way previously. (remember, we can’t hear the thoughts in your head; we can only see what you type).
Secondly, you are asking those of us in this discussion to consider that a woman kissing you after having blown you is somehow assaultive.
I fail to see how that in any way is asaultive, whereas forcing a woman to swallow your cum, IS inarguably assaultive.
Denise
@ Denise
by those who use the egregiously unethical parts of game such as LMR, misuse of NLP, covert hypnosis and other methods.
None of which Roissy advocates. So what else do you have? Holding her mouth closed? An OBVIOUS joke. No one would do that. Hitting a woman will turn her on? Read the last paragraph:
Personally, I don’t advocate hitting women, despite knowing full well that it works. In this day and age, it is a risky venture, and there are better methods of training your girlfriend to be the best woman she can be to you. The right frame of mind and tight game will be just as effective, if not moreso in the long run, as a firm slap for turning your girlfriend into an Army of One Loyal Pussy.
So that’s why I don’t think you actually care, because even knowing full well you don’t have a leg to stand on, or that he’s like never incited any sort of violence, you do your best to see his life hurt.
For shame.
@ Denise
Secondly, you are asking those of us in this discussion to consider that a woman kissing you after having blown you is somehow assaultive.
What if she forced herself on you? Climbed on top of you and pressed her sticky lips to yours?
Seeking Alpha,
I’m beginning to think you are a 14 year old boy who was absent on the day they showed the film on sex education.
Let’s review: Choosing to allow someone to come in one’s mouth is a serious decision, as is choosing whether to swallow it.
You seem to not understand this, so I will explain.
You see, ejaculating in someone’s mouth exposes them to every STD you may have. Therefore, forcing either ejaculating into someone’s mouth or forcing them swallow it (yet a higher risk activity) are both forms of very serious sexual and physical assault.
If you indeed are under 18, please log off immediately and do not visit this blog ever again until you are of age, as LR and I realize this is adult subject matter and we do not want minors on this blog.
If you are 18 or over, please let us know if you have any further questions about the basics of sex, STDs, and your responsiilbity to have certain knowledge about these things as a sexually active human.
Thanks
Denise
Alpha, alpha, alpha…..
“But I just wanted to talk around the idea that women think they have some god given right to unlimited violence when they feel threatened, but that any violence of a man towards a woman (apparently even ‘emotional’ violence) is always unjustified.”
Now, I’m beginning to think you perhaps have difficulty with reading comprehension as well as an ability to think logically.
I encourage you to read my blog where I post “Human Rights for Men and Women in Intimate Relationships” as well as what LR and I have already stated here repeatedly.
If you do that, you will see that we in fact do not believe your quote above.
Imagine for just a moment that your thought above is incorrect (as it is).
You are obviously very angry about something and you’ve chosen to use that anger to fuel irrational and untrue beliefs about *all* women.
I’m sorry for whatever happened to you that has made you feel so victimized by women. But, surely do not actually believe that *all* women exist in the way you’ve portrayed us above.
If you do, I encourage you to consider that you are incorrect (as you are) and to consider the faulty logic of your thoughs and statements.
I also encourage you to seek help from a professional mental health counselor to address your anger and feelings of having been victimized.
Once you deal with those feelings of rage and hurt, you will be able to think more clearly. I say this with all sincerity and concern for you.
Denise
@ Denise
So its not assault because its a violent, sexual act, its assault because it increases the exposure to STDs?
In my last two posts, there are two basic issues you keep skipping over; that you refuse to address.
1) What has Roissy seriously advocated doing that you find objectionable? (I posted several of your previous examples that are either not Roissy related, an obvious joke, or one he specifically says NOT to use).
2) Is the threshold for sexual or physical assault the same for a man and a woman? Are the appropriate responses to the assault the same for a man and a woman? If they’re not the same, why aren’t they?
Denise-
My comment was intended for LR, and yours was a non-answer. Since you want to answer also, I will ask both of you: Do you have a problem with some of the tactics used in game or that certain men use it at all? If so, what would be the problem with those men?
You can discuss male weakness here all you want, but I can’t help but think that at least part of the problem is that women are uncomfortable with the fact that game exposes a certain shallowness in women. I don’t see why both sides of the coin can’t be discussed.
LR EDIT: I have stated myself that I do not think that the men who seek the advice of the PUA Community are intentionally looking to abuse women and that I also do not think MOST of them understand that the techniques they are being taught are intended to brainwash and trick the women. I do not think that the men using Game are willfully LOOKING for a way to abuse women. I think they are looking for advice on dating and are putting too much trust and too much belief in what they are being TOLD to believe and TOLD is what women want. They are NOT being warned that these techniques DO walk a fine line on the Law and that they COULD be considered and CHARGE WITH Rape and Sexual Assault for some of these things.
I think the men being sold seduction techniques are being essentially bamboozled and misled by the people who are selling/teaching it to them. They are not given warnings. They are not given CLEAR boundaries. They are not given the Legal and Medical definition of what could constitute “coercion and rape” and THAT is what concerns ME.
I hope that answers your question and is what you were trying to ask. If not, please feel free to ask again and I’ll clarify my answer if necessary as many times it takes to make my point and my stance on the issue clear.
I do NOT consider this a matter of “male weakness” nor “female weakness” because the men selling Game to these men are using many of the same mind control and “suggestion” techniques to sell them the information and NOT warn them of the dangers and the real meaning behind the “benign phrases” they use to cover up what is at the core.
alpha -
you are clearly missing the point that a woman “pressing her sticky lips to yours” in no way puts you at risk for any STD infection, whereas ejaculating in her mouth and forcing her to swallow puts her at great risk for STD infection.
Please visit cdc.gov and learn about how STDs are communicated as well as the fact that women are much more likely to be infected by men than men are likely to be infected by women (due to anatomical differences) – *before* you comment any further on this topic.
@ Denise
So forcing a woman to swallow cum is only assault because of the risk of infection? So if the man and woman had been tested previously together, and then he did it, it wouldn’t be assault?
Of course it would have been. Its assault because its forceful behavior, not because of the STD risk.
LR EDIT: No, it is assault because the statement itself uses the phrase “force”. Any use of “force” is assault. You can argue all day, but that doesn’t change the fact that you would be arrested for Rape and Sexual Assault if you took Roissy’s advice and did that. I don’t understand why you are angry that we are giving you the tools to NOT find yourself in that situation.
It is assault for both reasons.
But please do not obfuscate and try to equate a “sticky kiss” with forcing somene to swallow cum.
@ Denise
So why don’t you pick your own example. What sexual act can a woman do to a man that is sexual assault, in the context of two otherwise consenting adults having sex?
How about a finger up the butt? Some guys like that, but most don’t. Let’s say a girl wanted to try that without asking. If forcing cum swallowing is sexual assault and rape, clearly a finger up the butt would be.
In THAT case, can I permanently mutilate the girl I’m with, because I’m being sexually assaulted?
LR EDIT: No, but FORCING a finger in his ass and refusing to remove it whether he likes it or not WOULD be considered sexual assault (as would verbally, mentally, or physically intimidating him into “allowing” her to do it). The Law actually DOES clearly specify “objects inserted into the anus of either a male or female”.
And yes, if she did it in the way I presented above, you would be well within your right to protect and defend yourself and your body from that assault if you truly believed you were in “imminent danger” as clearly stated by Federal Law. Next question? (I don’t understand why you continue to act as if WE wrote the Law. We did not. We are just presenting the facts about the Law to you.)
You are being intentionally obtuse. If a man were to say “Hey will you swallow my cum?” or simply came in her mouth and SHE decided whether or not to swallow it that is NOT sexual assault.
If she were to TRY to put a finger in your ass and you allowed it without being coerced, threatened, or intimidated (forced) to accept that behavior that would NOT be sexual assault. What do you find so confusing about this? I truly do not understand what is wrong with your critical thinking skills.
Denise, you’re right. Roissy is a menace to all women. But why stop with him? I suggest you also alert The Authorities to writers and publishers of Harlequin bodice-rippers. And that blasphemous “Story of O” authoress.
Gotta say, you make Andrea Dworkin sound like Camille Paglia. That’s an achievement.
LR EDIT: The story of “O” is not written as a Seduction Manual including “techniques, maxims, rules, and advice”.
Has anyone ever told you that “Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit?” In your case, I think that to be true.
So you agree with me that Harlequin bodice-ripper authors and publishers must be brought before the Peoples’ Tribunal at once?
LR EDIT: Again, Harlequin novels are called “fictional entertainment” for a reason. They are not classified as Techniques, Instruction Manuals, Rules, Maxims, Advice, or anything close to what the Seduction Community is presenting and I don’t understand how you can type something that stupid and not feel embarrassed.
Fine, go get convicted of Rape because you wanted to bury your head in the sand, don’t say we did not warn you!
Denise,
Yes, I recall your explanation, but I find it a bit odd that you can post rather long and more recent posts specifically addressing PUAs and Game in the days since I have posted my Open Letter to you, to say nothing of seeing rather lengthy responses to gentlemen such as Daran and Hugh Ristik, both of whose work I am familiar. I patiently await your civil and detailed response to my Open Letter, which I think, carefully addresses all of the points you make per your Aug 1 2009 post on your blog, EQ With Denise, found on WordPress.com. To date, the only posts you have made on my blog, were drawn out definitions of rape, something I find to be completely off topic.
Of course, you can and will do as you wish; but if you can find the time to write such lengthy posts and responses on your blog and elsewhere, including my own blog, though completely off topic, I an left wondering why you cannot reply to the points I made in said Open Letter to you, addressing specifically what I have said. We both agree that a civil and respectful discourse, even debate, is desirable. In that vein then, I await your response.
The Obsidian
LR EDIT: She is providing you with those definitions because you should know that you could be charged with Rape and/or Sexual Assault for using “sexual coercion”. Why are you guys all so angry that we do NOT want to see men being charged with crimes they were not aware they were committing because they were NOT presented with the very real possibilities by the Seduction Community?
Why do you want to remain blind to what could be a very real danger to you? Do you mistakenly think that you CANNOT be charged with a crime just because you didn’t “mean” to do it?
That is why the Law allows “intent” and things like “voluntary” and “involuntary” to be used as determinations of a crime. Saying “Well I didn’t know it was a crime” will not absolve you of Criminal Charges in a Court of Law and I think that Denise and I are very confused as to why you find it offensive that we are providing you with the tools to know what you could be doing without knowing it. Once you are in that “sex offender” database it cannot be reversed. Is it REALLY worth that to you just to get laid a little faster? I really don’t understand what you think your ignorance will buy you.
THERE. Are all the sensitive JEW-ISH folks out there satisfied? I suppose now the Christians will be enraged that I dared to use Jesus’s name?
Now can we stick to the issues at hand, please?
Lady Raine,
What Ms. Romano posted on my blog thus far is hardly the domain of Game, or rather, her understanding or take on it, but very much within the realm of possibility of any Man, Game-assisted or not. Indeed, the record shows, that Women can and have cried “rape”, whether true or not – something that I take very seriously because, as a Black Man, it wasn’t that long ago where someone like me COULD BE LYNCHED AND KILLED on the mere suspicion of rape of a White Woman. There are many documented instances of this in fairly recent American history, from the early 20th century, running right up into the 60s and beyond.
So again, as I’ve asked above, I’ll now kindly repeat: please produce evidence that known and highly respected PUAs and Game teachers, such as Mystery or Style, has been proven to have raped or otherwise sexually assaulted any Woman? Please provide evidence? I need to see some – not Witch hunts? Thank You.
And, still patiently waiting for Ms. Romano’s civil and detailed response to my Open Letter at my blog…
The Obsidian
LR EDIT: Obsidian THAT is exactly what we are saying. Do you WANT to be wrongfully accused of rape? You have admitted yourself that “Game walks a fine line”. We are trying to present the possibilities of what “sexual coercion” could do to a man who did not REALIZE that even “mental” sexual coercion is considered rape by the Law. We are not saying that “every man who learns game wants to rape women”. We are saying that “any man who learns Game should know that he COULD be crossing the line and be convicted of rape without intent.” Intent is not necessary to prosecute a crime.
Seduction will teach men how to “get past her boundaries to get to the sex faster”. Those techniques ARE “pushing” her verbally, physically, and mentally into giving you sex. Furthermore it teaches you to try to “isolate” her which means that as a man you are at a much greater risk of being ACCUSED of rape whether you intended to rape her or not.
This is what we are trying to say. You do not have to “intentionally intimidate” a woman with a weapon or fists in order to “threaten, coerce, or scare her” enough that she will have sex with you and thus be prosecuted as a rapist.
If the Seduction Community would lay out CLEAR AND UNDENIABLE boundaries as well as clear and concise LEGAL and MEDICAL definitions of what could be considered rape or sexual abuse/assault, then we would not be dealing with such a serious issue. You as men are being given information about how to “get sex easier” but NOT the information as to what line that may cross, what is considered a crime, and what very real dangers men who practice Game are facing.
It would be similar to if a Female Seduction book instructed women to “dress as provocatively as she can and invite men to her house for the first date or meet him in a dark alley” and then did NOT clearly outline that this could lead to her being raped, sexually assaulted, murdered, mugged, etc. It would be JUST as grossly irresponsible to the women who are reading and practicing those techniques.
Moreover,
Please name me the specific, NON-NLP methods and techniques germain to the Game community, that somehow constitutes “sexual assault”? Oh, and we’ll leave out the oft-mentioned “Neg”, too. Those are low-hanging fruit items. I need to see other hard evidence to your and Ms. Romano’s argument. Thank you.
The Obsidian
Just some quick catch-up:
I have to second what LR said here: “Neither Misogynists and MRA’s nor Revenge/Militant Feminist want EQUAL treatment. They want to be IN CONTROL. They want to be superior. And they want to do those things by any means necessary and ALSO by victimizing other men or women.”
This is a central concept to our positon that game is egregiously unethical.
Also, I agree completely with what LR says that many women go to clubs or out anywhere to enjoy themselves and for any of you to assume that women are out looking for a man to game her, seduce her, or find ways to sleep with her is just DELUSIONAL.
Do those women want you to talk to them and perhaps ask them out? Some of them do and some of them don’t. Do any of them want to be gamed? NO.
RE: the “anti-slut defense” – Has it occurred to any of you that IF you would stop calling women sluts for having or acting upon the very same biologically-given (or god-given – if you believe that) sexual urges and desires that you have, that a big portion of the problems you’ve complained about would disappear?
The majority of the men on the MRA sites we’ve seen talk nearly constantly about how they believe women should be put in their places, should not be able to vote, should be completely subservient to men in all ways, and should be chaste and faithful while men are allowed to whore it up as much and as often as they want, regardless of commitment or marriage.
I would like to hear some men here (other than Hugh, Daran, and some others we have already gratefully heard from- though they have made clear they are NOT PUAs) – on this issue of MRAs and PUAs doing all they can to create and maintain HAVING POWER OVER women or one woman.
And as for Dave in Hawaii – I have to agree with most of LR’s assessmet of the situation – and I will also add this:
We don’t know what his wife is life or even if his descriptions of her and their relationship are reliable and truthful. For all we know he was paid to write a fictional “article”.
But, we DO know this: if there is any kind of imbalance in a relationship around power and control that has not been fully explored for consequences and freely and mutually agreed upon – there WILL be conflict and resentment as a result.
The excellent book, “Getting Love Right” by Terence T. Gorski provides EXCELLENT guidance for men and women on how to keep a relationship healthy and how to make sure you are personally healthy enough to even be in a relationship – and if you’re not – how to get healthy enough.
I feel like i’m forgetting something to comment on and I probably am.
I’ll finish with this: for those of you who defend roissy’s site and say it isn’t and he isn’t violent or abusive — yet say that LR is violent or abusive or that our concerned citizenship rights to complain to authorities about his site *is* violent and abusive, do consider the logical contradictions in your statements.
I will also add that it is really shocking how many MRAs and PUAs have clearly demonstrated in their comments to us their complete lack of knowledge of STDs and how they are communicated.
Perhaps Savoy and the rest of the PUA industry need to focus more teaching on STDs, female anatomy, legal issues as those relate to STDs, legal definitions of rape, and accurate statistics about rape and STDS – -
but Oh *right* – Savoy and his colleagues aren’t “dating science” professionals – they are ENTERTAINERS not to be taken seriously according to their fine print legal disclaimers.
roissy is a menace to women, men, and children – not just to women.
fictio
PA -
i’m growing tired of your lack of logic as well, so I will employ the Socratic method with you:
Answer these questions:
1. What is significatly different about boddice-ripper fiction and roissy’s site?
2. When answering this question, please review the following:
A. Medical and legal definition of rape
B. Defintions of Hate speech and hate groups from the FBI
C. Definitions of Cults from Steve Hassan
D. Roissy’s frequent statements that he is NOT kidding.
Now you have the answers to your questions.
Obisidian,
I’m posting responses that don’t take long to compose at all b/c i’m posting them in between reviewing my book galleys and in between finalizing a 38 page document I had due on Weds that required enormous amounts of back and forth between me and someone else.
The very simple questions and comments to which I’ve replied in the many but short varied breaks I’ve had while waiting to hear back from my editor and my colleague on the other project were used for these comments.
None of those breaks were either long enough or without other interruptions that needed to take priority for me to set aside a block of time to properly respond to your letter.
I want to respond when I know I will not be interrupted and when I know I will be able to respond in one sitting.
Denise
Obisdian,
I will try to elaborate on this when I reply to your letter, but briefly for NOW, this entire discussion has made it clear that many PUAs and MRAs don’t even have a clear or accurate understanding of what constitutes rape.
I know that the group Men Stopping Rape used to have a 10-poster educational series for young men in college (or elsewhere) explaining how a man can easily rape a woman without intending to or knowing that he did.
Thisi IS possible and more commonplace than you would think *precisely* because of the INACCURATE info game and MRAs espouse and reinforce to each other such as:
try slapping her; she’ll like it
no means yes
LMR
if she’s out at a club she’s looking for sex
if she’s dressed in a sexy way, she’s looking for sex
etc etc etc
In short, there are alot of things that are NOT AT ALL consents to sex that PUAs and MRAs wrongly believe, state, teach, and reinforce as consents to sex.
THIS Is how rape OFTEN happens when men may not intend it or even know it.
So, really, it’s in men’s best interests to be honest with themselves about the legal and medical definitions of rape and to stop fooling themselves that psychological coercion is NOT as LR so aptly said, just another form of a roofie in her drink.
Because that is exactly what Game is, and very intentionally so.
MEN WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE REFUSING TO SEE THE VERY REAL DANGERS THAT YOU CLEARLY HAVE NOT BEEN EDUCATED ON!!!!!
I am shocked and upset that it seems that many grown men do NOT know that “wearing a condom” does NOT protect you against all STD’s. That regular testing for STD’s is STILL necessary even if you have always worn a condom each and every time you have engaged in sex and oral sex. I hope that these men remember that they can get HIV/AIDS by giving a woman oral sex or receiving oral sex from a woman who is infected by it. Even oral sex requires a condom if you are not in a committed monogamous relationship where regular testing is done.
It also seems that men are not aware that “not knowing the Laws on rape and sexual abuse/assault” WILL NOT be a credible excuse in a Court of Law for committing a crime. Ignorance of the Laws has never been and never will be a Legal excuse for committing a crime. It may give you a lesser sentence, but these men are also forgetting that even a “lesser conviction” is STILL GOING TO LIST YOU AS A SEX OFFENDER IN THE DATABASE FOR LIFE RIGHT ALONG SIDE OF VIOLENT RAPISTS AND CHILD MOLESTERS. Once you are added to that database you are NEVER taken out of it. You can NEVER erase that conviction and you can NEVER live a normal, happy life again.
Denise and I find it shocking that you gentlemen practicing Game seem to not have any concerns about the women you are Gaming or even your own lives. It does NOT matter if you are charged with just “attempted sexual assault” you are STILL GOING TO BE PUT IN THAT DATABASE AND HAVE YOUR ADDRESS, NAME, PHOTO, AND DESCRIPTION OF YOUR CHARGES IN THAT DATABASE UNTIL THE DAY YOU DIE. That crime NEVER goes away. Sometimes the sex offenders are even subject to housing restrictions and cannot even live where they choose to. Their families are often tortured and attacked for their crimes. Their children are ostracized and assaulted. Their families shamed. Their jobs lost.
How can you not care that you could end up there by making just ONE MINOR MISTAKE IN JUDGEMENT????
How can you not care that men teaching and SELLING these techniques to you don’t care if your life and family is destroyed because of their advice and lack of information/boundaries?
Why aren’t you enraged that your daughters and wives could be sexually coerced/abused by these men learning Seduction Techniques?
Why aren’t you asking these men why they are charging you thousands of dollars to possibly have your lives destroyed because of THEIR negligence? Would you not be devastated and enraged if you trusted a Doctor to help a loved on and that trusted Doctor killed them due to negligence and lack of proper credentials and then were so brazen as to shrug and say “Oh well, that’s not our problem….you should have done your research before trusting that I am actually a Doctor?”
No, of course not.
It is the same thing and we do NOT understand why you are not enraged about his….if not for the women you are Gaming then for yourselves?
Please take this down. This is shameful.
Who are you to judge anyone’s relationship and the basis of whether or not it is healthy or happy, when you yourself have gone into explicit detail regarding your own relationship failures?
What makes you the expert?
Your choice in an abusive alcoholic loser as a sperm donor for your illegitimate son?
Your repeated declarations of how you are not suited for a real relationship, that you are perfectly happy being independent, and don’t NEED a man?
Yeah, everyone should listen to such an obvious success story as yours!
We need MORE unmarried women picking irresponsible alcoholics to get impregnated by them to raise an entire generation of boys without their fathers, all the while rationalizing and justifying how none of these bad decisions are there own fault…it’s all the fault of the loser men you all chose to spread your legs for!
We don’t know what his wife is life or even if his descriptions of her and their relationship are reliable and truthful. For all we know he was paid to write a fictional “article”.
But, we DO know this: if there is any kind of imbalance in a relationship around power and control that has not been fully explored for consequences and freely and mutually agreed upon – there WILL be conflict and resentment as a result.
Ah yes Mz. Romano.
This is precisely my story. What you fail to realize is that our society, our media and our educational institutions all preach a message to us men that women are our superiors. That women are morally better than us. That “testosterone” is a “bad” thing.
And we men internalize us. You, and everything you represent in your over-educated vocation, are all part of a system that has RAPED us men out of any positive expressions of masculinity and leadership. People like you have worked tirelessly to promote the lie that “dominance” is the same as “abuse.”
So guys like myself, we internalize this cultural message. We give way to the women in our lives. We try to appease them and make them happy. Than we are clueless as to why they get so upset with us, and give us contempt when we merely try to comply with what our culture and people like you tell us we should act like.
We don’t understand why “she just can’t be happy?” We’re being thoughtful, and communicative…and it just doesn’t work?
Than we come across this thing called “GAME.”
And we read up about the female nature of attraction and it’s basis for hypergamy.
And the lightbulb goes off, and we realize “being a doormat, bowing to her authority, and asking her what she wants to make her happy” are all things that lead to her losing her attraction for us because we no longer fulfill her hypergamous attraction triggers.
So we stop supplicating. We stop kissing her ass. We stop behaving as if she were our authority figure.
Than we notice most of the passive-aggressive contempt and anger in our relationships dissappear once we stop submitting to HER authority.
THIS is what you are calling “manipulative” and “abusive.”
Bullshit.
Denise, one simple question here: do you understand what the concept of hypergamy means, and how it impacts a relationship between a man and a woman?
“This is precisely my story. What you fail to realize is that our society, our media and our educational institutions all preach a message to us men that women are our superiors. That women are morally better than us. That “testosterone” is a “bad” thing.”
Dave, I do not believe those things and I know for a fact that Denise does not either. Women are NOT superior to men. Women are NOT morally superior, either. No one ever said “testosterone” is bad. Neither are your sexual urges.
However, using sexual coercion and “speed seduction” is sexual abuse and is listed under the very definition of “date rape” by Law whether you, me, Denise, or anyone on earth like it or not. Feigning ignorance of these laws does NOT protect you from prosecution. THAT is our main message. (And I’m sure that does not apply to you since you are obviously a married man, but that does not change that Game is in every sense of the word meant to mentally intimidate and coerce a woman into sex and I personally think that PUA, Game, and the sale of any and ALL Game materials should be made entirely illegal UNLESS it starts containing information regarding Laws on those subjects: Rape, Sexual Abuse, Sexual Assault, Sexual Coercion, etc. I also think that the “Gurus” who are selling this information should not be allowed to misrepresent themselves as self-proclaimed “Professionals” when they are NOT and do NOT have any credentials in those fields.)
We DO intend to have the authorities and Professionals in the fields of Law Enforcement, Medicine, Psychology, Counselors, Therapists, and Behavioral Analysis have ACCESS to these “Seduction Methods” and make that determination for themselves.
That is our right and it is every single person in the United States’ right as well.
[i]Dave, I do not believe those things and I know for a fact that Denise does not either. Women are NOT superior to men. Women are NOT morally superior, either. No one ever said “testosterone” is bad. Neither are your sexual urges.[/i]
I’m not talking about your personal beliefs. I’m talking about the overriding cultural zeitgeist that conditions us men to internalize those things.
School systems whose answer to rambunctious little boys is to drug ‘em into submission with psychoactive drugs like ritalin.
Entertainment media and commercials that endlessly portray the images of dumbass men and incompetent fathers looking to their supermom women to rescue them and tell them what to do.
A culture in which women feel perfectly fine wearing shirts that say “Men Are Pigs”
Or women who commonly say things like “there’s too much testosterone in here!”
This is the overriding message from our culture, and unless a boy has a strong, positive male role model in his life, he internalizes these things and doesn’t even realize it.
He looks at all females as his superior, his authority figure.
Than he wonders why when he acts like society tells him he should act like to be “acceptable” to women, gets nothing but contempt and rejection for it.
LR, I am a guy. I discovered Roissy’s blog through the HBDosphere, which basically consists of bitter man children blaming their failures on Affirmative Action and “low IQ minorities” rather than their own personality issues. They use their own high IQs as acrutch to feel better about themselves and look down on others. What a suprise that this same crowd have lots of trouble not creeping out women or getting into LTRs. What a suprise that these folks are as sexist as they are racist. Roissy and his fans are a menace to society.
We are a country FULL of men who internalize these cultural messages, and we act like we think we should act, than we wonder why women by and large reject us.
Many, many men take on the role of trying to be understanding, caring, open, vulnerable and work to communicate our feelings and be open and honest with women…for this is what society tells us we SHOULD be like to be rewarded with a wonderful relationship with a wonderful woman…
…than are bewildered by all the women that “fall for the jerks.”
“GAME” merely provides insight as to why this formerly completely mysterious phenomena occurs.
NO woman can be “tricked” into sex with “GAME.”
GAME doesn’t advocate rape.
Neither does it advocate abuse. Much of the examples you and Denise are trying to use about Roissy are in most cases NOT roissy advocating men abuse women, but rather MAKING NOTE that many, many women are attracted to and repeatedly return to abusive men.
Why is this so?
Why did Rhianna go right back to Chris Brown after he beat the shit out of her? People like Denise and their overwrought sense of educational knowledge will claim it’s because of his abusive behavior lowers her self-esteem and degrades her into a stockholm syndrome type of situation. I don’t buy it. I’ve seen people in abusive relationships, and IT TAKES TWO TO CREATE A DESTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP CYCLE.
All people like Denise et al focus on is the evil, bad man like Chris who physically assaulted her – never holding women accountable for continually escalating and confrontational behavior, deliberately provoking men they know are capable of abuse, continually pushing their buttons and even attacking the man first, until the man finally loses control and abuses them. Than she claims total victimhood. It’s bullshit.
Many of us see this exact scenario play out, over and over again. Women who act like complete sociopaths that deliberately provoke men into violence than play the victim card. And they keep going back for more. And the people like Denise keep feeding us this bullshit explanation about how Men are responsible for these destructive relationships…and we see that such explanations are all LIES.
So we ask ourselves WHY do women like Rhianna go back for more…
And then we discover “GAME” and it lays out a logical explanation that makes far more sense…
…that women are attracted to dominance in men — and that “dominance” can and does have both positive and negative expressions.
THAT is why Chris Brown can beat the shit out of Rhianna and she tells the media that she “Still Loves Him.”
No amount of degrees, educational accomplishments and claims of expertise by people like Denise can convince those of us that see the truth of such observations.
LR, I am a guy. I discovered Roissy’s blog through the HBDosphere, which basically consists of bitter man children blaming their failures on Affirmative Action and “low IQ minorities” rather than their own personality issues. They use their own high IQs as acrutch to feel better about themselves and look down on others. What a suprise that this same crowd have lots of trouble not creeping out women or getting into LTRs. What a suprise that these folks are as sexist as they are racist. Roissy and his fans are a menace to society.
I am quite sure there are not that many “high IQ’s” judging by how evident to Denise and I it is that these men are not even aware of or understand the laws surrounding rape and intent. They seem to believe that when one of these women accuses them of rape that these “Seduction Gurus” will somehow be able to get them out of it. I think it’s really sad, though that these guys seem to genuinely think that they can use “any means necessary to get laid” and NOT be prosecuted and NOT be considered a rapist.
I wonder if they would feel the same way if it was THEIR daughter who had been “isolated” and “coerced” into ignoring her boundaries. I wonder if they will say “Well she shouldn’t have been dumb enough to be brainwashed without her knowledge or consent”. I wonder if these men would want a man like this within 20 miles of their daughters, let alone “isolating” her to get her alone with them.
I wonder if these guys don’t realize that a Judge and Jury are not going to consider “Well I paid for this information and it works so I didn’t commit a crime! Right? Right?” (As they are dragging them away in handcuffs).
I do not understand in any way this attitude that women somehow “deserve it” and are “asking to be gamed/manipulated/coerced/intimidated by them”.
If a man used “verbal and mental intimidation and coercion” on MY little niece, it would be his last day on earth whether he “meant to” or not.
I am again THANKING you for having the balls to stand up against this bullshit and show these men how a REAL man acts and thinks. The men who are practicing Game and are AWARE of the methods they are using and who are intentionally remaining ignorant of what horror it can cause are NOT men at all. They are not even human. And they are the reason why women are so “paranoid” and “unapproachable” in the first place.
These men are hurting men everywhere with their ignorance, their beliefs, and their actions and I am glad to see yet another man who is tired of this kind of behavior.
There is no excuse for “abuse” of ANY person of ANY gender and there is NO oppression great enough to excuse intentionally oppressing and abusing MORE innocent people.
Dave–
I do understand those things. I am not denying that they exist. I am not trying to excuse those women and those beliefs. There IS no excuse.
However, I think you know that for each and every example you give of how men are “oppressed in advance” I could also provide an equally “unfair” way that women are “programmed” by society as well.
I am not attempting to excuse those women. I am not attempting to BLAME men for seeking Game and the advice of the Seduction Community. I have stated here clearly that I believe that men were tossed into a new Feminist (I say Feminist meaning REAL Feminisim: “Having and equal and fair shot along with everyone else”) World and expected to IMMEDIATELY understand, change their views, change their ways, and see things through new eyes without being given the proper tools, re-education, and sources of information to do so.
I think that is VERY unfair to men. I think it is NOT acceptable. I do NOT blame men for this.
I also think in the same way that WOMEN were not properly re-educated on how to properly behave and treat men (and their newfound freedoms) in this same new Feminist World. They were not taught how to NOT become tyrants (like some of the men who used to oppress them) ….they were NOT taught the difference between “equality and superiority” and they were NOT taught the difference between “speaking your mind” and “making unjust demands”. They were NOT given the proper boundaries and set of guidelines to follow to avoid what is now an obvious problem:
Men are oppressing and abusing women.
Women are oppressing and abusing men.
Both genders are doing this because they have NOT been properly re-educated of what is and is NOT acceptable, what is “equality”, what is Misogyny, what is Misandry, what is abuse, what is not, what is “misuse of power”, what is not…etc. etc.
There ARE many of the overwhelming “messages from our culture” that are intended to emasculate and shame men ….just for being men.
There ARE many of the overwhelming “messages from our culture” that are intended to oppress and shame women….just for being women.
We are guilty as a culture for punishing something that we were NOT given a choice in (our genders) and are also punishing EACH OTHER for NOT having that choice.
It sounds so ridiculous when it’s said like that, doesn’t it? So simple. And yet look at all this misunderstanding and hatred that comes from things that we cannot change. And if we COULD (and probably will be able to someday) have a choice in our gender somehow before we are born, would it really make anything better? NO, probably not. The human race as we know it would probably end.
I’ve said it before a trillion times elsewhere and I’ll say it again: THERE CAN BE NO WINNER IN A GENDER WAR WITHOUT BOTH SIDES LOSING!!
I only have a bit of time toinght for this but I have to say that this most recent post from Dave From Hawaii is a stellar example of FAULTY LOGIC.
There is a great little book called “Crimes Against Logic” – I forget the author and my copy is in my other office.
I don’t have the energy or time right now to go through the many crimes against logic in dave’s posts, but suffice it to say there are many.
Dave: I encourage you to re-read your own posts here and subsitute the word “men” for every time you’ve written the word “women”
Perhaps then you’ll see how you are not making any sense whatsoever.
Attempting to communicate with the logically-challenged is truly exhausting.
Denise
LR EDIT: In Dave’s defense, Denise….we DID pick him apart here and he had the balls to come here and NOT childishly insult and attack us with retarded insults (like Seeking Alpha did) so let’s give him credit for what many of these guys did NOT have the balls to do. And that’s lay his beliefs on the line and be vulnerable to our attacks of them. *LR shakes her finger at Denise*
Remember “Good Cop/Bad Cop”? I definitely cannot take over the position of “Good Cop” goddamn you, woman
LR – You know, I don’t disagree with everything you’ve written…some of it I do agree with. But perhaps we can take a step back here. I don’t have anymore time til next week.
As for Denise, I am going to highlight the absurdity of her reply here by using a trick she’s recommending, but with a different twist:
I only have a bit of time toinght for this but I have to say that this most recent post from Denise is a stellar example of FAULTY LOGIC.
There is a great little book called “Crimes Against Logic” – I forget the author and my copy is in my other office.
I don’t have the energy or time right now to go through the many crimes against logic in denise’s posts, but suffice it to say there are many.
Denise: I encourage you to quit resorting to evasions and appeals to your supposed status as an authority simply because you have all those degrees and letters next to your name, and try and answer one, simple, honest and easy question that I posed initially…
Perhaps then we’ll see how you are not making any sense whatsoever.
And yes I agree – attempting to communicate with the logically-challenged who think that posting definitions of words and concepts and theoretical dissertations about skinheads and the KKK, and trying to make a tenuous connection between Game advocates and these groups substitutes for substantive debate is truly exhausting.
But back to that question: do you understand what the concept of hypergamy means, and how it impacts a relationship between a man and a woman?
LR EDIT: Dave, I hope you don’t mind my italicizing the part that Denise previously stated. I added the Italics for the sake of clarity.
In truth, Dave the reason that women like Rihanna go back to those men is the same reason why Chris Brown hits her:
They are both deeply in need of Psychological Help and serious Counseling/Therapy.
You are basing your view of women (and the world) on the LOWEST sorts of women. On the most “emotionally unhealthy” of women. On the most EVIL of women, even!
That is what started this mess in the first place, Dave. Women basing their views of men on the abusers, the rapists, the misogynists, the criminals. And forming their opinion of men and the world on the lowest human life forms of the male gender (and subsequently punishing ALL men who are NOT guilty of those things and who would NEVER condone them).
Don’t you see how your attitude is EXACTLY the same as the attitude women unfairly have about men? You are punishing ALL women for the behaviors and attitudes of the LOWEST human forms of that gender (and subsequently punishing innocent women for beliefs they would NEVER have, for things they would NEVER condone, and crimes they NEVER committed).
This is what breeds more fear and more hatred. This is also what widens the already Grand Canyon size divide between the genders. We are different…..but not that different.
Don’t you realize that is exactly what got us here in the first place?
That what you are saying is exactly what “Revenge Feminists” are guilty of?
I wish that in some way I could REALLY make you see the point that I am really and truly trying to make in saying those things to you.
LR – I’m not trying to “punish” women at all.
LR EDIT: I don’t think you are “trying” to punish women. But that doesn’t mean that you are not.
I’m merely pointing out the following:
1) Men are raised in this current culture that they have to act and behave one way to attract a woman/women to make her happy.
2) Men are than mystified when they do these things and it doesn’t work…furthermore, they notice the men who are jerks, violent, abusive, etc. seem to get all the women.
LR EDIT: Agreed. However I do think that those SAME men are only seeing what they want to see and are NOT seeing the many women who appreciate and revere the men who do NOT do those things. It’s always much easier to see the negative than the positive for whatever reason. That is definitely something that knows no gender, race, or age.
3) Than they study “GAME” and gain an understanding of the concept of hypergamy.
LR EDIT: That may be true. However, they also may gain an UNFAIR view of women by studying Game and I don’t think that you will deny that fact.
4) This is where all this controversy than comes in: women are attracted to dominance.
DOMINANCE is NOT either positive or negative, in and of itself…but it CAN be either or both.
You can ask most any woman nowadays, and they will almost all agree that they want a man who is “confident and assertive.” That’s just a positive expression of social dominance.
Does that make sense?
LR EDIT: Yes, I understand your point. Women do tend to want this ‘perfect’ balance of manliness and sensitivity, aggression and compassion, and strength and kindness. It is of course any woman’s “ideal”. However any woman who EXPECTS to find all of those things in one man and discards men who do NOT fit those perfect standards is not a woman who you should want to waste your time on. I realize that there are MANY of those women (and definitely many of those men) and that is one of the sources of where this attitude amongst both genders came from. The generation of entitlement is something that we are all guilty of regardless of gender.
Anyways, my time online for this week is done.
Look LR – yeah, I haven’t said some particularly nice things to/about you – but I have to say that reading your take on myself, my wife and my marriage was highly insulting and infuriating.
LR EDIT: I do apologize for that and I DEFINITELY know how it feels to be discussed and condemned without even knowing you were being discussed. Not a very good feeling. I will say this, though….someone else mentioned you and I probably would not have done that if you had not been “made an topic of discussion”. I am far from perfect.
But at least you can debate somewhat honestly, even if we do end up talking past each other.
LR EDIT: LOL. I’ll take “somewhat” for the time being.
Denise, on the other hand, has pretty much been a complete bust. She posts other peoples research, or definitions of terms, or excuses as to why she cannot answer…hiding behind her credentials and assumed position of academic authority.
LR EDIT: I will not speak FOR Denise, but she and I have had private discussions and she and I really ARE both equally shocked at how much hatred and bitterness there is amongst the genders. Just remember that her credentials and “professional position” do not mean that she is not allowed to have human emotions and reactions and be subject to some of the same “weaknesses” and prejudices that we all have. If she no longer had human emotions and human faults she would not be a very good at her job anymore.
LR – You know, I don’t disagree with everything you’ve written…some of it I do agree with. But perhaps we can take a step back here. I don’t have anymore time til next week.
Dave–
Good! That was my only intention. Trying to discuss the truth about all of us and what we are all guilty of (to some degree, I mean). Please feel free to come back and continue the discussion when you have the time to do so. I will happily and candidly discuss any and all things you wish to discuss or ask. This is why I am addressing these issues.
I was NOT aware until not too long ago the very REAL PAIN that evidently both men and women are still feeling regarding how they view the world (and gender differences) and how they view their beliefs and how those beliefs came to exist in the first place.
It is VERY disturbing to me that I was NOT aware of all these issues that are apparently festering deep in our psyches and I am NOT going to pretend they don’t exist now that I AM aware.
I do believe many men feel this pain, confusion, bitterness, and even hatred for a very good reason. That does not mean I excuse their actions, but it also does not mean that I believe those men to be “bad” for having them. Large groups of people (regardless of gender) do not ALL have some of these very similar feelings unless there really ARE some truth to them that clearly need to be addressed. I do NOT believe you are making these things up and I do NOT think that they are to be “dismissed” just because men USED to have the upper-hand (for lack of better words).
a 40 year old, successful, smart, tall, white man in DC. Roissy has a very good job if that is in fact him. What’s your job desi? Curry cook?
……………………………………………………………..
That was funny. Eveyone knows Desis have the best jobs in America. We are the “model minority” — doctors, engineers, lawyers, i-bankers.
But funnier is Jeff’s crush on Roissy. Sounds like Jeff has finally found his soul mate. If anybody should buy anyone a drink, it’s Jeff for Roissy.
Mader chod.
LR EDIT: Don’t forget Jeff’s OTHER personality needs a drink as well: “Jack”. I wonder which one is supposed to be the “smart” one and which one is supposed to be the “scary” one?
a 40 year old, successful, smart, tall, white man in DC. Roissy has a very good job if that is in fact him. What’s your job desi? Curry cook?
……………………………………………………………..
That was funny. Eveyone knows Desis have the best jobs in America. We are the “model minority” — doctors, engineers, lawyers, i-bankers.
But funnier is Jeff’s crush on Roissy. Sounds like Jeff has finally found his soul mate. If anybody should buy anyone a drink, it’s Jeff for Roissy.
Mader chod.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The techniques used by PUAs to get women back to their apartments – whether NLP or just cracking jokes or whatever, I don’t see these as dangerous. Afterall, the woman is the one who DECIDES if she leaves the bar with a man or not. So how could just techniques be deemed “deceptive”?
I seriously doubt if any woman in this day and age thinks a guy using lines on her in bar and then asking her to go home with him is truly, deeply, madly interested in her on the soul level.
Women know the score.
“I discovered Roissy’s blog through the HBDosphere, which basically consists of bitter man children blaming their failures on Affirmative Action and “low IQ minorities” rather than their own personality issues.”
HA! I can beat that! I discovered Roissy’s blog through a COMEDY WEBSITE! They person who linked his blog thought that it HAD to be an elaborate joke and PRAYED that it was a parody. Imagine my surprise! I was hoping the same thing when I actually went and read there…..and realized it was NOT a joke…..and now here we are
AGH! In our comment frenzy here I realized I totally forgot to post about my court date!
It’s a fun story and especially fun for those of you who hate me because I got yelled at by the Judge TWICE!
However, a win in court is a win in court, eh?
Sorry, I’ll get on that tomorrow for those that are interested! (And no I’ll not be providing names, that’s only reserved for my most SPECIAL friends
)
Aleksyss K Tyler of Vagina Power addresses the players, gamers and “dysfunctional dicks” (her words not mine) here;
http://www.youtube.com/user/alexyktylor#p/u/47/J7QnW5-ObeE
Some more advice for the New Year here;
http://vaginapower.ning.com/video/2110114:Video:17
Sounds interesting LR.
1. Aleksyss K Tyler of Vagina Power addresses the players, gamers, and “dysfuntional dicks” (her words not mine) here, as well as “qualifying” the man;
http://www.youtube.com/user/alexyktylor#p/u/47/J7QnW5-ObeE
2. Addressing what women really want and they lie to themselves;
http://www.youtube.com/user/alexyktylor#p/u/299/vWj5cgNkplM
3. Man ho’s: penis power and it’s influence on women (and yeah, that’s her mama sittin’ there while she talkin’ this ish, hilarious, Jack Rabbits!);
4. And some good advice when you spend the night;
http://vaginapower.ning.com/video/2110114:Video:17
Sounds interesting LR.
2. Addressing what women really want and they lie to themselves;
http://www.youtube.com/user/alexyktylor#p/u/299/vWj5cgNkplM
3. Man ho’s: penis power and it’s influence on women (and yeah, that’s her mama sittin’ there while she talkin’ this ish, hilarious, Jack Rabbits!);
4. And some good advice when you spend the night;
http://vaginapower.ning.com/video/2110114:Video:17
Tried posting 4 links here and it didn’t work. Whats up?
Desi–
Hmmm there is nothing in moderation folder.
I definitely didn’t mod anything.
Maybe its lagging and I haven’t gotten it yet somehow?
Try posting them again, maybe?
You don’t mean those videos, do you? Because they are showing up fine on my end!
What videos? I tried posting four. Where are they?
Hmm, well I can see 4 videos on my end but it says they are from “No more” and not from you.
Are you talking about four additional videos?
I am so confused! I truly am. I can see the 4 videos on my end but maybe I’m seeing the wrong ones?!
Oh god, lol……sometimes I really hate being the person here who is supposed to know what’s going on!
Hmmm I’ll check the actual Word Press “SPAM” folder but I don’t know why they’d go there without asking me to just “approve” them!
Then again, Word Press just did some auto-updates so maybe its screwing something up somehow?
I’ll keep looking if they aren’t the ones I’m seeing here.
The techniques used by PUAs to get women back to their apartments – whether NLP or just cracking jokes or whatever, I don’t see these as dangerous. Afterall, the woman is the one who DECIDES if she leaves the bar with a man or not. So how could just techniques be deemed “deceptive”?
I seriously doubt if any woman in this day and age thinks a guy using lines on her in bar and then asking her to go home with him is truly, deeply, madly interested in her on the soul level.
Women know the score.
Desi fPUA is right.
Denise: NLP is stupid. I agree. I haven’t read anything on it and “Speed Seduction” is a load of crap. But barring this I can’t comprehend you really think game is “mind control”. You need to really understand game if that’s how you feel. Are you telling me “negging/disqualifying/teasing” are mind control? Jesus, this is a joke then. The game to me is strictly building a personality that is attractive and following a model which tells me to attract before I go into comfort. Before I knew about game I always went into comfort like your typical “nice guy” and got LJBF’ed at least 5 times. No, thank you.
I’ll throw my two cents in again on that.
Even though I already said this: I am not really focused on “playful teasing”. Of course everyone does that. I probably do more of that than anyone.
However, I do think that “taunting/teasing” can certainly be used to Behaviorally Condition a person (I am using Carl Jung’s definition of that in my opinion).
For an example:
If a man is taunting and teasing a woman everytime she gets on his nerves, turns down his sexual advances, “nags” him, disagrees, has valid concerns, etc. he IS behaviorally conditioning her to NOT voice those concerns, deny those sexual advances, etc. by training her to be afraid of being taunted, put down, shamed, or laughed at for having those (maybe very valid) feelings.
That IS behavioral conditioning her to “be what he wants” and that IS mental abuse.
There are no clear boundaries set for the men studying Game and something as simple as those teases and taunts can quickly take a turn toward actual mental abuse and intimidation.
Anyone who has been in an abusive relationship whether male or female whether high intellect or low intellect knows that mental conditioning by a partner who is supposed to love you can be terrifying, confusing, upsetting, and traumatic in many ways.
Remember my “shocking a dog” example (and its one that Psychology teachers will use to make behavioral conditioning easy to understand). A dog will respond to whatever will NOT get him shocked/punished even if whatever that is would NOT be something he would otherwise do by choice. The same conditioned dog will not KNOW why he does or does not do those things (not consciously, at least) but will do them anyway.
That is something that should be taken very seriously (I don’t mean the actual taunting/teasing example, I mean the Behavioral Conditioning in general). That is why it has always been considered so controversial.
Many of the seduction techniques like trying to get sex from her faster by using similar “punishment/reward” techniques to break down her defenses and specifically “isolate” her ARE examples of conditioning her to fear punishment or shame everytime she says “no” or turns you down.
That is extremely demented and is certainly mental abuse and sexual abuse in my opinion.
It would be like women being taught how to “get to a man’s money” faster by emasculating, shaming, taunting, and even misrepresenting yourself to make him trust you with his finances faster.
An example of that is when a sudden “Power of Attorney” change is made by preying on a person who’s defenses are down (sick, weak, injured, depressed, etc). That behavior is not deemed “acceptable” and that person can have that power of attorney taken away from them if they are found to have coerced or intimidated the person into giving them that power, even if the (sick) person is lucid and SAYS they are fine with it.
Many proponents of Game would be considered if nothing else “under diress” and that is considered illegal and certainly immoral.
Those boundaries are not clearly outlines by the Gurus and I find that to be increasingly suspicious (since any that have been asked brush off their social responsibility to the men they are teaching it to) and certainly negligent.
Posts with multiple links are often getting flat-out eaten by WordPress. Happens on other blogs, too.
LR EDIT: Yeah, I’ve had that before….but even some of Denise’s posts that contain no links are suddenly ending up in SPAM without even asking to be moderated! It’s weird because I have the SPAM filters on the lowest allowed settings by wordpress!
LR, I feel like I owe you a response (even though I wasn’t gonna) because you wrote a book of a reply. How do you then explain naturals doing all the stuff PUAs do? Much of the game I study I have noticed is modeled after my “natural friends”. They tease, attract before they go into comfort etc. And mind you, these people haven’t read anything about pick up. You have also got it wrong when you say, ” you tease her when she voices genuine concerns.” All of us are not Roissy. I said in my previous posts in case you missed it, I think most of the stuff Roissy puts up on his blog is stupid and ridiculous.
That being said, game is not mind control. You are not changing a woman’s behaviour. For example, with isolation, no matter how attracted a girl is to you, she will most likely not kiss you or give you her number openly in front of her friends. If she’s voicing genuine concerns, you are not supposed to tease her. You are supposed to be genuine in return. Read any “credible” pick up advice and you will see what I mean.
Agreed that this industry is full of bad apples who are spewing bullshit and teaching stuff that doesn;t even work. But hey, that’s like any business industry. I stick to only a couple of PU companies (and you probably know which ones) and I don’t blindly follow them. Once I read your stuff, I realized that’s what exactly most of my friends who were getting laid doing. And none of them is an asshole like Roissy or a wife beater.
The whole thing with game (whether learned or natural) is that you are being different from all the other guys out there. Nowadays, our culture is such that most men are afraid to be men and really nice and boring. They end up getting LJBF’ed. Any good-looking girl at a bar/club gets hit on by so many guys with lines like, “You are so pretty, can I buy you a drink?”, or ‘You are so cute’ (meanwhile the guy is slurring this and drunk outta his mind). So, when you go up to her and are not afraid to tease her, call her out on her bullshit, and show that you are not fazed by her beauty, she IS attracted to you. This isn’t some sort of “mind control” or jedi trick.
Just a type lol: Once i read their stuff***, not “your” haha
Man, I am late to this post. Anyways, here is my take on it:
It is kind of funny, in a sad way, that Roissy lies about his age on his blog. I wonder if he does this in real life to the “ladies”?
On his blog he tries to come off as a “too cool for school” dude in his early 30′s who is just playing the market.
Being a PUA or even wanna-be PUA is forgivable for someone in his 20′s or even, at the latest, 30′s
However, the fact that he is in his 40′s changes things. He is a few years away from becoming a running gag: the out-of-touch-disco-duck who trolls the bars and clubs for girls who are drunk enough to fall for his “game.”
Oh, well.
Just goes to show you: don’t believe everything you read on blogs.
LR EDIT: According to a woman who recently contacted me and said that she dated Roissy about one year ago (and was rightfully ashamed) he ALSO lied to her and women he dates about his age. She said she had to quick go through his wallet while he was in the shower to find out that TWO YEARS AGO he was 42 (so it’s possibly he’s older than what I posted, but I consider her particular email to be strictly hearsay for obvious reasons.)
Yeah, I see leisure suits and gold chains with chest hair in his very near future. The thing is that makes his advice SO ridiculous is that he acts like he LIKES being childless, wifeless, with no prospects, and STILL trolling bars like a 20 year old when he’s in his mid 40′s??? I do not know ANY men that age who try to say they “love being a bachelor”. Most of them are rightfully “sick of the bar scene” and just having a hard time finding a “nice women” maybe because of their job, their lack of time, lack of confidence, a bad previous marriage, whatever……but an “intentional bachelor”???? No way.
Kam – “negging/disqualifying/teasing”
no, i do not see the above as mind control.
I DO see the misuse of NLP and hypnosis techniques as unethical undue influence and forms of psychological coercion.
AND, I see LMR as physically aggressive, assaultive, and coercive.
d
LR EDIT: I most certainly agree with Denise on that point.
kam – are you building a genuine personality or a fake personality?
and for what purpose?
LR – you’ve just reminded me of something I forgot about with your great post on social condition.
The use of “intermittent reinforcement” is absolutely an example of social conditioning and is completely abusive.
A student of Love Systems told me he uses this alot b/c it works. Well, it is still abusive.
He had zero awareness that this was abusive or why.
It is abusive because it goes right back to what we know of social conditioning to control others.
and contrary to what PUA teaches, women do not want to be constantly kept on our toes, wondering what is next, will you be a jerk or a nice guy this time?
That is what intermittent reinforcement is: it is consciously alternating mean behavior with positive behavior to keep her hooked. She is NOT hooked because she likes THAT behavior.
She is hooked bc she likes you when you’re nice to her. When you’re not nice to her, she is upset and hurt but you’ve done this so many times, that she hopes for the nice guy to return.
THIS is why women so often remain in abusive relationships or return to them – NOT because they like it (whiskey and you others out there) – but bc the abusers are screwing with the abusees’ minds in order to intentionally create confusion within them.
THAT is why it often takes people (ROG) to leave abusive relationships. Not all people, some leave right away after one instance. But others, through no fault of their own stay for a myriad of complicated reasons:
1. the kids
2. finances, having no job, no savings
3. fear
4. having nowhere to go
5. still loving the abuser despite the abuse (NOT because of it!!!)
6. they may have grown up in an abusive home and they may be already psychologically conditioned to find abuse familiar or even normal.
intermittent reinforcemnet IS Abusive.
kam – re: naturals -
are they being their genuine selves or are they being disingenuous?
are their goals purely to get laid and do they make that clear or are they being deceptive?
we’re not arguing about what is or is not effective; we’re arguing about what is and is not unethical, abusive, manipulative, deceptive, coercive, and assaultive.
I’m sure there are ways in which men feel deceived by women – i’ve read about a few of them on blogs:
things that disguise her appearance or age seem to really piss off men.
I would imagine those things piss off women also.
we’re saying that men and women both need to be held to the same ethical standards when dating and relating.
testing 1 2 3
I feel sorry for the poor infant and his parents in this picture from his last blog post -
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/12/25/merry-christmas/#comment-151671
*Roissy really has some DEEP psychological issues.
ATTENTION EVERYONE:
I DON’T KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS/IS WITH YOUR COMMENTS GOING TO SPAM (INCLUDING DENISE’S) AND I HAVE NO IDEA WHY.
I DIDN’T CHANGE ANY SETTINGS OR MAKE ANY CHANGES AND I HAVE NONE OF MY OWN SPAM FILTERS IN PLACE (MEANING IT’S WHATEVER WORDPRESS SETS IT TO).
I have no idea why your comments went there but I approved them all and you should see them appearing around the site very shortly. I apologize to Denise and anyone else who’s comments went there and I’m going to double check and see what’s going on here.
I do know that Word Press did some automatic updating of the entire site including changes to “blog stats” and some other things and I’m wondering if maybe it’s causing some temporary technical issues????
If anyone knows or has any idea of what may have been changed either on my blog or by wordpress that I need to adjust please let me know.
In the meantime, until I figure out why those comments went to SPAM I’ll just have to keep a close eye on the SPAM folder and drag the comments back out and post them for you guys.
I’m really sorry, I don’t know why this is suddenly happening, I’ve not had this particular problem before.
ANY FEEDBACK ON THIS WOULD BE MUCH APPRECIATED TO SAVE MY SANITY!!!!!
Thanks for your patience!
Lady Raine
Uh HUH=
I know….this is what I mean. Roissy has absolutely ZERO regard for families and children. It’s one thing of you want to post public figures, media icons, movie stars, etc…..but he CONSTANTLY goes skulking around for people’s private family photos that they probably aren’t “tech savvy” enough to know that AREN’T private enough.
It fucking pisses me off and I’ll tell you the truth, I’d like to find each and every parent and parent w/ child photo he’s posted and see if they are aware and okay with their fucking FAMILY PHOTOS being posted on the equivalent of a hard core porn site like his.
It’s disgusting and I don’t think ANY photos including children no matter WHAT the context should be posted there (and he shouldn’t be because of his rating anyway).
LR, I think someone is messing with your site. See my latest message over on the “profiling vs game” post.
LR EDIT: Hmmm….lol that would be a very deadly mistake. Let me check.
“Many of the seduction techniques like trying to get sex from her faster by using similar “punishment/reward” techniques to break down her defenses and specifically “isolate” her ARE examples of conditioning her to fear punishment or shame everytime she says “no” or turns you down.”…..
Lady Raine, no matter how fast you “try” to get sex from someone, unless they WANT to, they will NOT agree to go home with you and give it to you. We are talking about grown, legal aged adults in clubs and other public spaces here, NOT kids home alone with older adults who are preying on the confusions and naiveties of childhood.
LR EDIT: That is absolutely untrue (not the apart about a woman CHOOSING to go home with a man). A woman or man CAN be intimidated and coerced into sex or sexual acts using many different methods. In truth, I’d really like you to check out some facts about brainwashing, mind control, psychic suggestion, and mental conditioning. It is something that each and every person on earth is susceptible to without having ANY knowledge or memory of those things having been done to them (think about how a person can be hypnotized for an hour and say and do all this stuff and then when they awake they refuse to believe that they were under hypnosis and truly have no knowledge or memory of the time that passed, the things they said or did, or even that the hypnosis even BEGAN yet) That’s obviously just an example, but it’s a very accurate one.
Kam’s comment:
“Nowadays, our culture is such that most men are afraid to be men and really nice and boring.”……………….
No, I would say that most men REALLY ARE nice and boring by nature.
The fact that they have to “learn” game means that it is not natural to them.
If this is the case, then game is setting up a false premise of what it means to be a “man”. That “being a man” means you are not nice and boring. But guess what? MANY men (maybe most, according to you) are indeed nice and boring.
So basically you are putting down and shaming men for being what they truly are – nice and boring. Telling them that they are not “real men”, which is hogwash.
Nothing wrong with nice and boring. Many people I know are nice and boring and they get through life just fine.
LR EDIT: Yeah, I second this. Maybe if I was looking for just a “wild date” for a night I’d not want “nice and boring” but I have never been “turned off” by a man who is interested in me approaching me with a genuine smile and a kind word. I AM however turned off by a man who has some stupid line, silly persona, or arrogant swagger about him. If he approaches me with arrogance, he’ll get nowhere fast.
That’s why I don’t understand WHAT women these guys are looking at as the example of “what women like”. I consider myself a pretty normal woman in terms of having ideals, but not having ridiculous ones….having preferences, but not having rigid and ridiculous ones….etc. I don’t understand where these women all congregate that supposedly want a relationship with a wild, crazy, unpredictable man. I know as an adult woman that those things are NOT synonymous with a “man I can trust and feel secure around” and I’d never want those qualities in a long term partner or even a “long term dating” type of things.
The only women I’ve seen who “prefer” these things are dumb, usually drunk, college girls who are not in any way “real women” yet.
That being said, game is not mind control. You are not changing a woman’s behaviour. For example, with isolation, no matter how attracted a girl is to you, she will most likely not kiss you or give you her number openly in front of her friends. If she’s voicing genuine concerns, you are not supposed to tease her. You are supposed to be genuine in return. Read any “credible” pick up advice and you will see what I mean.
With this I do disagree entirely. You are not changing a woman’s behavior directly, no. But you are TRAINING her to react differently to situations, things you say, things you do, things she wants to say to you….etc. I do think ESPECIALLY that trying to make a woman feel “afraid of losing you” by intentionally being nice and lovey and then, WHAM….you pull back and act like you are angry/tired of/indifferent to her…..that is totally unacceptable and demented. I don’t see how anyone could see it any differently.
Preying on her feelings for you? Making her afraid of losing you? Making her think maybe she’s not good enough for you? Those are all things that Game teaches and they ARE mentally abusive whether you care to believe it or not. Any good counselor would tell you that and be correct. You say that the more credible sources of Game do not teach those things, but so far the attitude I’ve seen from/at various PUA sources is pretty much the same and all include some measure of intentionally abusive behavior. And even when confronted with those behaviors, they register nothing but smugness and saying “well it works so who cares”. So whatever these NOT abusive sources ARE, clearly nearly none of the PUA’s are using them.
That and the ever more suspicious connection to misogyny that MOST of them seem to share to some degree. Even Obsidian who claims to ONLY use positive Game uses language like “Winning”, “Gain the upper hand”, “being in control” etc. Those are all VERY abusive and VERY unhealthy behaviors. If you have ever been with an abusive man or woman you WOULD understand how powerful that kind of influence can be on ANY ONE. And not in a good way.
Agreed that this industry is full of bad apples who are spewing bullshit and teaching stuff that doesn;t even work. But hey, that’s like any business industry. I stick to only a couple of PU companies (and you probably know which ones) and I don’t blindly follow them. Once I read your stuff, I realized that’s what exactly most of my friends who were getting laid doing. And none of them is an asshole like Roissy or a wife beater.
I realize that most men are not looking for a way to abuse women…..but I do think that PUA’s are intentionally uncaring and totally irresponsible about the woman’s feelings that they are gaming. They assume that if she is STILL dating him, that means that she is happy with what they are doing to her. That is in NO WAY an indicator that a man is “doing it right”. As we have discussed, any human on earth can be conditioned to behave a certain way without knowing it, without knowing they are being abused, and without knowing to be upset about it (think about how when they interview a cult member they usually fight and scream to STAY with the cult, they SAY they WANT to be there…..then when they are removed and deprogrammed they cry and speak about the horrible abuse and the nightmare that their life was and that they didn’t realize.) They aren’t faking it. Mental Conditioning is THAT powerful a tool that can be used on ANYONE.
The whole thing with game (whether learned or natural) is that you are being different from all the other guys out there. Nowadays, our culture is such that most men are afraid to be men and really nice and boring. They end up getting LJBF’ed. Any good-looking girl at a bar/club gets hit on by so many guys with lines like, “You are so pretty, can I buy you a drink?”, or ‘You are so cute’ (meanwhile the guy is slurring this and drunk outta his mind). So, when you go up to her and are not afraid to tease her, call her out on her bullshit, and show that you are not fazed by her beauty, she IS attracted to you. This isn’t some sort of “mind control” or jedi trick.
No, I certainly would not say that what you mentioned in this segment is something I have a problem with. I don’t care if men are not worshiping women’s beauty and bowing at their feet, lol…..in truth though….one of the things that I don’t understand is why ANY “dating advice service” would tell men to go to bars/clubs to pick up women.
The moment you step into a bar or nightclub as a single man, you already have like 2 strikes against you. Women are taught from birth that men in bars are predators looking for sex. We are taught this by both the female AND male influences in our lives (our fathers, our brothers, our male friends, etc.) and I will never understand why men go that route.
You cannot honestly expect a women to see you as anything other than a sleaze if you are lurking in dance clubs where women go to hang with their friends (and as I said before, dancing has always been a girl thing that has nothing to do with men, dating, or picking men up) and especially a man who expects a woman to treat him with RESPECT and take him seriously when he is approaching her in a place like that.
I mean, I’ll be honest and maybe I’m the only women on earth who feels this way, but: Any man who approaches me in a bar is sort of thrown into “desperate slimebag” or “good for a one night stand only” part of my brain without question.
Women are raised that way and men seem to be “angry and indignant” about that fact. I mean, what do they expect when they are trolling bars? Expect to be considered “relationship material”? No way.
Regarding “mind control” or “manipulation”… using myself as an example, I can’t imagine EVER going home with a guy that I just met that night in a bar. Moreover I can’t imagine a man “manipulating” me into being attracted to him. Either I am or I’m not. The decision lies solely with me.
Am I an outlier amongst adult females?
LR, did you see my latest post on your “profiling vs game” blog regarding someone messing with your site?
LR EDIT: You mean where you asked me if I was using some sort of “tech voodoo”?? LOL. Yes…..I cannot for the life of me figure out what the hell is going on. I intend to find out, though and if it continues I’m going to contact Word Press directly about it.
Lady Raine, your following points are exactly why it’s IMPOSSIBLE for a grown adult woman to be “manipulated” by men in bars;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The moment you step into a bar or nightclub as a single man, you already have like 2 strikes against you. Women are taught from birth that men in bars are predators looking for sex. We are taught this by both the female AND male influences in our lives (our fathers, our brothers, our male friends, etc.) and I will never understand why men go that route.
You cannot honestly expect a women to see you as anything other than a sleaze if you are lurking in dance clubs where women go to hang with their friends (and as I said before, dancing has always been a girl thing that has nothing to do with men, dating, or picking men up) and especially a man who expects a woman to treat him with RESPECT and take him seriously when he is approaching her in a place like that.
I mean, I’ll be honest and maybe I’m the only women on earth who feels this way, but: Any man who approaches me in a bar is sort of thrown into “desperate slimebag” or “good for a one night stand only” part of my brain without question.
Women are raised that way and men seem to be “angry and indignant” about that fact. I mean, what do they expect when they are trolling bars? Expect to be considered “relationship material”? No way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
EXACTLY!!!
Women know the score when men approach them in bars. There is no “gray area”. Any woman who goes home with a man from a bar knows she is going home with Mr. Right Now, NOT Mr. Right.
Perhaps men are pissed off because it is THEY who are being gamed, all the while thinking they are gaming the women.
Ha. Ha.
As usual, the last laugh lies with US.
As usual, we still have the upper hand.
LR EDIT: I’m not talking about women who leave bars with men. I’m more referring to once you have already met and decided to go on a date. (ie: I’m sort of viewing the bar thing as the precursor to the first date in my examples….) I think MOST women who got to bars/clubs know that the men there are only looking for sex. I am not trying to make women NOT responsible for an active decision to leave a bar with a strange man (which I cannot imagine any intelligent woman doing) and if THOSE kind of women are what these guys are basing their view of women on it’s no wonder they have such crazy and skewed ideas of what “normal women” like and don’t like.
I mean, jesus….I can count on ONE HAND how many times I’ve been in a bar in the past 5 years or so. I sometimes feel ashamed just going in to grab a six pack on occasion when I want to have a few beers at home with friends and relax or whatever the case. Maybe that’s just because I don’t drink more than once every like 3 months or so.
Desi – i understand where you are coming from – however – any one of us *is* susceptible to certain methods which *do* work if used properly.
I once inflitrated a cult that a good friend of mine was in. I was there for an entire weekend and they used many mind control techniques. I literally watched more than 100 people get brainswashed right before my eyes.
It does work and it can work. And the fact that these methods are TAUGHT is unethical, irresponsible, and assaultive.
The extent to which these methods work is dependent on a lot of variables: the emotional and psychological resilience of the person it’s being used on at that time (this changes for people at different times in their lives), how well the techniques are being used, and other factors.
Yes, you sound strong, but alot of people (rog) are not and these things can and do work. especially since we’re talking about not just one technique but multiple techniques that are comprised of social, psychological, and physical pressures to be sexual.
Game teaches weaponry to men to weaken and destroy women’s healthy decision-making capabilities so men can get laid.
There is no regard whatsoever for being honest with her if sex is all he wants. There is no regard for what the woman wants or doesn’t want and why.
This is a serious serious problem.
LR EDIT: And more importantly that these methods are taught by people with no credentials and/or an understanding of what actual brainwashing IS….makes it extra-scary both for the men who are being taught these methods and also the women they are using it on.
Even Obsidian who claims to ONLY use positive Game uses language like “Winning”, “Gain the upper hand”, “being in control” etc. Those are all VERY abusive and VERY unhealthy behaviors.
……………………………………………………..
That’s for people who have been jaded. Once burnt, twice shy. Men and women in relationships these days seem to be “in competition” with one another for “the upper hand” in the relationship. “The Rules” and “Game” are both designed to give the reader or practitioner the “upper hand”.
This is to protect against heartbreak.
If a man is using “game” on you, then it does become a requirement to “gain the upper hand” over him and turn the “game” on it’s head.
Have you seen the movie TWO CAN PLAY THAT GAME?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0269341/
LR EDIT: See, that’s what I mean. I’m certainly no Dalai Lama and I would feel like a straight-up “snake-in-the-grass” if I caught myself thinking in terms of winning, controlling, or dominating a relationship. The fact that there are people out there who think that is acceptable even if they HAVE had their hearts broken a million times is really despicable to me.
There have been times after “heartbreak” that I knew I was still too “bitter” to start dating yet because I knew I may be unfair to my partner because of that, so you know what I did???? I ACTED LIKE A RESPONSIBLE HUMAN AND DIDN’T FUCKING DATE UNTIL I WAS IN A HEALTHY ENOUGH PLACE IN MY MIND TO DO SO!
If a person (male or female) IS thinking (even if just in their head) in terms of winning, controlling, and having the upper hand, they should NOT be dating and are being EXTREMELY unfair to their partner and in truth I feel that they deserve any and all heartbreak that they get for behaving that way.
I’d leave a person immediately if I thought they were looking at me as a “enemy” to have the upper hand over. I do think that my expectations on that are fair because I am not “above” anyone morally and STILL would be ashamed of myself if I behaved that way and I certainly expect other people to hold themselves to the same standards and if they don’t…..I really do think they deserve heartbreak and loneliness for as long as they are behaving/thinking that way.
There is ABSOLUTELY NO HEARTBREAK large enough or rampant enough to excuse ANY of that behavior.
If a man thought he needed an “upper hand” over me I’d promptly leave him and never look back without a hint of remorse for doing so and he’d rightfully deserve it because if he is thinking of me in those terms he does NOT love me, does NOT care for me, and in NO WAY respects me, my feelings, or my wants/needs.
Every person on earth should expect NO LESS from their partners. If you feel that your partner is trying to “win” or “compete” with you, I’d urge you to seek counseling if you are married and if not to leave that person immediately without question because they do NOT care for you in ANY way.
(Sorry Desi, you REALLY fired me up with that one. That sort of mindset truly enrages me.)
Desi and LR – i respectfully disagree.
Yes there are women who have been raised to or just do believe that men in bars or clubs should not be taken seriously.
However, there are many other women who see clubs (most have bars in them – so maybe i’m using your definintion of “bar” too broadly) and other places where alcohol is served as just normal socializing.
And frankly, I know alot of people who met their spouses at events or venues that have bars in them and have a “bar environment” like music clubs, dance clubs, corporate or alumni events held in bars and clubs, fundraisers held in bars, clubs or museums temporarily turned into alcohol-serving clubs, work events at clubs or upscale venues with bars in them, etc.
A lot of perfectly legit and seemingly non-pick up events have been “clubified” in the last decade – it’s become sort of the norm.
I was at a political fundraiser in Austin, TX in Sept and it was held in an upscale bar/club and was so loud I had to leave.
And on top of all that (alot is clubified, people have met spouses in such enviroments), the men pracitcing game will likely do all they can to convince a woman that they are *not* just looking for a one night stand – even if they are.
I disagree that it’s a given that all women or even most women write off men they meet in such situations.
Even the Metropolitan Museum of Art here in NYC has a weekly event on its roof that is a classy club environment with a bar. People *do* meet at these things and not all clubesque evironments are sleazy or solely for pick up (rog).
d
LR EDIT: Oh, don’t mistake my words, Denise….I’m not talking about upscale cocktail lounges and even your common “neighborhood haunt” where maybe people go to grab a drink after work. I’m referring more to the “meat market” clubs and skankier bars. I suppose I should have clarified that.
But also, I know my views about that stuff come from VERY strict parents who actually believe that ANYONE who so much as takes a sip of alcohol or steps into a bar is one step away from being Satan’s Lap-Dog (which obviously is NOT the truth). But I doubt that I’m the only girl in the world who was raised with more “traditional ideas and values” and has those same views of the men in bars. Most girls ARE taught by their fathers and brothers “Oh, well you met him in a BAR?? Well what did you expect?? A gentlemen? Duh.”
Denise, humans are being manipulated at every minute. Television and advertising are HUGE brainwashing cults. However, it is up to the viewer to decide if he/she wants to buy the product, despite the commercial playing on his/her insecurities. Religion is another brainwashing mechanism, but one can still participate in a religion (cult) without buying into EVERYTHING the religionists (cultists) are trying to sell them.
It’s called “thinking for yourself”.
I have intimate experience with religious cults and I don’t buy what many “ex cultists” claim that they were “brainwashed” to do illegal activities and other stupid stuff.
As adults we have to take personal responsibility.
LR EDIT: I do agree on adult being responsible in making their own decisions, but realize that an advertising company is not knocking on your door, lying to enter your home, and then trying to “isolate” you to use their brainwashing techniques on you. That’s the main issue that I have. You have the option to change the channel and NOT be brainwashed. These guys are taught to make sure that you’re in a position to make it nearly impossible to “change the channel”(so to speak) and NOT be brainwashed by them. And that IS the same techniques abusers, cults, and hate groups use to lure their victims and thwart any outside influence that may prevent that brainwashing.
There is A LOT of that in the “cutesy PUA language” that masks it’s much darker intentions. And the fact that a nobody like Neil Strauss and a MENTALIST like Mystery (mentalism meaning a person who is skilled in brainwashing, cold reading, and psychic suggestion) sort of PROVES those intentions to me. Mentalists are typically the people posing as “false psychics” and are DAMN GOOD at pretending to be exactly that. They are NOT typically very honest people and some use those mentalism skills for good and some use them for bad. Mystery has clearly used them to manipulate and control others and sees nothing wrong with that. It seems most people don’t even realize what a mentalist can DO or is all about. If they did, they’d realize why I say these things.
Desi, you’re right but i’m glad you brought this up b/c advertisers used to do even more manipulative things – like nanosecond flashes of phrases like “buy this” and those were banned and are now illegal – because they work and there is no way for our conscious minds to see that they’re even happening.
there are limits as to what is ethical.
Informed consent is the key to what is ethical.
that’s why on drug commercials when they show people saying how the drug helped them or they show a doctor saying how important the drug is, there is a statement on the tv that says, “these are paid actors”.
the same is true for when there are exercise or diet products sold on tv or in magazines and there is a statement that says “results vary widely”.
those statements are what make the otherwise influential advertising legal. without those statements, the advertising would have serious ethical problems.
You sound very intelligent and self-aware but alot of people are just not so. They are vulnerable.
And as for cults, I don’t know if you’ve read the work of Steve Hassan but he is a former cult member of scientology and he was actually quite high up in it but then got out and once he realized fully what happened to him and why he was susceptible to it all, he went back to school to learn counseling skills to help cult members, exiting cult members, former cult members and their families deal with this serious problem.
Those who are most susceptible to cults are people who are going through very painful or insecure periods of their lives or through transitions that upset their otherwise solid emotional and psychological resiliency.
College campuses are fertile grounds for cult recruiters. It is real.
As for doing illegal activities the only case I know enough about is the Patty Hearst case. I do believe that Stockholm Syndrome is real and that did what she had to in order to survive.
Not all cults are religious. There are certain criteria that a group has to meet in order to be classified as a cult and some cults are benign and some are destructive.
Yes, we do have to take personal responsibility – and that includes creating laws in our society that prevent the predatory practices that we know some individuals and groups and industries will use unless they are not allowed to do so.
One would think that we’d all take personal responsiiblity and not molest children, but there are sick people out there who do it anyway, and there are bystanders who see problematic behavior and suspect something is amiss but they don’t act and the molester continues.
Most people do have at least one period in their lives when they feel as though they’re in some sort of crisis – and it can be over so many different things. Cults have a way of honing in on people who are vulnerable in that way.
Many PUAs are taught to do the same thing – looking for vulnerablities in women – or creating vulnerabilities in women so they can then exploit those for their own personal gain without regard for the woman. This is a problem.
I agree with LR that PUAs do not go into this seeking or intending to be abusive to women or to be unethical. And I agree that they don’t even realize they’re being taught things that are unethical and could result in rape charges for themselves.
I think the ENTERTAINERS (not dating scientists or experts in any way) who sell this stuff ARE being negligent and do need to be held accountable.
They should at least answer our concerns in a civil manner, but they are unwilling to do so.
If there were no issue, they’d be able to answer us and they’d WANT to answer us. But they can’t. because we’re correct in what we’re saying.
Even Tylenol, which DID have a security breach, cared enough about its reputation to say “Yes, we had a problem and we are so sorry and we have immediately fixed it because we do not want to harm anyone ever”.
These PUA companies are more like Enron – “What? there’s no problem! what are you talking about? Stop worrying! You’re crazy!”.
Than, BAM!
Big problem.
Fraud. Same thing here. PUA companies teach men to defraud women on every level using unethical means which are psychologically and physically coercive.
Denise–
For some reason, now ALL OF YOUR COMMENTS are going into my SPAM folder automatically and obviously I have not put you into filtering or anything like that. Even when you have no links.
I changed my SPAM settings even lower and am now allowing 8 links per comment before any comments are held for moderation and I cannot for the life of me figure out why now just YOURS are staying there.
Did you change anything on your links/site since last night that could be causing this?
Do me a favor and make sure you don’t somehow have “untrusted” links or maybe even dead links on your site.
If anyone else knows why Denise’s regular comments are going to my SPAM folder please fill me in because I have checked and rechecked and I still have none of my own filters in place.
What the hell could it be????
“Informed consent is the key to what is ethical.”
True. The onus lies on the buyer to investigate the product.
Women shouldn’t believe everything that is told to them by a man in a social setting, whether an upscale event or a dive bar.
That’s when you give yourself TIME to get to know the dude and do a background check on him.
If he’s legit – pursue it.
If he’s not – leave it.
It’s hard for me to sympathize with grown adult women who go home with a man after meeting him for the first time ANYWHERE, who then cry about being “used”.
I mean DUH. It’s a no-brainer.
As far as Mystery and other’s using manipulative “mentalist” techniques, I’d have to be shown a video or something of what exactly it is they are doing.
I’ve seen a few episodes of Mystery’s old VH1 show and all he was doing was wearing silly clothes too young for his age, chatting up women with corny jokes and “negs”, and “kino-escalating” i.e. touching them by tapping their hands, rubbing their shoulders or whatever. Standard corny moves that hold no power or sway over the mind of an adult.
Dressing lame, telling lame jokes and lame touches are not “powerful” mind-controlling techniques so please give me specific examples of what you are talking about.
LR EDIT: There ya go. That’s one of my issues on this. These guys are being told to push the women to NOT spend time getting to know him…..to force her to feel like she HAS to move quickly or lose you….like there is something WRONG with her if she wants to “take that time” and especially using unethical ways and sometimes outright LIES to get her to put that trust in you.
I feel that even if that was in NO WAY “manipulative”, it is still very unhealthy for many obvious reasons and also because this makes women even MORE paranoid (rightfully) about the men that may be approaching them, makes women even MORE likely to avoid interacting with men in public, even MORE likely to have (possibly unfair) views on men’s approaches, and will contribute to MORE instances of misunderstanding and paranoia between the sexes.
I just don’t see even ONE positive thing in Game that ISN’T only positive for the MAN using it. He is essentially hurting all other men who are approaching women in an honest manner and making it more difficult to “trust and communicate” with men and also making women less likely to even engage with them in the first place.
I see it as a lose-lose all around for the woman being gamed, the common men who are out just trying to strike up a good old fashioned conversation with a woman, and also hurts any chances of women seeing men as anything more than the “drooling, sex obsessed, cocks-on-wheels” that the Revenge Feminists are working so hard to paint them as.
LR, someone might be hacking/messing with your site intentionally.
But LR, the ONLY women who will go home with and sleep with a man after being “gamed” by him in a bar or public space, are the women who WANT to. Remember, many women LIKE one night stands, no strings attached sex TOO!
For the men that want to approach women for real friendship, dating and possible LTRs, well, there are PLENTY of women who like that as well.
A man who wants a real relationship would not want to be with a one night stand type of woman anyway, so if she spurns him, it just means he weeds her out and can move on to a woman who wants the same thing he does.
In GAME, both the “players” and the “played” were really born for each other.
LR EDIT: Oh, I know definitely. I’ve had many times where I went on a date with a guy knowing I had no real “long term” interest in him and just thought he was hot. Like I said before….I don’t consider the original meeting up in a bar a “date” so I wasn’t really even thinking in that direction. More like the dates that may follow AFTER you have met in a bar, exchanged phone numbers, and maybe had some conversation. A bar is public and allows many chances to walk away….it’s what these guys are doing AFTER the first introduction that I have most of my issues with.
Yes women DEFINITELY go looking for that sort of “casual” meet up more and more often these days and if that’s their prerogative than good because then the guys who are looking for that will leave the rest of us alone!
OH, Desi….if you just read a short bio on Mystery in a variety of places he IS either being tagged as a “Mentalist” or is tagging HIMSELF as a Mentalist. Either way, that means that not only is he already at a HUGE advantage over most people in general even WITHOUT Game…..but it also means that he is aware of and likely to be practicing psychic suggestion, cold reading, and even some basic profiling skills. That also means that he is trained to “look for a weakness” and capitalize on it.
That is how those “fake psychics” come off as so believable and SO accurate that you think “there’s no way this guy ISN’T a psychic” and will hand their money over to him as exactly that.
Also realize that if he IS actually a Mentalist, that means that he is ALSO very skilled in “looking for the tells” in the people he is selling his information to and knows EXACTLY how to make sure that they feel like he is “talking right to them” as the saying goes.
That makes me believe that he is even SLEAZIER than I originally thought.
Mind you, some mentalists are really and truly just THAT interested and enraptured by the Human Mind (which I totally understand and concur) but it seems a little…..errr….coincidental that a man that knows how to read, manipulate, and even lead a person’s thought and behavior is the guy who is selling this advice without any boundaries or warnings of how delicate the “human mind/feelings/emotions” are. That sort of makes it even MORE negligent to me than if he was some guy who really DIDN’T know how susceptible the human mind is to these sorts of things and the power it can have.
If you are interested in understanding what a Mentalist studies/practices/learns, I’d definitely check out some info on it. That is, in truth what originally steered me toward Criminal Profiling techniques in the first place. Profiling also takes a bit a mentalism and cold reading, but puts a more accurate and unbiased “Psychology Based” spin on it. Basically it tends to be a more “factual” way of reading and understanding human behavior and sets much clearer boundaries on what it should and should not be used for (ie: Profiling is only used to better understand a person’s mind/behavior as opposed to also then USING that information to influence the person being profiled like mentalism and cold reading tend to do). Obviously Criminal Profilers are using those techniques to UNDERSTAND the criminal they are looking for and figure out what they are and are not likely to do next (usually before the criminal himself even knows), thus making it much easier and faster to catch them, of course.
Obviously, though since these techniques are mostly only available to the FBI and larger Units of Law Enforcement those Profilers also have access to the normal information about the suspect to come to those conclusions and educated predictions (which helps a lot, too).
I don’t see anything dangerous about being a “mentalist” if that is what Mystery is and does. The guy was a geek and he read up on some techniques, employed them in his personal life, wrote a book, had a TV show. He’s an amateur.
I simply do not see how dressing up in a particular way to make oneself attractive to the type of girls that like that sort of fashion sense (Mystery has a fetish for “goth” girls, and appearantly they dig that type of clothing), doing a few magic tricks, telling corny jokes and teasing, and “kino-escalting” …. is “dangerous”.
At the end of his entire routine, the ONLY women who will sleep with him are the ones that WANT to. I guarantee you they are not innocent virgins or women with high values and standards.
I don’t like to use derogatory language but you and I both know what kind of women Mystery gets. They are the same women that many other men have already “gotten” before he came along, and many other men continue to “get” after Mystery becomes history.
That’s why I say, the players and the played are made for each other.
At the end of the day, there is no “game”.
LR, someone might be hacking/messing with your site intentionally.
Yes, I know and I changed my password……but they’ll be pretty sorry because I use professional hacker-locater software on my computer (thanks dad!) that will give me precise locations on who, where, when, and how the person is hacking my site and I’ll be able to log their info and return the favor if necessary.
I am allowing my hacker software to “watch” the activity today and log it and then I’m going to pick through it bit by bit and find out exactly what the source is. Much like “tracing a call” the longer I allow them to “connect with me” ……the more information on them my software will pick up.
Don’t worry, I stay one step ahead with that stuff since I tend to do a lot of ….errr…..private investigations and things of that nature that REALLY piss people off and draw unwanted hacker-attention.
As of right now I am allowing the connections and letting my software log it…IF there is any hacker activity, I’ll know and so will the rest of the world when I post all their information
If necessary I’ll use a MAC-Spoofer to constantly change/filter/divert my location and info, and subsequently IP that it doesn’t even remain the same long enough to log it. I have it already on here but I don’t like to engage and use it unless necessary because that basically makes me a hacker too and I think it’s sleazy to do that if I don’t need to.
Let’s just say in case that IS what’s going on, I’m attempting to “flush them out” by allowing it.
Here’s a comment from the SPEARHEAD’S “end of marriage” blog;
“That’s why bachelor vacations (or celibacy) and a hardened heart is the way to go to fuck over women. Game does get the man sex but it also fulfills the female desire for sexy sperm. Let’s not give these cunts anything anymore.”
LR EDIT: YES! Please give us your golden sperm! At least they’re talking about celibacy which is something I’d highly recommend for any man who is hanging out over there. We assure you that your “sexy sperm” will not be missed and neither will your dusty and flaccid penises.
Sorry, guys…I’ve had it with Obsidian and his bullshit and that was MUCH nicer than what I really think about him.
He goes and posts over at a site like the spearhead that celebrates when a woman gets murdered and then comes here and tries to act like he’s anything BUT another Misogynistic piece of shit like those guys and it pisses me off that he is SO delusional he CLEARLY hasn’t noticed that not ONE commenter here has EVER backed up anything he says or even addressed his comments because even the people who read here and are AGAINST whatever I have to say don’t want to be associated with him and the sorts of men who suck each other’s collective dicks at The Spearhead every time they “Teach another cunt a lesson” or see an innocent woman being abused.
You’d think he’d realize that the very fact that those sorts of lower life forms that congregate at The Spearhead pat him on the head should indicate exactly where he stands in integrity.
I sincerely hope that the men over at The Spearhead eventually get what they deserve and that’s being arrested and convicted of being the Rapists, Abusers, Molesters, and generally sick demented fucks they are and I hope that they are castrated and removed from society as soon as possible.
These are the sorts of men that make me believe that some men need to be given Vasectomies at birth to prevent breeding any more of those sorts of “people”.
End Rant.
“That’s why bachelor vacations (or celibacy) and a hardened heart is the way to go to fuck over women. Game does get the man sex but it also fulfills the female desire for sexy sperm. Let’s not give these cunts anything anymore.”
HA HAHAHA see? Yeah, as if women are marrying them for their “golden sperm”. Do they not realize that they are LAST MEN that a woman would want any sperm from? Yeah, because when a woman has the option of going to a sperm bank and selecting a gorgeous, brilliant, successful rocket scientist…..they’ll surely opt instead for some free sperm from a bunch of twisted Psychopaths instead.
You caught us, gentlemen…..we can’t POSSIBLY get “sexy sperm” any other way and THAT’S why women want sex. I’m sure that most lucid men realize that their sperm and their penis’s are truly a dime a dozen in a Medically Modern world when a woman can practically choose what their children will look like and be like in advance without ever touching a penis at all if they don’t want to (even though I think those sorts of options are rather creepy and unnatural, but I understand that there are many women who either HAVE to choose that option or prefer it for increasingly obvious reasons.)
(And I highly doubt that those men have put their penis instead a woman in the last 20 years or so….let alone THEIR SPERM. Jesus, they need to get a grip on reality and realize that as long as they act like Criminals and talk like Criminals they’re going to be discarded and last pick by ANY woman and that explains why they only attract these “dumb cunts” that they speak of. Yeah, nothing attracts a quality woman like celebrating the murders of women, elevating deadbeat dads to the status of Gods, and using sexy expressions like those to make us ladies want to “drop our panties” for them.)
Okay, continue conversating….I have to go get ready because Wes is coming over tonight and I think he’ll be pissed if he finds out that I’m running late again because I’m blogging when I’m supposed to be seeing him, lol….
I’ll check back in a little while. Fortunately he has no desire to read my blog because he says he can only imagine the sorts of horror and madness that I’m the cause of, lol….
Ahhh, he knows me well.
If there is ever a movie made about my life (for God knows what reason) I’m calling Janice Dickinson as the actress to play me IN ADVANCE. She’ll probably be dead by then, but I can hope can’t I?
You’re a riot LR!!! What I really think is awesome is that Denise took the information provided about Roissy on your blog (thanks to him digging his own grave by ILLEGALLY posting pics of your CHILD on an X-rated site) and ran with it all the way to the …. not bank…. but the legal authorities.
Now the “roissysphere” can just sit back and wait for the LEGAL AUTHORITIES to give their verdict on whether or not anything Roissy said or did over at his site was illegal.
Ooooooh what big, strong cave men they are! From behind their anonymous computers they grunt and front like MASTERS of the UNIVERSE, but when confronted with REAL authority and REAL men, they cower and hide …. never to blog again.
LOL.
It’s the times we live in.
Let them eat cake.
LR EDIT: I took the information to the authorities as well….a very long time ago. Not the info about my son (because I do not want him involved) but about the other children most certainly. We will continue to send them the links to his blog and our concerns.
LR,
You mention that women can just go to sperm banks. If that is the case, just do that; and dont bother any men for money. You seem to want to discuss one side of feminsm but not subjects such as paternity fraud.
You liken game to mind control but you don’t mention feminism’s connection with socialism. Also some who post here have poked fun at the Roissy author’s status and apartment. I have to ask again: Do you have a problem with certain techniques found under the umbrella of game or do you have a problem with certain men gaining access to sex?
LR,
You mention that women can just go to sperm banks. If that is the case, just do that; and dont bother any men for money. You seem to want to discuss one side of feminsm but not subjects such as paternity fraud.
I bet you figured you’d have a pretty solid argument there, huh? First of all, I have never collected even ONE DIME of Child Support from my ex. I never wanted it and I never will. He is a slimebag and I have no want or need for his money. He was an abuser and therefore I do not want any influence from him in my life. I do not collect Welfare and never have (and I make too much money any way). So if you are attempting to fling a barb, you failed.
I don’t understand your point about “Don’t bother men for money” though. If a man and woman engage in sex, they are both aware that a pregnancy could result. This is a risk every person takes. I don’t see what argument you could have in this area. If a man is the one who has custody of the child, then the woman obviously owes HIM Child Support. If the woman has custody of the Child, then the man owes HER Child Support.
I don’t see where there could possibly be any argument in this. Whomever is raising the child has to provide a proper home, electric, food, heat, hot water, schooling, college, transportation, daycare, babysitters, and anything else they need. Therefore I think that whichever parent does NOT have custody should clearly pay Child Support. What is the argument there? If you engaged in sex and you were both willing partners in the act of sex, then you are both responsible for the child that may be conceived. Period.
You liken game to mind control but you don’t mention feminism’s connection with socialism. Also some who post here have poked fun at the Roissy author’s status and apartment. I have to ask again: Do you have a problem with certain techniques found under the umbrella of game or do you have a problem with certain men gaining access to sex?
I have to assume that you have not read anything here that I have ever said. You are speaking of Revenge Feminists who take what they are not owed under the veil of “previous oppression” that they may or may not have ever been subjected to. I have openly condemned those Revenge Feminists time and time again and think that they are JUST as guilty as Misogynists.
I have no problem with “men having access to sex” but I have a problem with your statement. Women are human beings….not “sex holes”. You have all the access in the world to sex. You may call an escort, you may pick up a hooker, you may visit a strip club and look at the ladies all night if you feel so inclined.
Furthermore, I am very much FOR the legalization of Prostitution for that very reason. I would like men and women to have access to “controlled” sex that is truly “just sex”. I think it would alleviate many of the problems of men treating “regular women” as if they somehow OWE them sex just because they are women and have the right equipment.
There is not a man or woman on this earth who is “owed” sex just for being born a nice guy/nice girl. Sex is not something that any person cannot live without and it certainly is not something that you HAVE to attain and HAVE to use “any means necessary” to gain. It is not food, water, or shelter and you do not need it to live. It is a PRIVILEGE whether you are a man or a woman just like a driver’s license.
Don’t act like “men having access to sex” is like “men having access to clean drinking water”. You are owed nothing by society or by women and neither are the Revenge Feminists who somehow think that men owe them “reparations” in the form of monetary payment. I do not, however see Child Support as a “reparation”. It is obvious that if you created a child then you and she are responsible for that choice and that action.
Men and women who do NOT want to be in any way responsible for a possible pregnancy have the option of having a Tubal Ligation (female) or a Vasectomy (male). If you do NOT opt for one of those choices before engaging in sex then you are responsible for what comes out of that sexual experience.
Period. Next question?
Pingback: Hit Coffee » What’s the Greek word for weasel?
I was out so I will not reply to some of the posts made after my post. LR and Denise, the naturals I am talking about are not putting on a show. That is actually their personality. They tease girls, have interesting personalities, don’t put women up on a pedestal and do many of the things that I have read in pick up material.
Denise: We already agree on NLP and speed seduction being bullshit. And you have to give credit to the main guys out there like Savoy and Mystery not teaching NLP in their books and other advice etc.
Game isn’t putting a mask on LR. Only, it has taught me to be more honest and sincere with the girls I like. Instead of being their friend first and hoping that she’ll like me if I continue on doing nice things for her, I am as honest as I can be in my intentions. If anything I think “nice guys” are manipulative. When I see a girl I like, I tell her straight up that I think she is attractive and cute.
I fully agree with Desi FPua. Game isn’t mind control. At the end of the day, these are all adults and only sleeping with these guys because they want to and are attracted enough.
Also, LR you are so wrong about guys and girls meeting at clubs and not getting into relationships. For example, my friends (most of whom are in their mid-20s) go to clubs to blow off steam and have fun. Most of them are university educated and have professional jobs. It’s the same with girls. When they are done exams or just wanna blow off steam they go clubbing. This is just a stereotype that only sluts go to clubs and you can never find someone you would wanna date at a club. When we used to finish semesters we would all go clubbing (all my guy friends) and I am sure a lot of girls would do the same. So, you are telling me a girl who is college educated, has a good job, is in her mid-20s and goes clubbing with her friends to get drunk and party is a slut. No way!
Anyway, I feel we are going around in circles. I say the same thing, then you and Denise say the same thing. I think we have reached an impasse.
“When we used to finish semesters we would all go clubbing (all my guy friends) and I am sure a lot of girls would do the same. So, you are telling me a girl who is college educated, has a good job, is in her mid-20s and goes clubbing with her friends to get drunk and party is a slut. No way!”
Fair enough. But people looking for one night stands also know where to go to get them – the very same clubs that some other people go to to “blow off steam” as you say.
Sometimes one motive parrallells another, and sometimes they cross.
Elin Nordegren knocks out Tiger’s teeth, and there’s no arrest for domestic violence.
There’s a reason there are Roissys in this world. Female-led family law policies and social rules created him.
Desi, I agree with you, so we cannot assume that all women out dancing or in clubs are looking for one-night stands or even to be picked up for anything.
Maybe they are and maybe they aren’t.
tolkin:
In order to discuss these issues in a constructive and useful manner, I think we need to acknowledge that there is also a reason there are revenge feminists in this world.
Really they and the roissys and extremist MRAs (whose faulty logic and distorted “scientific theories” also unfortunately inform the PUA community/industry) — have an enormous amount in common.
Their positions exist because of very real harm that has been done to BOTH men and women over centuries that is a result of SEXISM which has informed and justiifed societal customs, expectations and laws that have egregiously HARMED BOTH GENDERS.
Sexism greatly harms both men and women – as does cherry-picking from valid scientific robust theories and then intentionally distorting them or using them out of context and without full knowledge and understanding of what those theories actually mean.
Human beings are constantly evolving. The misuse of Evolutionary Pschology by the MRA community and the PUA industry/community is really egregious in that it sells men complete snake oil and women then must deal with increasing numbers of men who have bought this faulty “information” hook, line, and sinker.
Men are being “gamed” by game and fleeced by an industry that doesn’t care that what it sells is false, unethical, dangerous, potentially criminal, and damages both men and women.
Are you aware of male-led laws and poliices that existed for centuries that harmed women – which the current laws exist in response to?
Are you also aware that the family law policies that currently exist have also been and continue to be supported by men?
I’m not saying that reform is not needed; it is. However, please do not inaccurately state that only women led the laws to what they are today.
And, please do not ignore the fact that those laws are merely a pendulumatic response to centuries of laws and policies that egregiously harmed women, men, and children.
Denise
Surprise surprise, “Jimmy the Jew,” another perfidious Jew in the world!
”Desi, I agree with you, so we cannot assume that all women out dancing or in clubs are looking for one-night stands or even to be picked up for anything.
Maybe they are and maybe they aren’t.”
If they are not then “game” would be irrelevent to them, not dangerous.
“When we used to finish semesters we would all go clubbing (all my guy friends) and I am sure a lot of girls would do the same. So, you are telling me a girl who is college educated, has a good job, is in her mid-20s and goes clubbing with her friends to get drunk and party is a slut. No way!”
Fair enough. But people looking for one night stands also know where to go to get them – the very same clubs that some other people go to to “blow off steam” as you say.
Sometimes one motive parrallells another, and sometimes they cross.
You guys aren’t paying attention to what I said. I never said ANYTHING about the girls who go to clubs being sluts. What I said was that women who go to clubs are most often NOT there to pick up men. I also said that women are notorious for “liking to dance” much more than men do. The men MAY go there just to hang out or whatever…..but I think it’s obvious that a larger portion are going there …..because they know WOMEN go there with WOMEN friends….and therefore are there to try to “move in” on some of that action.
It seems that some of these guys want to believe that “any girl who goes to a club is there for men”. WRONG. That’s what you have been TOLD to believe so that you can tell yourself that they are there because they WANT to get laid….they WANT to get Gamed….that they GO THERE for that purpose.
That’s just ridiculous and untrue. THAT was the point I made….I never said “oh only sluts go there”.
I said that the MEN who go there are most often going to pick up chicks because THEY KNOW GIRLS GO THERE. I hardly think that it’s a far reaching statement.
Now if there were a bunch of scantily clad women drinking at a notoriously male sports’ bar THEN maybe you could assume that those girls are probably there to pick up men.
It just amazes me that there’s this attitude that no matter HOW a woman acts, WHAT she says……she means the opposite and is just “testing you”. Most people call that DELUSIONAL and the PUA’s are teaching men to live in delusion so that they do NOT have to feel “guiltly” for there creepy, manipulative, and sometimes abusive behavior toward the women they are trying to date.
There is nothing progressive or healthy about being taught to be delusional and stereotypical JUST to save your precious egos. GROW UP!
Roissy makes very useful advice for women either.
It is well known to anyone how women are attracted to dangerous and violent men. Roissy doesplay the role fathers used to, by showing women the consequences of such decisions.
There is no other blog on the internet showing so clearly how thrill leads to pain
LR EDIT: The reason why there is no other blog on that is because no human with an education would post that, believe that, or back such nonsense up. The ONLY women who intentionally pick abusers are women who are have deep psychological issues and it doesn’t surprise me that Roissy has somehow managed to ONLY meet the rare percentage of women who do that/like that.
If you truly believe that, than I have to assume that you have never even MET a woman, spoken to a woman, or dated a woman and are going by what you see on popular media sources and celebrity gossip (most of those people ARE deeply psychologically disturbed.)
Shocking.
anyway, I still want to know if ms Romano ismarried or not.
LR EDIT: Ugh, no woman with sense gets married until she has nothing better left to do…or I suppose if there’s some reason she’d feel it necessary to be married to have children, but I have never seen the connection between having to get married to have children. Nope. No thanks. I don’t like anyone having a say in what I do with my son, but me.
I feel a husband/wife is a distraction from your children that is pretty unnecessary and mostly just a bother.
There’s really nothing a woman these days NEEDS marriage for and that’s why less and less women feel any desire to do so. For me it’s mostly I don’t like anyone but ME involved in my finances, my decisions, my home and how it’s run (which is of course MY WAY like a drill sergeant, and especially NOT my son). I like to have men around of course….but not involved in matters of importance in my life.
I think a lot of modern women (and obviously men too) see less and less reasons to consider marriage.
Not only is Ms. Romano patently wrongabout her characterization of some kind of “alliance” between the PUA and MRa communities (something easily documented and DISproven, as recently as late Summer last year; a HUGE “war” erupted between the two sides in the blogosphere. See RooshV’s comments, my own, Ferdinand Bardamu, Chuck Ross, etc et al.), but she’s also flatout wrong that ANY MRA has influenced ANY Game thinker or writer of ANY wide ranging repute. Again, we see that both Lady Raine and Ms. Denise Romano are stuck on Roissy, and as sujch, show a much more personal axe to grind than any depth with the issues of either the PUA or MRA communities.
Moreover, Ms. Romano’s flatout refusal to speak out against the violent actions of Ms. Elin Woods directly contradicts her own exhortations to all Men to speakout against Roissy; the record clearly shows I have done the latter well before it became popular to do so. There is absolutely no evidence here or on either of Ms. Romano’s blogsites showing they’ve done the same wrt Ms. Woods or any other Woman who’s been documented as having abused Men, such as false rape accuser Crystal Gale Mangum of the Duke LaCrosse Scandal, or Mary Winkler, who killed her husband, the late Rev. Winkler in cold blood by shooting him in the back with a shotgun at close range and while he was asleep. Until Ms. Romano and Lady Raine both have demonstrated their vociferous speaking against the specific acts of violence and abuse of these Women against Men, I submit that they have NO moral authority, to say anything else, to demand that Men anywhere do or speakout against anything.
Lastly – I find it most interesting that Ms. Romano can find all manner of time to post comments here and elsewhere, makeup new blogposts and the like, but cannot find the time to respond in point for point fashion to my recent Open Letter, itself a reply to her Aug 1 2009 blogpost on her site, EQ With Denise. After nearly a week with nearly no response from Ms. Romano other than spam, I am beginning to openly question her intellectual honesty and the good faith with which I have attempted to engage her. She still has some time to respond in the spirit of good fath and academic inquiry, freedom and examination. I truly do hope she does so.
The Obsidian
desi fpua – i disagree.
gamers do not say “hi, i’m just looking for sex”.
they are taught to use every method they can to create a false sense of comfort that is not real through the use of deception, manipulation, outright lyng, and psychological coercion to make a woman feel that they are genuinely interested in her even if they are not.
I think we can assume that in any given nightspot there is a variation of women and men who are looking for nothing, just a fun night out with friends, hoping to meet someone with whom to have a meaningful relationship, hoping to meet Mr. or Ms. Right, or hoping for casual sex or a one-night stand.
Game teaches men to intentionally make women feel safe and comfortabl with them and teaches them to feign interest in who a woman is with the sole purpose of being sexual with her regardless of what is true for him or what her actual feelings, needs, and desires are.
This is a serious problem.
“It is well known to anyone how women are attracted to dangerous and violent men. Roissy doesplay the role fathers used to, by showing women the consequences of such decisions.
There is no other blog on the internet showing so clearly how thrill leads to pain”
DR: These statements are NOT factual. These are MYTHS that PUAs and MRAs intentionally perpetuate to justify their own manipulative and abusive behavior, because they have no desire or intention to change and improve those behaviors.
If roissy and his readers believe his blog is some kind of noble cautionary example of “thrill leads to pain” then he and they are deluded and he would make it clear that he is NOT kidding about much of what he says and his readers would not be so enthusiastically and genuinely misogynistic.
obsidian -
I have never said there is an alliance between PUAs and MRAs, however, I have observed, as others have, that the PUA industry has been clearly (mis)informed by MRA beliefs, which are illogical, factually incorrect, based on distortions of otherwise credible scientific theory, and inherently abusive.
Mystery’s book alone proves this.
“we see that both Lady Raine and Ms. Denise Romano are stuck on Roissy, and as sujch, show a much more personal axe to grind than any depth with the issues of either the PUA or MRA communities.”
You are mistaken. Apparently, you haven’t read much of what we’ve posted her to conclude that.
“Ms. Romano’s flatout refusal to speak out against the violent actions of Ms. Elin Woods directly contradicts her own exhortations to all Men to speakout against Roissy”
Again, you have missed what I’ve written about this apparently. And you are misquoting me, I asked men of principle who find roissy to be reprehensible to speak out against him; that does not include all men.
My focus is not and has not been to speak out against specific instances of female violence agianst men – or even to speak out against specific instances of male violence against women.
You are again missing the point. Since you’ve read my website, you can see that my focus is in addressing HUMAN BEHAVIOR regardless of gender. Only in focusing on that will we accomplish anything.
I do list links that are directed specifically to men because I find “game” and the extremist MRA movement to be particularly abusive and violent as well as extremely disturbing.
“I submit that they have NO moral authority, to say anything else, to demand that Men anywhere do or speakout against anything”
Again, you miss the point completely; we ARE speaking out and HAVE spoken out about HUMAN VIOLENCE.
My entire site is about how learning and developing NVC and EI skills help both men and women be better people, relationship partners, parents, family members, teammates, and employees.
Do you apply this same standard to MRAs who aren’t speaking out about specific crimes that men commit against women? I don’t see you doing that.
“I find it most interesting that Ms. Romano can find all manner of time to post comments here and elsewhere, makeup new blogposts and the like, but cannot find the time to respond in point for point fashion to my recent Open Letter:
Why is this interesting? I’ve sent you *several* short replies updating you on my many deadlines and priorities that existed for me before you wrote your letter to me.
“After nearly a week with nearly no response from Ms. Romano other than spam, I am beginning to openly question her intellectual honesty and the good faith with which I have attempted to engage her.”
Your sentence above is absolutely ridiculous. You KNOW that I have emailed you SEVERAL times to advise you of my deadlines and other priorities. YOU are being dishonest in your statement, and that is extremely disappointing.
“”She still has some time to respond in the spirit of good fath and academic inquiry, freedom and examination. I truly do hope she does so.”
YOU are not commucniating in good faith when you lie, as you’ve done in this post.
I’ve let you know at least four times of my deadlines and priorities and that I will respond to you when my schedule permits.
You really are being unreasoanble, ridiculous, and dishonest at this point.
Maybe you have nothing else to do but blog, but I have publishing deadlines, a personal life, obligations to meet other professional deadlines, and the closing out of one enormous job that is coming to an end.
You may have also heard of something called a blackberry – it’s portable and allows you to respond to posts and things while you’re also doing something else. I’m not going to respond to your letter to me while I’m in the midst of other things.
For the fifth or sixth time, I look forward to responding to you WHEN I AM ABLE TO DO SO – AFTER I meet obligations that existed BEFORE you wrote your letter to me.
Denise
LR, after reading your reply I am going to say we are not the ones who are delusional. It’s clearly you. I never said or claimed (neither do PUAs) that you can get all chicks. Anyone who claims that he can get every girl will appear on my bullshit radar. PUAs know and do tell men, you do not and CANNOT get every girl. You do not know which stage of life she is at. Maybe her dog died, she just got a divorce, isn’t looking for anything, works a job where she’s putting in 100hrs/week; you simply don’t know. Neither do we claim that every girl at a club is looking for a relationship or sex, but yes majority of those girls do feel good about themselves if they at least get approached, regardless of whether or not they want anything to do with the guy.
DR and LR, both of you have ignored my one question to you. The Game I study is broken down based on exactly what “naturals” do. They haven’t even heard about pickup. So, are you telling me all men are manipulative, deceptive, and abusive. If you seriously think, game is all those things get over yourself. Roissy is an asshole and no question about that. Please don’t use his blog to say game is all those things.
LR EDIT: That is because there is no such thing as a “natural”. There IS such a thing as a man who is naturally self-confident. That in itself attracts women and I’m sure that there are plenty of “naturals” who DO manipulate or do NOT manipulate women. I don’t really see what I am supposed to argue about that. Of course their are abusive dickheads that do NOT practice actual “Game”. I just figured that was obvious to anyone and everyone.
And although I don’t agree with naturals manipulating woman, they are not the ones standing on a pedestal teaching OTHER men how to mistreat women. It’s the sad and bitter men who have no luck with women who are teaching men to get addicted to a “false power” that they don’t have and never will have and use it to “thwart the enemy”.
Every PUA that “teaches” like Mystery, Neil Strauss, etc….are unattractive, skinny dorks who were CLEARLY ignored and mocked probably by both men and women for most of their life and now they want to teach every previously skinny, ugly dork how to seek “revenge” on all the Alpha Females who rejected them.
If it was a bunch of gorgeous, muscle bound, wealthy men teaching/selling Game I MIGHT be less likely to think they were out to “seek revenge on the women who rejected them”. It’s pretty obvious WHY those guys are selling Game (other than the obvious $$$ they are receiving from desperate men) and anyone who does NOT have some sort of “rejection issues to seek retribution for” can clearly see that.
Once the biggest hotties in the world start teaching Game than MAYBE I’d think it was ANYTHING other than the obvious “WAAAAH, I was rejected by the Cheerleader” revenge that it clearly is and the men it was clearly meant to target.
Of course the men learning it don’t see that because they want to believe that they AREN’T the rejected skinny dork that no woman wanted and no man wanted to befriend. Then they’d have to become introspective and see the truth about themselves which would never happen. Game has made sure of that. The whole attitude is “It’s not you, guys….it’s THEM” As if the women who rejected them didn’t have a reason to even though it happened over and over and over. Game gives them an excuse to believe that it’s anything BUT the possibility that maybe they ARE just really unattractive, really uninteresting, and really undateable.
oh ms Romano, those are not myths
I can personally attest that I had to be cheated, not once, but twice, in the most hurtful way, to realyze they are true
Had lady raine started reading roissy at 18, she wouldn’t get pregnat from some tattoed biker
LR EDIT: Um, considering that I have never even DATED a biker and my ex had no tattoos I don’t know what you are talking about and second….my pregnancy was not an accident. My ex and I had been living together as a couple for quite awhile and we were TRYING to get pregnant.
It wasn’t a mistake. I wanted a baby at 23 so that the rest of my life plan panned out properly and thus far it has exactly. My son is the greatest thing to happen to me and I’m really glad that I get to (selfishly) have him all to myself.
Way to prove you know absolutely nothing about ME, my ex, or even my situation.
“Game teaches men to intentionally make women feel safe and comfortabl with them and teaches them to feign interest in who a woman is with the sole purpose of being sexual with her regardless of what is true for him or what her actual feelings, needs, and desires are.
This is a serious problem.”
It’s only a problem IF the woman goes home with him.
And then, if she goes home with the dude, she obviously has no problem with it.
It’s a win/win.
Desi fpua, are you really a girl
? Seems like you understand where game comes from and how it’s not “abusive, manipulative, and deceptive.” Jesus, just saying all those things boggle my mind. Now, the next post will be DR and LR defining rape and saying how game is psychological rape.
LR EDIT: You can talk all day about how it’s NOT any of those things, but the moment a man is using manipulation, mental pressure, and verbal coercion he is getting her to consent “under duress” by LAW and that is LEGALLY considered sexual assault.
Ignoring it doesn’t change the fact that if you have done those things, you have sexually assaulted a woman. Period.
If a woman uses verbal, mental, or psychological coercion and pressure to coerce a man (or another woman for that matter) then she has sexually assaulted him.
Saying “nah uh” and “I disagree” doesn’t change what the Law is.
gig-
newsflash: your personal experiences do not reflect the truth about women or men; they only reflect your personal experiences and whatever you’ve chosen to be informed by.
I cannot speak for LR, but my take on roissy’s blog is that it would not at all innoculate any woman or man against the realworld risks and probabilities of encountering unpleasant relationship experiences, but rather would provide women with the disturbing realization that there are an alarming number of misguided, very hurt men in the world who would be served well by being committed to psychiatric wards for extended periods of time.
desi fpua – Perhaps I have been unclear, so I will try again:
PUA teaches men to stimulate FALSE senses of attraction, safety, and desire in women they target.
These are not REAL because they are based on deception, manipulation, psychological coercion, and outright lying – all without informed consent.
THAT is why it’s unethical.
So, yes it’s a problem when it “works” because it is a situation in which one person has completely conned another person using techniques that are designed to deceive and disregard the well-being, needs, and feelings of the woman.
Kam and the rest of you: all you have to do is read the mystery method and this is exactly what he prescribes that men do.
Denise,
newsflash,
I, not you, hold an MA in statistics and my income is tied to y statistic performance, so don’t teach me about anedocte and data
make no mistake, i hold the same opinions about women as Roissy’s. Yet, if I work 60, or 70 hours per week, it is because I firmly believe that any pleasure in life, be it cars, food, travel, hotels, wine, an so on, canonly be truly enjoyed if a woman is by your side. that’s why I work so hard. To fully enjoy that.
By doing so, the reality of my personal life , my friends’ lifes and what I see around me , imposed itself in a way it couldn’t be denied. Roissy only reinforced, and formalyzed, a view I already had and a view that cannot be falsified by looking at anedoctes
Roissy is as useful for girls as for boys. Itit conventional wisdom, traditional wisdom, and as everything traditional, he works to make the best for his followers.
LR EDIT: I truly feel sorry for you if you really believe you are seeing the things Roissy talks about. He lives in a world of total delusion and hatred for any and all women.
I also think it’s sad that you cannot enjoy life with a woman by your side considering that 95% of people seem to be able to find plenty of happiness in having a man/woman by their sides. If you cannot do that, then it is a problem with YOU not with the world, not with women, and not with the people you are dating.
Having one, two, even three truly “awful” experiences with women could mean it’s NOT you…..but if EVERY experience you have with women is similar to Roissy’s then it is obvious to any one that it’s YOU.
It’s sort of like when a man thinks every woman he has dated is “demanding and psycho” it’s likely that he’s the one who is having an issue and not vice versa.
Desi fpua, are you really a girl ? Seems like you understand where game comes from and how it’s not “abusive, manipulative, and deceptive.” Jesus, just saying all those things boggle my mind. Now, the next post will be DR and LR defining rape and saying how game is psychological rape.
………………………………
Nope. I’m not a girl, I’m a WOMAN. I don’t think that women are naive, silly, fumbling little girls. We are grown adults perfectly capable of making decisions like “do I want to go home with this dude or not?” “do I want to sleep with this dude or not”.
LR EDIT: Desi, I think you are still misunderstanding the point. No one here is talking about the original meeting or the decision to go home with a man or not. We are talking about what happens after that. We are talking about the coercion, deceit, manipulation, and intimidation that happens AFTER the “first introductions”. If you honestly feel that it’s acceptable for a man to treat you that way for ANY reason, then it’s clear that we have VERY different beliefs in men. Whether he is successful in manipulating you or not is not the question here. If he is using those methods on you….he’s a slimebag and should be avoided, discarded, and warned off to other women. I would NEVER tolerate that behavior from a man and he would NEVER get a second date if I found out that he lied about his age, lied about his job, embellished about his life, manipulated me, intimidated me, or attempted to insult me into whatever it was he wanted from me.
I’d be likely to have a large group of male friends/relatives beat his ass black and blue for even DARING to try. That’s behavior no quality woman should tolerate and a man who does it does NOT deserve to even be treated as a human being. If he doesn’t want to treat YOU as a woman deserving of respect, then he’s not a man that is worth befriending, dating, or even speaking to in politeness. Period. I don’t see what the question is.
If you sincerely do not believe that you can be mentally conditioned easily, without your knowledge, and without any recollection of it, then you really SHOULD study up on the facts about that a little bit.
Umm LR, the game never says it’s “THEM”. It always says it’s you. It’s you who needs to build a life. It’s you who needs to stop being a dork, it’s you who needs to stop being boring, it’s you who needs to build an attractive personality, and become confident. If you have read, The Mystery Method and Magic Bullets you can attest to the fact that not once it comes off as holding women responsible for their dating failures.
Whether you accept it or not, men and women are attracted to different features in the opposite sex. Good looks do help and PUAs will tell you that you can become somewhat good-looking by working out, dressing well, and having good body language.
And for the record most guys learning game aren’t skinny dorks. I always had a ton of friends but I was every girl’s best friend. Not their boyfriend. Also, a lot of these guys are well-respected and educated. Style went to university and is a well-known writer. Savoy went to Wharton, which is one of the best MBA schools in the world.
Desi Fpua, agreed you are a woman :p. I have never seen any of the claims being made on this site anywhere else. I have seen a few women taking note of “routines” and saying that guys are putting on a fake personality but I have never seen anyone claim Game being “abusive, and violent.” Certainly not “mind control”.
Your reply to my naturals question wasn’t answered. Instead you twisted it and somehow made it about PUAs again. If PUAs are doing what naturals are doing then game isn’t all those things. All PUAs have managed to do is decipher what naturals do step-by-step. So get real.
LR EDIT: I certainly DID answer your question about “naturals”. Do they manipulate and abuse women? I’m sure some of them do and some of them do not. I don’t understand what their could be to argue on that or what else I could possibly answer about that.
Obviously some men who have NOTHING TO DO WITH GAME use manipulative and abusive methods. I figured that was clear. At no point did I say “No naturally confident men use untoward techniques” and I never WOULD say that because it wouldn’t be true!
If that was NOT your question, then I apologize, but I feel that I answered it directly twice now.
DR, PUA doesn’t teach men to falsely simulate feelings of attraction and safety in women. WTF are you talking about? Either you are attracted or you are not. There is no such thing as false attraction. If you can attract a woman based on your confidence, body language, words, and your personality. It’s not fake. You talk like these women are 13 year olds who don’t know anything. There is nothing wrong in seeking external help from PUAs or other people to gain confidence and attract women.
LR EDIT: A woman can be “physically attracted” to a man but NOT want to have sex with him and STILL feel “forced” by coercion to do so. Many many men and women have been “attracted” to someone. That doesn’t mean that because they are ATTRACTED to you that they should accept whatever behavior you use to get them to sleep with you.
I just don’t see the argument. Any many who uses ANY dishonest means to get you in bed is a SLIMEBAG. Who could possibly argue with that? It seems that some men here feel that those behaviors are expected and to be tolerated and truly if a man is found to have used any deceit in “landing his woman” then he really does deserve all the heartbreak, hatred, and retribution that results.
Ms. Romano,
You have made numerous claims which, to date, you have not proven. For example, here are your comments just made a little while ago:
“PUA teaches men to stimulate FALSE senses of attraction, safety, and desire in women they target.
These are not REAL because they are based on deception, manipulation, psychological coercion, and outright lying – all without informed consent.
THAT is why it’s unethical.
So, yes it’s a problem when it “works” because it is a situation in which one person has completely conned another person using techniques that are designed to deceive and disregard the well-being, needs, and feelings of the woman.
Kam and the rest of you: all you have to do is read the mystery method and this is exactly what he prescribes that men do.”
What PROOF do you have of this? Systemically, I mean, and not in term of isolated incidents. For example, above you say that Game is “inherently abusive” – how so? And, how do you exactly define “abuse”? Are those definitions legally actionable, and if so, can you provide any evidence of PUAs who have been found liable by the courts? Are any of the leading minds and thinkers in the Seduction community, so adjudicated? IF so, please give names?
And yes, you have indeed emailed me – SEVERAL DAYS AGO. Since then, despite your purportedly busy schedule, you can find the time to interact on other blogs beside your own, and spread spam accross several blogs, my own among them (your completely off topic post on rape on my Open Letter thread). No one’s asking you to pen a magnum opus here – simply to take the same amount of time it took you to write the last response to me to actually point for point respond to my Open Letter.
I have to say Ms. Romano, that I am not finding much in the way of actual evidence that the letters behind your name to me carries much weight in the current discussion. If you say that Game is indeed inherently abusive, if it is indeed part and parcel of Hate Groups, and if indeed the MRA community has informed the PUA community, then you’ll have to do alot better than merely making appeals to authority; you will have to actually prove what you say is so. Prove that Style is indeed on par with OJ Simpson, Scott Peterson and Mike Tyson; prove that specific aspects of Game does indeed coerce Women into having sex with Men (other than NLP, which we both agree is indeed unethical); prove that Game operates without a Woman’s consent.
Now, I am a practitioner of Game. I have not now, nor have I ever, coerced in any way, any Woman to do something she did not want to do. I don’t condone that, don’t endorse it. Nor has anyone ever had to twist my arm to speak out against Roissy – I was doing that long before it became fashionable, before I had a blog of my own; I was speaking out against many of his points of view on his site.
My track record speaks for itself. And I take personal umbrage at your bromides against Game, your conflating personalities with facts, and your seeming personal vendetta-driven agenda. If you have evidence, bring it.
Otherwise, the constant appeals to authority, meandering and longwinded posts on your site, hit and run drive by pieces on Game and the like, are not befitting of a Columbia alum, twice ovr, to say nothing of what is fast appearing a duck-and-dodge attempt not to directly engage my point for point Open Letter to you, based on your Aug 1 2009 post on your blog. Not very becoming of a licensed counselling professional, to say nothing of an academic.
I await your response.
The Obsidian
LR EDIT: Yes, because I’m sure you even KNOW any Columbia grads….or any grads at all.
Based on your latest response, LR, I will say what I said last night. We have reached an impasse. I do not see your point in game being abusive, mind-controlling, violent, and manipulative. Let’s just stop this discussion right here
.
Denise, “game” is nothing more than techniques like overcoming shyness and nervousness and employing humor and touch to illicit attraction in a woman so as to either get her number, get a future date with her or get her to bed that night.
Any grown adult woman who CHOOSES to leave a public space and go home with a man she has JUST MET in a bar, is a slut, just like the man she goes home with. These are not naive little girls we are talking about here.
Since puberty every females parents and elders are warning her about men who “want just one thing”. By the time a female turns 18 and hits the clubs, she has been inundated with warnings and advise. She KNOWS players are out there and she KNOWS how to avoid them – um, just DON’T RESPOND TO THEM or be really bitchy or something.
The fact is that in today’s America we have thousands upon thousands of women who WANT THAT SORT OF ATTENTION FROM PLAYERS AND IN FACT WANT TO SLEEP WITH THEM.
That is their personal choice.
My question is: why are women sleeping with men they are NOT MARRIED TO? Or at least not in longterm relationships with?
That is the real issue.
Check out how corny these dorks are;
http://www.pickuptube.net/
Are you telling me that these silly boys are a “danger” to women?
LR EDIT: Well, yes I WILL agree that ANY woman who thinks she is going to meet a “nice guy” or a “marrying kind” of guy in an average bar or nightclub was either not properly educated by her parents…..or is completely delusional.
Even befriending a man in a bar is dangerous especially these days. If he’s there and obviously “looking to date” and not just hanging out with buddies, then he’s a kind of man who hopes to catch a drunk girl off guard and have sex with her. I don’t believe that ANY reputable man “looks to find love” in a bar. Sex? Definitely. Love? Ummmm how about NEVER.
That’s why I don’t understand the seeming “anger” from men about how women are so rude when they approach them in bars and nightclubs. Of COURSE they are going to be rude and not want to talk to you….you are trying to pick her up in a BAR!!! These men act like women should assume they are shining pillars of respect and have wonderful qualities….but if you’re a guy in a bar, then nearly ALL women have been warned to stay away from you for a very good reason. I don’t know why there are men who seem to get INDIGNANT when they are rejected.
The women in bars who are rejecting you are NICE GIRLS who know what you are there for. Why should it make them angry and indignant? If you don’t want to come off as a sleaze and a sex-fiend, then don’t try to “pick up women” in a bar….I mean come on….no one should have to tell you that.
Also, just to point it out, game isn’t just used for one-night stands and casual sex.
LR EDIT: Yes, I know that and to me that is even WORSE. In a long term relationship you should be presenting yourself as EXACTLY who and what you are. If you are doing otherwise, then you are a liar. This is what I mean. Who tolerates this sort of thing???
The very THOUGHT of a man trying to game his wife makes my stomach turn. A person’s husband or wife is to be esteemed, respected, adored, and treated with unyielding honesty and trust. Anything less means you should not be together or should be seeking couple’s therapy.
Did I fall asleep for 10,000 years and wake up and this kinda bs became acceptable and no one told me?
I have to say that I’m really surprised that some women in this world seem to think this behavior is acceptable or even NORMAL on the part of men.
I cannot imagine a man lying to me about his age, embellishing his life, his job, his love interests, being manipulative, trying to get laid as soon as possible….etc.
I have NEVER dated a man who acted this way and I cannot even recall the last time I’ve MET a man who acts this way. I’d have no association with him as a friend, an acquaintance, or anything else. These men SHOULD be shamed, avoided, ridiculed, and DEFINITELY deserve the “brother of girl you did that shit to beating you ass”.
Are there really women out there who would tolerate this behavior or even CONSIDER dating a man (or even sleeping with one for one night) after finding ANY of those things out about him?
I demand total and full honesty and respect because that is what I give in return. I have the right to demand those things and I think it’s obvious that NO woman/man should tolerate any sort of game playing or trickiness. Even if I were with a man for….say a year…..and I found out that he maybe lied about his age and embellished on his job when we were first dating….I’d dump him promptly no matter WHAT my feelings were for him, never speak to him again, and act as if he never existed in the first place.
He’d be deserving of no less than exactly THAT.
I know now that I was REALLY lucky in being raised in a household where my parents never even ONCE raised their voices to each other, never ONCE “talked about the other” behind their back, or made up “white lies”. In my household that was considered something that only lower-class people would do. I agree with that.
The first time after moving out of my parents house that a man I dated actually raised his voice to me I was SO shocked and SO horrified that this behavior even EXISTS, that I thought he must be some sort of serial killer to behave in this manner. Of course as I grew older I realized that there really ARE otherwise “normal” people/couples who behave this way, but never once did I consider this “normal” or acceptable in ANY way, still don’t, and cannot imagine a person who has respect for themselves tolerating it from a partner. There are PLENTY of men/women who would never consider disrespecting or lying to you and I just don’t see why anyone wouldn’t just date THOSE people instead.
It would be like intentionally picking the half-rotten wormy apples off the ground instead of the shiny, healthy red ones off the tree. Why? When there is the option of having a person who deserves you??
I truly do not even understand having a loud verbal altercation with a partner because to me “yelling” and fighting is something that only children and lesser sorts of people do and I would never associate myself with someone who does that.
Since I have never had a man act “shocked” at this belief of mine, I have to assume that most people who were raised properly and understand that couples/spouses are supposed to love and respect each other without question. I am QUITE grateful that apparently I have mostly only dated/befriended people who have these same (what I’d consider OBVIOUS) beliefs about adult relationships.
LR, when did game teach men to lie about their age, job, and or intimidate women? Stop with this bs, please. What Roissy teaches is not taught in any of “credible” PU material. I am glad you busted Roissy, I hated some of his stuff.
LR EDIT: Yes they do. Look at Mystery! Or Style! They don’t even go by their REAL NAMES. They have false personas. They wear silly clothes that they would NOT otherwise wear. They tell men to make up interesting shit and embellish on their “world travels” and things like that. How is that “being yourself but just being interesting”. It’s not.
Even Savoy in his material teaches to appear more worldly, interesting, educated, etc….than you are. What is going to happen when that woman wakes up next to guy who is NOT that worldly, who did NOT travel that much, who does NOT normally wear silly hats and eyeliner, who does NOT have a great education??? Or he suddenly seems to be much LESS outgoing and confident than he originally had her believe? She’s going to deem him a liar and assume he misrepresented himself and she would be correct.
LR, Game does want men to be honest in their intentions and be men. Not be pussies who try to get sex by being nice. Jesus.
LR EDIT: I truly don’t understand that statement. If men are embellishing details about their lives, appearing more “confident” and “outgoing” then they are, making themselves seem wealthier or more educated….whatever the case….that’s called “lying” by definition.
I don’t understand what world some of you people live in where “Lying” is synonymous with “Not looking like a pussy”.
I have had plenty of honest men seem to “attract me” without groveling on the floor for my attentions and without being my doormat. What does “being a pussy” have to do with “being honorable”???
Ms. Denise Romano said:
“desi fpua – i disagree.
gamers do not say “hi, i’m just looking for sex”.
they are taught to use every method they can to create a false sense of comfort that is not real through the use of deception, manipulation, outright lyng, and psychological coercion to make a woman feel that they are genuinely interested in her even if they are not.
I think we can assume that in any given nightspot there is a variation of women and men who are looking for nothing, just a fun night out with friends, hoping to meet someone with whom to have a meaningful relationship, hoping to meet Mr. or Ms. Right, or hoping for casual sex or a one-night stand.
Game teaches men to intentionally make women feel safe and comfortabl with them and teaches them to feign interest in who a woman is with the sole purpose of being sexual with her regardless of what is true for him or what her actual feelings, needs, and desires are.
This is a serious problem.”
Only for people (like Ms. Romano) who either never read, or hasnt refresehed their memory, about the part in The Game, written by Neil Style Strauss, about MANAGING EXPECTATIONS. It’s explicitly stated that a Man should be upfront BEFORE ANYTHING JUMPS OFF sexually, exactly just what she can expect from him and their relationship, whatever that may be. Now, I was doing that years before I ever heard anything about Gamme, but I was glad when I saw that, because it was in line with how I’ve always done business.
Again, Ms. Romano – prove it?
The Obsidian
Raine, I see you are using Roissy as the benchmark for PUAs and just becasuse he lied about his background, you think all other PUAs do too.
LR EDIT: What? No, I’m not even thinking of Roissy on that one (his lying about his age is the LEAST of his problems, lol). I was giving examples of things that I’m aware that both men and women do when they are still “courting” to capture the other’s attention more, but I don’t understand why those SAME people act bitter and indignant when a year down the road, their partner finds out and promptly dumps their ass.
Are there really women out there who would tolerate this behavior or even CONSIDER dating a man (or even sleeping with one for one night) after finding ANY of those things out about him?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
YES!!!
And I know some of those women that do!
LR EDIT: I believe that, but I still cannot imagine what woman would excuse that behavior in a man. If he lies….he’s a liar. I mean isn’t that fucking obvious to these women???
Raine, another incident from The Game where a few women at a club thought Style was Moby and invited him back to their hotel room and he didn’t end up going.
LR EDIT: Well obviously there are whores in this world, we all know that, lol….I don’t think any man needs help getting laid by an actual skank. I have no idea what Mystery really DOES and does NOT believe….and I’m sure even he doesn’t believe 90% of the bullshit he’s selling, but since he’s making money off whatever people believe about him….I doubt he’s going to correct anyone on those beliefs.
Kam–
You cannot deny that Game most CERTAINLY tells men they should AVOID the “friend zone”. They should NOT try to establish a REAL and HONEST friendship with a woman before entering into a relationship with her.
That is the OPPOSITE of healthy behavior and would NEVER lead to an honest and healthy relationship.
A woman should EXPECT a man to be her friend FIRST. A man who is NOT willing to put in the work, time, honesty, and good communication skills with a woman is a man who does NOT respect her who does NOT care about her and does NOT want to even be bothered by proving that he deserves her (future love and devotion) and especially not the enjoyment of her body and the sharing of her mind/feelings.
They teach men to NOT establish this friendship because it detracts from getting to the sex….detracts from instantaneous attraction. Base attraction and sexual attraction are NOT the foundation of a trusting, loving, and genuine relationship.
That is a sure fire way to guarantee continuous heartbreak and loneliness. No “quality” man or woman should expect any less than a REAL friendship that they WORKED for before “giving their heart” to someone.
You will never….EVER find ANY Professional in Relationships, Counseling, Couples Therapy, or even Psychology that would tell you to NOT establish a real friendship FIRST. There is a good reason for that. It’s NECESSARY.
You tell that to the five woman who gave me the classic “Let’s just be friends speech”.
LR EDIT: Ohhhh that is different. Those are women who are being dishonest either because they don’t want to hurt your feelings….or because they are too selfish to even suck it up and be honest with you.
Women**
But LR if that is different then what you said is different too. Because of pick up, I am genuine and honest with women. Before I sleep with a woman, I let he know what exactly I am looking for. If I saw it as something casual, I did let her know. Make no mistake I did lose a few women over this, as they wanted something more serious and that’s okay. Even if you start dating, “giving your heart” doesn’t come until later. If you “give your heart” to someone right away, o boy you are in for a lot of heartbreak. And let’s face it, both men and women will sleep with someone long before they “give their heart”.
Obsidian, let’s give Denise and Lady Raine all the time they need to respond to us. Let’s be patient.
But until they write up a comprehensive description of game and what is wrong with all of it, I wish they would hold off on the generalizations about what pickup and seduction are.
I’m sure even the readers hear who agree with Lady Raine and Denise are wondering what PUAs are doing that is so coercive, manipulative, abusive, or otherwise evil. Let’s talk about specific techniques. Let’s talk about specific quotes. And let’s see a lot of them, from many PUAs who are actually major figures in the seduction community (i.e. Roissy doesn’t count).
If Lady Raine or Denise want to say “The pickup techniques I’ve been exposed to so far seem abusive,” then fine (though next, I want to know what they have been exposed to, and what they think is wrong with it). If they want to say “Technique X is abusive,” then fine (though again, I’ll want to hear what is wrong with it). But saying that pickup and seduction methods are “inherently abusive?” That’s a pretty tall order.
I would love to hear concrete arguments about exactly what is wrong with particular techniques and mindsets, illustrated with quotes and citations from major PUAs. For instance, a post critiquing 5-10 techniques or mindsets would be great to see, and it would spark a real discussion rather than a trading of generalizations.
And while we are on the subject of generalizations, what’s with all the generalizations from Lady Raine and Denise about women’s preferences? And judgmentalness towards women who don’t share them?
Lady Raine:
Denise:
and also:
Evidently:
PUAs generalizing about women’s preferences = bad
Lady Raine and Denise generalizing about women’s preferences = OK
And as far as I know, neither Lady Raine or Denise have seen any PUAs in action in real life, or talked to women who have encountered PUAs.
PUAs often commit the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic" when evaluating women’s preferences. I wrote a post on LessWrong a while ago critiquing the rationality of PUA views of women’s preferences. Denise and Lady Raine are making exactly the same mistakes while evaluating PUA behavior and women’s preferences, committing the Typical Mind Fallacy discussed in that post.
I’m very interested in a critical discussion of pickup techniques, since I think some are cool and others are problematic, and I’m itching to talk about both aspects. But I’d really like to see a lot more specifics, and less unsupported generalizations about what PUAs do and what women’s preferences are.
LR EDIT: Yeah, except that I said “Every woman AND MAN should expect a friendship first. This is a matter of respect and the key to a healthy relationship” Way to conveniently leave out the part about “men”.
Second, we do not answer Obsidian anymore because he is a dishonest blogger who we have caught lying and saying he’s about “positive Game” and then actually USED the phrase “winning” (control) when talking about his “positive game”.
I dare you to find even ONE WOMAN, Professional Psych, Professional Counselor, Therapist, or anything else to say that “friendship is NOT at the very core of a healthy relationship”. None would and none do. There is NO WAY that you can have a successful relationship if you cannot even be bothered to establish a respectful friendship and understaning of eachother FIRST. If you do not believe that, then you have never had a loving relationship of ANY KIND.
And the fact that PUA’s and even LoveSystems tells you that “being a friend first is BAD” tells anyone with sense that they not only have no clue about relationships…..but that they are telling men there is no reason to establish a respectful friendship….because hey….it’s all about the sex….who needs all that healthy communication and respect, huh?
And yes….any man who does NOT want to be bothered establishing real connection, real emotion, and real friendship before trying to fuck a woman who he THINKS he MIGHT want to date….is a dick and not a man any woman would consider for anything other than a one night stand. So if ANY PUA is following THAT advice he can rest assured he’ll only get one night stands or psychologically damaged women. Wow, that’s a big win, huh?
Lady Raine, you are talking about “relationships” and Hugh Ristik is talking about “game”.
Denise also thinks that grown adult women can be brainwashed into “having relationships” with game players.
But the whole point of game is NOT relationship. It’s soliciting the sexual attraction of a female for sex. Point blank.
The thing is that there are MANY adult women out there who are looking for no strings attached sex just as much or MORE SO than men.
This is what game is all about.
So yeah, for an actual “relationship”, friendship is needed. For bar/club hook ups, it’s not.
You and Denise have a hard time relating to all this because you do not go home with men that you have just men in bars for no strings attached sex.
But there are MANY women who do. Game was invented for them.
The thing I find funny about all this is that IT’S NOT THAT HARD TO GET THOSE WOMEN TO GO HOME WITH YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Message to Men:
They are going to go home with SOMEONE that night, all YOU have to do is make sure that it’s YOU. It can’t be that hard.
I feel need to step in here, LR. Love Systems does teach friend based game, i.e. social circle game. You will find comprehensive posts on their forums about how to gain attraction in social circles where you start off as “friends.”
I should have clarified with the friends thing more. I meant more so for cold approaches (for approaches you don’t know the girl). If you are cold approaching, she knows you are not there to be her friend, you are there to date her/have sex with her/ get to know her more or whatever her motive is.
Also, when I said five girls LJBF’ed me, I was talking more about the game structure. It meant, I went into comfort first and then tried to gain attraction that never works. Game model will tell you, attraction first and then comfort (this is of course for women who you do wanna date). This doesn’t translate into don’t be friends or lie to her or don’t be genuine. Sorry if I didn’t present my points clearly.
Desi, game can be and is used for relationships. That’s not true that it’s only used for sex.
Yeah I can see the “attraction” vs “comfort” thing. I became really comfortable with a guy and now we are really good friends. At one point in the beginning I had a subtle attraction to him. It wasn’t overt. I wasn’t going to make a move. But if he had, I may have reciprocated. At least I would have felt “flattered” and not “weirded out”. But now that we are “comfortable” with each and he has shown me his “inner child” and I’ve become almost like a “mother figure” to him, whenever I remember how I almost had a “crush” on him, I’m like “ew gross”.
LadyRaine:
About clubs:
I suppose I should believe you or my own lying eyes.
I think I’ll take my boots on the ground approach.
By the way it wouldl be nice if you could tell me why, if women just soooooooo don’t want the attention of men at these venues they dress all sexy and tart themselves up and can often be seen dancing with so many guys? Ahah! I know! There is not enough cloth made to cover the poor things exposed breasts and thighs and necks. They dance with the men.. because they are scared! The smiles are all fake, and it’s because of brainwashing, I tell you, brainwashing, that so many of these ladies drink themselves into stupors or go home with strange men at the end of the night. Obviously the men all lied and told them they would be tucked into bed safely and soundly and that a gentleman wouldn’t even think of kissing them let alone sleeping with them. As for why they are at the clubs late at night in the first place? I suppose it’s because there are not enough resturants around where they can have a nice peaceful gals brunch or dinner at without being hit on by all those disgusting men.
Not at clubs to pickup or be picked up by men? That has to be the most dishonest or stupidest replies you’ve ever given me.
LadyRaine:
About comparative victimology:
I generally don’t engage in it, but I will say that my point was that I have a better chance of being physically assaulted than you do and a greater chance of being killed in a violent manner. I really don’t know why the fact that men have to worry more about physical assualt and women more about sexual assault (prison excepted) was too hard for you to grasp. I suppose it was because you have one million replies on all these threads and you often can’t separate the arguments apart.
“There is not enough cloth made to cover the poor things exposed breasts and thighs and necks.”
Necks too, Clarence? For shame!
Yes, desi, for shame!
I forgot about their exposed panties or bottom cracks! Sorry.
Clarence, you must be Desi yourself. Or ME (middle eastern) perhaps if you are “for shaming” over “exposed necks”.
LOL
Now clarence I NEVER said “NO girls go to clubs to pick up men”. Your comment was really unfair.
I said that no girl with sense goes to a bar and thinks she is meeting a guy she could “date seriously” or “have a relationship with”. Of course their are skanks I never said there were not.
However I went to clubs a lot in my late teens and my friends and I were not there for the men. Most of us had bfs and wanted a night out.
And your comment about womens outfits was ridiculous. You do realize that at least 75 percent of the reason women dress up, do make up, hair etc is to IMPRESS OTHER WOMEN and to make those other women jealous of them, right?
Second nearly all attractive girls know that a prett girl gets treated better by men, women, children, bosses, friends, peers, the cable man, the grocer, the Judge, the garbageman, even doctors.
The same is true for attractive men. They also get better treatment by other men, women, children, bosses, their “boys”, etc.
I think we all know we live in a shallow world where your looks can get you further than the ugly chick next to u.
This is what I mean when its no wonder men thinks women “are asking to be hit on and then act rude and cunty when approached”.
You don’t seem to realize that about 25% of a woman’s appearance is to attract men.
Most is to present yourself attractively. No woman wants to be ugly and discarded as such if she can avoid it.
That’s human behavior to want to be well-received by peers and an attractive appearance helps in every facet of life.
Your are really putting words in my mouth.
All I said is that “men assume women go to clubs to get laid and then are pissed and indignant when they are rejected” for something that THEY made an assumption about.
I also said that no man (or woman for that matter) should expect to be considered “relationship or dating material” if they are trolling bars.
I don’t think that is an unfair or dishonest statement at all.
LR, I find it kinda weird that you say no girl will go to a club looking for a guy she could seriously date. Obviously, you don’t “go looking.” But keep in mind most PUAs don’t even go for one-night stands. They take numbers do they can get Day2s with these women.
PUAs do NOT want to be seen as “relationship materal”. I’m just listening to the free 10 minutes of this;
http://www.lovesystems.com/audio/vol-33-logistics-taking-her-home-soul-johnny-wolf
…..wherein it is made clear that they wanna be seen as “fuckable material” NOT “relationship material”.
Furthermore, clarence if only “women who were looking to fuck” dressed sexy or nice, wore make up, hells, did their hair…etc. Then every single woman who is married or has a boyfriend would go around in sweatpants, no make up, hairy legs, and a rats nest of hair on her head.
Your belief that women do those things for MEN is just silly.
Even when I am just taking my son to the bus stop, my make up is done, my hair is brushed and neat, my outfit is tasteful and attractive, my shoes are matching, and my jewelry is on.
And there aren’t even any other parents or students at his bus stop, so am I doing that do “hook a man”? No of course not.
Do I wear a cute summer dress and heels to a picnic to “whore it up”? No I do it because I care about my appearance and want to be stylish and attractive for myself.
Your beliefs seem to be all about “all women are looking to fuck if they’re friendly, sexy looking, or attractive and in public”
I hate to break it to you, but that is not the case. Women like to make other women look bad and make them jealous and most women use their looks to do that.
Kaam/Cupid
I made a comment to you here;
http://ladyraine.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/exposed-roissy-in-dc/#comment-2282
But it got lost in all the shaming of exposed necks. LOL.
Clarence and others:
I think there are alot of misconceptions about what many men seem to think are “green lights” that are in fact NOT necessarily green lights.
To use a metaphor for this, I used to have an ongoing argument with a former boyfriend about my nipples. My nipples are always protruding; it’s just the way they are. I could be on a beach in Mexico when it’s 90 degreees, and my nipples will protrude.
He used to get very protective of me and be very concerned that men were looking at my nipples and interpreting this as a sign that I was aroused. He went so far as wanting me to buy new bras with thick padding to cover up my nipples.
I told him that people need to learn that some nipples protrude and some don’t and these misconceptions about what signals arousal need to stop. People need to be educated out of their ignorance, and they need to get over my and others’ nipples.
And, I shouldn’t have to buy all new bras because people are ignorant about normal nipple anatomy and misinterpret something that means absolutely nothing.
So, to use that as a metaphor, many women enjoy dressing up. I know I do when I go out. I love dresses, shoes, hats, purses, elegant jewlery, etc. When I go dancing, I usually go swing dancing for a number of reasons – I love the music of the 30s and 40s, I love the dancing, and I love that it’s NOT a meat market. There is a politeness that is a part of the whole swingdance culture that is really wonderful.
That doesn’t mean people don’t meet and date or even just hook up there, but there is a non-sleaze factor as part of the environment.
So, just because a woman dresses up in an outfit that is considered by men to be sexy, doesn’t mean it’s a signal that they want casual sex.
Alot of fashion, which many women including myself, really enjoy, is most certainly provacative. If you look at my blogroll you’ll see the website for one of my favorite designers, Selma Karaca, who is also one of my best friends. Her dresses are very flattering to women’s figures and some of them are quite sexy.
But, having been in her loft studio in Brooklyn and having been to her shows and having worn several of her gorgeous dresses, while some of them are quite sexy, it’s more about a woman enjoying her own body and fashion and feeling elegant and dressed up and it’s not about inviting men to hit on you. At least that’s not what it’s about for me or women I know.
I can’t speak to the makeup thing, because I don’t wear makeup and neither do most of my friends. Makeup is very much an icky annoyance for most women I know in NYC – but not all. I do have friends who enjoy makeup, but on a very minimal scale.
I personally only use sunscreen and chaptsick.
And, I guess in nyc the only women I see dressed like hookers are actual hookers, which is a completely different story.
I don’t know if that helps with understanding or not, but I wanted to reply to Clarence’s comment.
I enjoy dressing up when I go out for certain things and it’s for my own enjoyment.
Denise
Clarence,
I haven’t looked at those stats in awhile, but the last time I did, I do recall seeing what you’ve just said about men and physical assault and women and sexual assault (prison excepted).
d
Desi, that’s one type of game. The point of game is to make it work for you. Whether you wanna take her home, want a gf, want a fuckbuddy, or a wife. The particular interview you are listening to is called “logistics.” Yes, the logistics of taking her home. That’s only one type of game.
“PUAs do NOT want to be seen as “relationship materal”. I’m just listening to the free 10 minutes of this;
http://www.lovesystems.com/audio/vol-33-logistics-taking-her-home-soul-johnny-wolf
…..wherein it is made clear that they wanna be seen as “fuckable material” NOT “relationship material”.”
THIS is why I have a problem with Game.
I’ve been going through the Mystery Method again to prepare my reply to Obsidian and there are MANY instances where men are advised to be deceptive in order to get sex.
I will provide page numbers and direct quotes to you. And, when I’m done with that book, I’ve got at least 6 more PUA books and several PUA e-newsletters including LoveSystems, all of which teach and advise men on how to use deception, manipulation, psychological coercion, and various other unethical tequniques in order to get laid regardless of what the woman wants and regardless of honesty.
I will again provide direct quotes and page numbers.
Frankly, there is an example of what I’m describing on nearly every page of the Mystery Method. It’s reprehensible.
And, I’ve also begun a discussion about this on LinkedIn with NLP professionals, and I’m getting a great deal of feedback from them that indeed using NLP or covert hypnosis on people with the goal of getting laid is unethical and should never be done.
It is possible to hypnotize someone without them realizing or remembering it.
This is disturbing, and any human being is vulnerable to it. There is an obnoxious post on the spearhead saying that if women are so influential, then they shouldn’t hold professional positions – or something like that.
That is not the point. This can happen to men also, and it’s unethical regardless of who these techniques are used on without informed consent.
I”m not saying all PUAs do this; but even in the mystery method which does not advocate those things, he is still teaching and encouraging deception, outright lying, manipulation, and psychological coercion.
There was another very disturbing post on the spearhead from a man who said that “arousal is equal to consent”.
THIS IS NOT TRUE!!!!
A woman’s body may be aroused, but her mind may tell her, “this guy is not someone I want to sleep with”. and she needs to be free to make her own decision regarding her choices without any undue influence from anyone else.
Just because a woman – or anyone – is aroused, does not mean consent has been given.
This statement was as shocking for me to read as the comments from men the other day who had no idea how STDs (particularly HIV) can be transmitted via unprotected sex in all of its many forms.
Lady Raine said:
Very well, then instead of generalizing about how women should conduct relationships, you are generalizing about how both women and men should conduct their relationships. You are still generalizing from your preferences. Not everyone conceptualizes their ideal relationship progression as being “friends first.”
Ah, but now you are talking about a relationship that is already started. That’s an entirely different question from what role friendship plays in the relationship getting started.
I doubt that you would find it the consensus of women, professional psychologists, counselors, or therapists that the “key” to a healthy relationship is friends first.
Though, really it depends on what we mean by “friends first.” If starting a friendship means establishing a connection, then PUA techniques typically do establish a friendship first.
But when PUAs are saying that ending up in the “Let’s Just Be Friends” (LJBF) zone is bad, they are not saying that establishing a connection or understand of each other is bad (in fact, they argue in favor of those things). PUAs conceptualize the LJBF as when a woman views a man purely in a platonic fashion, and not as a potential sexual partner. So what PUAs are really saying is that engaging in purely platonic interaction without any attraction or sexual tension is bad for developing any kind of sexual or romantic interaction.
Friendship is at the core of successful relationships—but so is chemistry. Both pillars are necessary to uphold a romantic relationship, and PUAs are merely saying that both pillars need to be present from the start.
Desi said:
Desi, thanks for this story. This kind of situation—where the woman was interested in going beyond the platonic, but the guy failed to take it there—is exactly the kind of “friends zone” that PUAs are trying to avoid.
Hugh I am not stating my opinion. I am stating what anyone who’s had a successful relationship knows and also what counselors and Pros teach!
Second, chemistry of course is important, but a woman who has anything other than a “false infauation” with you (most people are guilty of that during the “honeymoon period”) is NOT going to suddenly be totally unattracted to you when she gets to know you and establishes that friendship.
If she DID lose interest that quickly or easily its probably because she didn’t have more than a “passing fancy” for you in the first place.
Surface and short term “attraction” is easy. Its also meaningless. REAL attraction that gets stronger and deeper does not happen until your have formed a friendship and equal respect, admiration, trust, etc in the other person.
Sure if all you want is that initial spark then a friendship isn’t necessary, but everyone on earth knows that the initial spark cannot be fueled into fire if there is nothing real and no friendship or bond at the core.
I don’t believe that sexual attraction alone has EVER led to a meaningful, loving, and healthy relationship and NO I still say that no professional on marriages or relationships would deny that fact.
Chemistry and sexual attraction/infatuation are important of course…..but are not and never have been what keeps a relationship strong and healthy if the friendship and mutual “mental” bond are not present.
Desi, thanks for this story. This kind of situation—where the woman was interested in going beyond the platonic, but the guy failed to take it there—is exactly the kind of “friends zone” that PUAs are trying to avoid.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
Yep, however, I’m really glad he didn’t take it there because if he had, it would have ended. But our friendship will not end. We’ve become really bonded and he is now one of the best friends I’ve ever made. I’d say at this point in time, he is indeed my best friend.
For a while I was jealous whenever I thought he was “attracted” to someone, but now I’m over it. I realized how ridiculous it is to be jealous over a guy that is not my boyfriend/lover.
Funny though, even when I was getting jealous, I felt sick if I ever tried to think of him in a sexual way. A big turn off. But then why was I jealous?
@Denise:
You are one sick puppy that seeks to criminalize thoughts and feelings (only of men) and support laws that damage children.
No wonder men are avoiding marriage and commitment like the plague in this country.
Again – women like you have created the Roissys of the world. They are an entirely appropriate response to the feminised thought police that plague the family courts and are visited in the media again and again when they make false accusations and molest children without any punishment.
You’re contributing to this, Ms. Romano. You exemplify the reason Roissy and the PUA community are so popular.
Thank God for the PUA community – they are our liberators from the bigoted feminist society we live in in America!
Hugh Ristik,
What are the specific unethical techniques in “game” that you mention here?
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/12/25/merry-christmas/#comment-152233
Hugh,
Can you send me some links to PUA groups or schools that do not focus on men getting laid as their primary goal other than PUA4LTR?
I have yet to see any PUA materials that do not use deceptive methods and not focus on getting laid.
“Friendship is at the core of successful relationships—but so is chemistry. Both pillars are necessary to uphold a romantic relationship, and PUAs are merely saying that both pillars need to be present from the start.”
I agree with what you’ve said above. My argument is that all of the PUA methods and techniques I’ve seen described in books, on videos, in newsletters, etc focusing on creating FALSE comfort and FALSE attraction bc men are being instructed to lie and say anything to make her feel attracted and comfortable whether it’s true or not.
So, if these men are being instructed to lie, deceive, create false attraction and create false comfort, none of it is real.
so if she does feel attraction, it is not genuine and she is being deceived into feeling attracted to a man who is lying to her and performing for her – she is not attracted to him but to a persona he is falsely putting forth, therefore the entire exchange is a lie.
The same is true of the comfort that is created as per the advice given – it is false comfort, not genuine comfort, and it is therefore manipulative and deceptive.
i will provide concrete examples of this with page numbers from various PUA sources when I get to that.
I’m about halfway done with my NVC/EI response to you and Clarence and depending on how busy tmrw is, I’ll post it either tmrw or Tuesday.
Thanks for your patience.
Denise
Tokien he’s being treated like a criminal bc he IS one.
Yes she’s so evil to not want children posted on an x rated site. Yeah that’s something that only a feminist would be upset about.
Roissy has only allowed sick and demented criminals to feel like they are justified or “normal” when in truth any man who thinks hitting women is okay, being a deadbeat is something to take pride in, having unprotected sex is MANLY, and abusing and sexually assaulting women is EVER acceptable is someone who should be removed from the streets, castrated, and thrown in a cell for life.
I really do wish that he’d get some nice AIDS from all his “rawdogging” and have the fathers of one of those innocent little girls he posts on his site of sexual deviants and rapists finds him, puts a gun to his head and make him beg for his life.
Now THAT is what he deserves for his actions.
I plan to find out who all those photos are stolen from and notify the parents of what they were used for, where they were posted, and where to find good old Jimmy to “have a little talk with him”
I think chemical castration and lethal injection is too good for a man like him.
Sorry but no person with sense doesn’t know that u can’t post kid pics on an X-rated site. The FBI’s Law on Children very much agree.
I will find out each and every one of those parents of the little girls he posts and see what their dads have to say. Somehow I doubt they’ll think it was any more “tongue in cheek” than we do.
Ill be smiling and awaiting his execution whether by the dads or by the law.
That’s why I’m glad his magically disappearing kiddie porn posts are safely tucked away in my bookmarks so I can send the original and its comment to those parents and the parent of the women who he encourages and celebrates the abuse of.
I’m sure they will also agree.
I hope they hunt him down and destroy him and any other misogynistic woman abuser like him.
You make any REAL men’s rights issues (which is a joke bc men have any and all rights and priviliges and STILL can’t compete or be successful) look even more stupid and obvious as to what it is “waaah we aren’t given everything without earning it anymore so now we are the ones who are oppressed”
Well once its been about 1,000 years…..or since the beginning of civilization even……like it was for women….then maybe we will start to feel badly for them.
Why can’t they suck it up and quit crying like women did for so long.
Guess the shoe is pretty tight on the other foot. They reaped what they have sowed and MRA’s are just Misogynists with more shit to cry about.
And don’t forget the pic of the family on his Merry Christmas blog, the last one up on his site. That’s a small infant in that photo!
The best fantasy I have is one following my own religion:
The Dark God Anubis drags him into the underworld, drags him by his entrails, and then buries him alive to be eaten by scarabs much like the Ancients did to the foulest of Criminals and traitors.
Ahhhh a girl can dream, can’t she?
Yes and clearly an infant and his parents and their family portrait is approprate on his x rated site.
Notice the comments about the baby’s “dick size” and “package”?
Yes what an innocent man we are persecuting. I mean u know how innocent men immediately scramble to remove the posts that have kids and encouragment of beating women.
I mean what does a “tongue in cheek” blogger have to worry about in his innocence right?
Sorta like innocent criminals hide the gun, burn the evidence, and run to a foreign country are clearly being wrongfully accused!!!!
What witch hunters we are!
Women are amoral in this country, aren’t they.
WOW, a woman (women) scorned…too funny!
What a bunch of whiny losers.
Tolkin,
I do not seek to criminalize thoughts.
Kindly explain how women have “created the Roissys of the world.”
Do you think he’s doing something good? If so, tell us what it is. Are you accusing us of having created something bad or are you giving us credit for having created something good? I’m not sure what you’re saying.
Kindly send us some concrete credible sources about the problems you see in the family courts so we can understand your perspective.
You seem to be saying that the hatred and violence of women that roissy espouses and advocates is an appropriate response because you and others are upset about family court laws, the media, false accusations, and child molestations.
Does that mean that you also believe that revenge feminists are also justified in doing what they’re doing for the very same reasons?
Don’t you think it’s time to find some common ground on these issues and learn what men and women can accomplish together if we begin respecting each other more and addressing these systems that need reform and issues of violence together rather than fighting each other?
Aren’t the problems of violence, imbalanced systems (some of which unfairly benefit women and some of which unfairly benefit men), and issues of abuse the things we want to fight – instead of fighting each other?
I do think there is a great deal of agreement here even if we come from different perspectives, have had different experiences, and even disagree on some things.
“You’re contributing to this, Ms. Romano. You exemplify the reason Roissy and the PUA community are so popular.”
I don’t understand your statement above at all. Please explain.
I’d like to ask you since you think feminist society is bigoted, what would an ideal, non-bigoted society look like to you?
Was there ever a time when our society was not bigoted toward men or women? If so, when was that?
Thanks
Denise
Someone proposed a class action suit against you here;
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/12/25/merry-christmas/#comment-152229
“F it. We need to prepare a class-action suit against LR and her employer (you know she wrote most of her stuff at work, and spent most of her time harassing Roissy at work).?”
………….. and yeah, what type of sicko makes comments like that about a baby?
He must’ve had members of NAMBLA posting on his blog.
Yes, its really hard for us Ladies to keep up with pillars of morality like Roissy and of course ALL men because everyone knows how morally superior men are as a gender.
Roissy is just like a Desi actually. They can dish it out, but they can’t take it.
Yeah, will you caught me.
All those times I professed my love to Roissy and dreamed of his aging, flaccid penis and sparkling conversations that I can now never have finally drove me to the breaking point.
I mean, what woman DOESN’T want a pasty, skinny, 41 year old guy who still tries to rock skinny jeans and beats women?
Sometimes we just have to take second best…..you know…..like snakes, lizards, and amoeba.
LR – I think it’s interesting that Will Fokker, Tolkin, gig and others are cyber-negging us.
So, in addition to having nothing substantive to add to the conversation, they know we’d never be attracted to them so they hope to bring our self-esteem down a few pegs with their speculative insults.
So, please, LR, do me a favor, since I’m allergic to cats, can you please ask your non-existent thug bf to take my non-existent cat over to roissy’s blog so they can keep him company?
Afterall, roissy likes pussy and the thug can keep the kitty cat safe from whatever roissy might have in mind.
Lady Raine! Did you see this?!?!
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/12/25/merry-christmas/#comment-152223
Dude thinks if you get Roissy fired that he will go on to pass laws in our government that will bite you in the ass!
Ha. Ha.
(one of the laws has to do with mail order brides. like how would that affect YOU either way?)
LR EDIT: Um, yeah….even Ted Kennedy wouldn’t sign his name on THAT trainwreck of a man. Do these guys honestly think that Roissy is in some sort of position of power or influence??? LMAO. Many of them have talked about how “DC has liberal laws on Free Speech”. Um, problem is that the FBI sort of over rides them and they DO NOT.
I know it was hilarious! For two reasons:
They actually are trying to figure out “who LR is” and evidently found some person who works in my related field and they listed the company and they’re all thinking they “found me”.
I have to assume that the Wendy who works at that company is going to be one very confused lady, lmao……and her employers too!
Second, my Supervisor and Bosses read here and have also commented!!!!
Lol…..yup they sure are fixing my little red wagon, eh?
My bosses don’t give a fuick what I post because they are well aware that as long as my Programming is done and correct that I am allowed to dick around as much as I want.
After all, I DO the proigramming in my bosses sky office right in front of them. We spin around inthe chairs like kids and read and talk about my blog, lol.
They’re gonna hit brick walls no matter which way they try to smite me.
That’s why I have no need for anonymity. There is nothing they could find about me that everyone who knows isn’t already aware of.
I encourage them to dig til their little hearts are content. It won’t matter one bit.
I don’t even have a good residential address on file, lol.
Just….ohhhh…..about 4 separate addresses all in the same town. None of which are good.
That’s necessary for my “side work” and it will remain protected without question
“Yes, its really hard for us Ladies to keep up with pillars of morality like Roissy and of course ALL men because everyone knows how morally superior men are as a gender.”
I don’t know, LR…it’s pretty clear you win the prize for Most Sexist Asshole.
Roissy is a distant second.
Lady Raine said:
You said:
That is your opinion. There’s no reason to believe that most people or relationship professionals conceptualize “friends first” as the only way to go about relationships.
Some partners might think of themselves as “friends first” before they started dating. Other partners might meet, and then connect with each other while dating, and not think of it as “friends first.”
But I’m not talking about sexual attraction “alone.” I said very clearly said that both sexual and platonic attraction are necessary for a relationship.
Both, not just one. Imagine three initial situations between a man and a woman, and I will say what the PUA community advises:
1. Woman is platonically attracted to the man, but not sexually attracted to him:
Stop trying to sleep with her, it will never work. Be friends with her if you want, or move on if you have a crush on her that is too painful.
2. Women is platonically attracted to the man, and sure she is attracted to him:
Great. Try to avoid messing up and killing her attraction, which would put you in situation #1.
3. Women is platonically attracted to the man, and not sure if she is attracted to him, or her attraction is ambiguous, or she isn’t sure if she wants to act on it:
Try to send things in the direction of attracting her, rather than losing attraction and getting stuck in situation #1 (which is what happened to the guy in Desi’s anecdote). Try to create a context where she wants to act on her attraction.
I don’t think this program is particularly outlandish.
Hugh,
for me the devil in is the details. if the methods used are those in mystery’s book, I have a problem with them.
If they’re not deceptive or manipulative, I have no problem with them.
d
The fact that you made a blanket and idiotic sexist remark yourself simply warrants a sarcastic answer.
See in order to be a sexist I’d have to think women were superior to men. I do not.
But I do think I’m superior to dumb asses who make dumb ass comments and then think they are going to get a serious answer.
Hey thanks for the Assholery Award, I almost won last year, but got beat out by a couple of votes.
Nice to see the fruits of my labors paying off
Platonic Attraction is basically the same thing as friendship but to lesser degree (by your description) so how is that so far off base from what I said?
All I am saying that a relationship built on sex and infatuation is (yup I’m gonna use this one again, guys) a house built upon the sand.
And also, there are many many toimes when I met a guy, maybe went on a couple of dates, and had NO attraction to him.
But then later got to know him better and establised friendship and communication and I did a 180 and wanted to get sexy with him all day.
I hardly think that I am in the minority on that.
Desi said:
Briefly, some types of negs, cocky behavior, LMR (Last Minute Resistance) tactics, and probably a few other things.
The difficulty with sexual ethics is that just about any way of making a sexual advance has a risk, even a miniscule risk, of causing some form of discomfort, offense, or harm. Yet they can be justified if there is a good reason to believe that they will lead to a positive result and be well-received. All sexual advances have a balance of a chance of a positive result, and a chance of a negative result for the person on the other end.
Some particular pickup techniques incorrectly assess the chances of positive or negative results, and are consenquentially unethical: the risk of harming the other person is too great relative to the chance that they will respond positively.
LR EDIT: Just the EXPRESSION “LMR” is offensive. “Last Minute Resistance”??? That’s a GOOD thing. That’s a woman’s SAFETY measure. That’s her way of exercising CAUTION. Any man who does ANY pushing to get past that IS looking at moving right on into attempted sexual assault.
I cannot imagine there’s a woman alive on earth who would even CONSIDER having sex with a man after he pushed her to do so….and if she did….it would still be “consent under duress” which of course the Courts do NOT consider “consent” for a very good reason.
Oh my god. I was just randomly browsing Roissy’s site and I found buried there this “edit” by him in a commenter’s post where he threatens to rape her!
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/repeal-the-imbra-now/#comment-138347
[editor: but if i took viagra i might be compelled to relieve my massive endless hard-on by raping you, over and over again, so vigorously that your uterus squibs out of your mouth.]
Save that one LR!
Try to send things in the direction of attracting her, rather than losing attraction and getting stuck in situation #1 (which is what happened to the guy in Desi’s anecdote). Try to create a context where she wants to act on her attraction.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Yeah but the thing is, I don’t know if he was attracted to me at all as more than a friend at any point in time.
What are male IOIs?
He never twirled his hair! lol
What Many NLP Experts Say about Using NLP in Game:
1. I got into NLP and hypnosis 25 years ago and one of my biggest complaints was the misuse of NLP by the business community to manipulate others into making a decision. You can even learn ‘spin doctoring’ at NLP trainings…. Hitler was a trained hypnotist (he shot his trainer) and then marketers modeled his techniques and taught them at university… politicians use NLP and hypnosis to manipulate…
Whether people are manipulated to vote for a politician, buy a car or sleep with someone – it sucks – but it seems to be a downside of human nature. Rather than try and restrict the use of NLP and hypnosis which is absurd don’t you think that it is better to educate people in how to use it? – and to create awareness through the practise of meditation?
2. Thanks for bringing this important subject to the attention of this forum.
I don’t have a problem with a person learning to communicate more effectively and thus get better results in their business and personal life.
Whether we use NLP, Assertiveness, or other communication skills to improve our abilities to share and give and receive in human relations, I consider this to be an excellent endeavour.
Many Pick Up Artists will say that they are simply helping the other person to respond in the way they would like to respond really, if only they weren’t inhibited. They sometimes tell you that I person will never do anything they don’t really want to do. They will say that a person will only agree to do what they actually want to do.
I happen to think that these are ‘political’ answers to genuine questions, i.e., half truths bent to fit the purpose of a person who wants to con another person to do something they wouldn’t otherwise choose to do – with them.
Some PUAs are attractive men and women who like to use their skills to hurry up the process of seduction with equally attractive men and women. This, to my mind, is the exception to the rule. Most PUAs have learned these skills because they at least believe they are not attractive and so they believe the only way they can get sex is to lie, con and cheat their way into someone’s temporary affections.
Some PUAs also feel the need to delude themselves into believing that the other person likes them really, because to actually come face to face with the truth of their dishonour would damage their already crumbling levels of low self esteem further. They would prefer to believe this lie, because it prevents them from the truth of their dishonest and dishonourable behaviour towards another human being (we are all somebody’s child).
Someone who uses powerfully influential techniques can quite easily temporarily confuse another person into thinking that their natural sexual desires should be directed towards this PUA, when actually, left to their own devices, they would never choose this PUA for sex, because they are not naturally attracted to them!
Imagine Gollom, from Lord of the Rings, conning a woman into feeling her very natural sexual feelings and then directing those feelings towards him. Does she fancy Gollom? No she doesn’t. She has been hypnotised into feeling her natural sexual feelings in relation to him.
This kind of ‘attraction’ is in my opinion the equivalent to a dodgy used car salesman. He may get that one ‘sale’, but he will never get repeat custom.
Except that Gollom may be very clever and may hypnotise her into a state of confusion each time in the future, too.
By the way, I am not saying that PUAs are ugly looking people, just that their attitudes and behaviour is ugly, that’s all. I believe they are not in the process of self healing, but self harming as they also harm others around them – I find the whole process ugly.
(Incidentally, if Gollom just changed some of his attitudes and put on some nice clothes and brushed his hair and teeth regularly, he might find himself a nice girlfriend!).
We have these skills. As with knives, it is all about how we choose to USE them.
3. I personally dislike the use of NLP and hypnosis techniques to misdirect genuine human beings into confused states in which they may agree to go along with things they would defintely enjoy – just not with Gollom!
4. What seems like a good life to me doesn’t necessarily fit for another person. For me, a committed and growing relationship is so very important to fulfillment in my life. I accept this is not the case for others always and I respect their need for other things in their lives.
However, my point is directed towards dishonesty, cheating, conning, covertly hypnotising other people to get what you want without bothering to be big enough to directly ask!
4. I feel compelled to comment. Re: “I personally dislike the use of NLP and hypnosis techniques to misdirect genuine human beings into confused states in which they may agree to go along with things they would defintely enjoy”
I aggree with most of what you say in your post but if you shift the context from sex to sales your statements would still fit perfectly. My sales training was about manipulating customers into a sale. It did not go down well with me so i left… yet some of the top NLP trainers teach NLP for sales in what could be described as a manipulative fashion… we help the prospect access memories where they saw something that they knew they had to buy… anchor it… then attach it to our product… then inoculate against the objections of friends and family… we are then taught to rationalise the process….
NLP for sex or sales? Is it the same process?
5. My corporation has taught NLP for sales for 28 years, and we do not teach manipulation nor recommend it. In fact, what we teach is that the increase in perception and in Right Brain strategies makes the use of manipulation stupid. You do not need to deceive or coerce the customer if you are 1. willing to find out their need while setting up rapport 2. present your product so that it fills this need 3. be sure this is win-win for both you and your customer. Why manipulate?
6. You can hypnotize people without their consent, if you are skillful. Hitler did this to large groups for years. They will “wake up” eventually, but in the meantime, much harm was done. Hypnosis is simply moving people’s central attention to their Right Brain computational abilities. This can be done overtly or covertly. One of the seductive qualities of hypnosis is that it is so much fun. It can also be quite dangerous. I do not recomend it unless you are very skillful and have the other person’s well-being in mind. I once jerked the certification of a Trainer because he insisted it was fine to hypnotize everyone he met with a hand shake. He could do it too. He did not always have their well-being in mind. To protect your own integrity, you need to be aware of the power of hynosis and use it with care.
Ahh LR:
Your argument against me falls apart when you forget that I was specifically talking about why girls who GO TO CLUBS AND BARS dress the way they do. Not why women in general do. And yes, wives tend to dress more conservatively on average than when they were single. Obviously this does not apply in all cases.
I also think you get the “dress for women vs dress for men” thing backwards. Most of the reasons women care about their appearance in the first place is to attract a man. Lesbians try to attract other women. Wearing slutty clothes isn’t the only thing girls in clubs do – they also wear makeup. Makeup is NOT meant for women, and this destroys your argument almost totally. I’m sorry, but most women aren’t 29 and happy being a single parent. More power to you, but you are by your own admission, in many ways an outlier.
LR EDIT: Clarence, I mean no offense….but your beliefs seem to be that of a 16 year old boy. You think women WEAR MAKE UP to attract MEN??? In case you hadn’t noticed….most women are either women who almost ALWAYS wear make up….or NEVER wear make up. I supposed the women do NOT wear make up are lesbians or are lifetime virgins?
No, of course not because your argument is ridiculous. This really does explain why men seem to think “If she looks nice, is well dressed, and cares at ALL about her appearance….she’s looking to fuck.”
I put make up on and do my hair even if I am not leaving the house that day. I suppose I’m doing that just in case a hot deliveryman comes to the door?
While there can be an argument about HOW SEXY a woman is dressed, there are also TONS of women who have always dressed sexy, even when they were virgins and had no intention of engaging in sexual activity.
Your whole argument makes NO SENSE. I realize that in many ways I AM an outlier, but it’s hardly “weird” for a 29 year old woman to care about her appearance and NOT be interested in marriage. What do I have to gain from marriage? Nothing. I have my son, I already have a family (many nieces and nephews who live with me)….have my own stable income, my own 5 bedroom home, my own things, my own credit, etc…..and more importantly I don’t have any shortage of attractive and successful men to “date” and see on a casual basis. What could I or a woman like me POSSIBLY have to gain from marriage? The risks FAR outweigh the benefits (especially taking the chance of marrying a man who is NOT a good example for my son to follow and also because I feel a husband would detract from my son and my very close relationship, too).
I really really doubt that I am SUCH an outlier. MOST modern women don’t want marriage or need it because we are no longer REQUIRED to “have a husband to have kids” or “have a husband to financially support us” or anything that used to push women to get married.
The truth is that the men who USED to be able to land a woman based on his wealth or status (because women NEEDED that security) are now angry that they have to compete harder and are failing at landing a woman on their character alone. So now they want to BLAME women and displace their own laziness in bettering themselves on women and of course an “evil feminist society”.
The sad part is that men should be HAPPY that women are more likely to be with them these days because they WANT to and not because they HAVE to. The men who are supposedly “suffering” because of that are the men who were used to getting women based on material things and now they are pissed that they have to actually improve their character and personality in order to get a woman to WANT to be with them.
That’s at the core of all of this. The confident, honorable men of character don’t seem to have any complaints and are having no problems at all still finding good women and good wives. Know why? Because those are the men who never NEEDED to lure a woman in with security, money, or status in the first place. Those men aren’t crying about the way things are because they are landing women the honest way and were and still ARE successful at it.
Desi:
I’m a white caucasian male. How many non-whites or non-blacks are named Clarence?
My neck comment was meant in the sense that often so much of the neck is exposed there’s a big bit of clevage at the bottom that reveals the top of the breasts. I certainly am no fan of burkha’s. Personally I like women in dresses and miniskirts, best.
Um Desi, LR:
About Biting Beaver:
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/BitingBeaver
That’s who Roissy threatened to “rape”.
You want to see a bad mother? Read the article.
Oh, and I can guarantee the basic accuracy of it. I was there when the BB thing first broke, about a year before 4chan got wind of the issue.
Hmm come to think of it, I think LR knows about biting beaver. If I recall see shared the Link of Shame spot with Roissy at one point.
LR EDIT: Yes, Clarence you are correct. I think I still DO have Biting Beaver listed in the “Worst Blogs Ever” Category of my blogroll, but since I changed my theme I’m not sure.
Yes I agree with you on her. It’s been a long time since I first read her stuff, but she is a bonafied nut, a liar, and someone who really DOES think that “All men are born Rapists”.
I can honestly let Roissy’s comment slide to her on that one because she literally says “Looking at a woman is Rape” or “Kissing a Woman is Rape”.
She also has an obsession with Stripping and Porn. She states that ALL strippers were abused as children (woops, I wasn’t BB), and also that every man who pay her to dance is abusing and raping her (which is absolutely ridiculous). She also goes on to say that every dancer she ever worked with (she says she used to be one) was assaulted and attacked by customers at SOME POINT. Another lie. I was NEVER attacked or assaulted and the club I worked for had men arrested for so much as touching a dancer’s arm because it was against policy. I had nothing but positive experiences in dancing and the fact that she WANTS to make women BORN VICTIMS makes me want to invite her to a good old street fight with me.
I’d imagine she gets this from the (accurate) belief that ALL MEN AND WOMEN are capable of unspeakable horror, unspeakable crimes, and sexual deviancy. This is true. But “capable” does not mean “is” and she seems to ONLY apply that theory to men. She really IS someone that I loathe as much as Roissy.
So I will back you up on this one, Clarence.
Interesting conceptual statement made by Roissy re: IMBRA:
“[editor: again, i don’t have to prove harm. it is enough to show that first principles are being violated.”
Sounds very similar to what we are saying about Roissy’s Hate Speech and Inciting of Sexual and Physical hate-crimes against women!
More on the use of linguistic hypnosis, NLP and undue influence from a professional NLP/Hypnosis Professional:
In order to be manipulated a person does not have to be a willing party at all. People can be duped because they do not know what is being done to them.
I know lots about hypnosis, but I wouldn’t profess to know everything about it. I’m assuming you are the same.
A child is not at the same conceptual and intellectual level as a grown up, or maybe you don’t agree with this?
And that’s because a child hasn’t got the knowledge, skill, or wisdom to know what the grown up is capable of, but the grown up knows exactly what he/she is doing.
Many grown ups are not as knowledgable, skilled, or wise, when it comes to using hypnotic linguistic techniques to influence the behaviour and responses of other people.
It is not their responsibility to know how to deal with these skills, when they don’t even know they’re being used to influence them.
I’M still having trouble seeing what the prolem is here – what’s so wrong with a Man wanting a purely sexual relationship with a Woman? Why is that so bad? Are we to assume that every last Woman we see around us wants a LTR? Even Desi FPUA aka Bag Lady the Desi Chick In Denial doesn’t even think that. Moreover, if a Woman simply wants a sexual relationship that’s seen as perfectly OK; it only seems to be a problem if a Man wants it. I see an inconsistency in basic logic and reasoning here.
LR EDIT: There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with wanting a purely sexual relationship as long as you have made it clear to the woman with actual HONEST WORDS that your intention is that and nothing more.
As long as both adults are completely aware that it is ONLY sex and maybe platonic friendship as well….no one is arguing that it’s “wrong”. But if you are pretending that you are interested in “dating” or having a relationship with her and you do NOT intend it, you’re a slimeball. What’s to argue?
Sort of like if a woman is JUST looking for a Sugar Daddy. There is nothing wrong with that as long as she is clear with the men she dates that she is looking JUST for that and he is totally aware and fine with it.
No one is trying to morally assassinate two adults who are BOTH AWARE with no question of EXACTLY what the “relationship” is about.
Oh, and by the way, if Ms. Romano is readning along, I’ve read her longwinded and meandering post wrt Ms. Elin Woods. There IS no rationalization for Intimate Partner Violence. PERIOD. I call on Ms. Romano, as a twice over Columbia alum and as a counselling professional, to clearly speak out on this issue, making clear her denunciation of Ms. Woods’ clearly violent actions. Two wrongs don’t a right make. She needs to be clear on this, or risk losing what little credibilty she has left.
LR EDIT: The problem with your argument against Denise is that you are attempting to morally assassinate her for NOT condemning Elin. While you have YET to say even ONE THING about a married man fucking 12 women without a condom and possibly infecting an innocent baby with a fatal disease.
How can you sit there and condemn HER when you have YET to address Tiger’s actions AT ALL?
Again, as for “Game being inherently abusive” – good luck with that. Merely quoting some books and the like, doesnt a clinical case study make. I call on Ms. Romano to actually show clinical case studies to back up her assertions, which are baseless on their face. If the mere act of Seduction is somehow “abusive” to Women, then she should be able to PROVE IT, not with longwinded bromides and appeals to authority, her own or anyone else’s, but rather with actual case studies. I await her response, and of course, to my Open Letter written a week ago (I shall be removing her SPAM post on my site as it doesn’t relate in any way to the actual subject matter discussed).
LR EDIT: We already have PROVED it. If you are using “sexual coercion” that is against the Law and considered “sexual assault” and “consent under duress”. I don’t see what you cannot comprehend about that. That’s the law whether you like it, I like it, or Denise likes it….and ignoring that fact won’t help you one bit when you are rightfully charged with attempted sexual assault. If you are coercing a woman and pressuring her which is exactly what “Last Minute Resistance” IS, then you are guilty of sexual assault under the Law. Period. There’s nothing to argue. If a man doesn’t want to be considered an attempted rapist, then you accept the very first “no” or the very first “brush off” of your physical advances like 95% of normal honorable men do.
I have NEVER had a man try to “convince me” to have sex with him when I denied his verbal or physical advances and if he did, I would report him to the police as the criminal that he is.
Lastly, it occurs to me that instead of speding all this time trying to censor or otherwise shutdown voices that they don’t like, that Lady Raine and Ms. Romano take some advice right from their own backyard – Desi FPUA aka Bag Lady Desi Chick has clearly stated on more than one occasion, the importance of agency and PERSONAL RESPONSBILITY on the part of Women. Afterall, no one can force a Woman to go home with a Man against her will, among a great many things. It is up to Women conduct themselves as full and free adults, which of course, comes with responsibilities.
The Obsidian
LR EDIT: I suppose we will see you enraged by the post at the Spearhead that says “Sexual Arousal IS consent” then won’t we? Considering that sexual arousal has nothing to do with consent at all. THAT statement and THAT attitude is UNDENIABLY RAPE. So I guess we can expect you to condemn that statement without question. Weird how you seem to continue to want to roll on us about not condemning this and that and yet you haven’t condemned statements like that and have not even condemned Tiger as the Criminal that he is.
“I have NEVER had a man try to “convince me” to have sex with him when I denied his verbal or physical advances and if he did, I would report him to the police as the criminal that he is.”
LR EDIT: Please read back through the comments to where Denise posted the FBI’s Legal Definition of Rape. This includes “consent made under duress”. Any verbal, mental, or physical intimidation used to “coerce” consent can and has been prosecute as attempted rape and attempted sexual assault.
Lady Raine, can you cite the relevant penal codes/court cases to back that up? The part about the man being a criminal, not your statement about a man not trying to convince you to have sex with him. I’ve read a lot of cases in my time and have never seen a conviction for “No, I don’t want to.” “Are you sure?” “Well.. ok.”
Also, the comments about you and Denise not coming out against Elin are just pointing out your hypocrisy on the issue since you both raised hell about the commenters not calling out Roissy. Pointing out that they’re just as hypocritical doesn’t make their point invalid.
To be fair to Denise though, she did recognize her inherent bias in one of the earlier posts. I’m not going to go up there and find it, but she admitted that she would feel differently if the roles were reversed and a faithful Tiger had taken a 9 iron to a cheating wife.
There’s a Constitution around here somewhere…..oh, I guess the women decided to shred it.
Oh well.
LR EDIT: Once again, way to not have a 9th grade education. The First Amendment does NOT protect against hate speech/crimes nor does it cover the use of minor children.
Not even a parent has the Constitutional Right to post their OWN minor child’s photo on an adult, x-rated, mature sexual content website, blog, or any other public domain.
The Constitution ALSO does NOT protect “free speech” that imposes on the rights and free speech of OTHER PEOPLE. That includes hate speeches meant to incite violence, criminal activities, and/or that imposes on the free will of a specific person, group, race, gender, culture, or religion.
Please review your understanding of the Constitution and the Laws of the United States that you live in before making yourself look any more foolish.
LR-
Maybe this has already been addressed.
You have your sons picture posted on this blog which to me is a mature sexual content website. You have reposted comments with the words, pussy, cum and ect. You even link to the this guy Roissy’s blog. You go into great detail about oral sex and such. How is this diffrent from Roissy posting the pic?
LR EDIT: I sincerely hope you are joking. Please find even ONE post here that would be considered anything above an “R” rating (at worst possibly “coarse language”). Please also browse the photos in my “Lady Raine’s Pics” Page and point out which photo would be considered anything above a “PG” rating whether of myself or of anyone else? There are none.
Let me guess, my post on the German U-Boats is somehow a “phallic symbol” and thus is actually all about “cocks”?
Please also direct me toward ANY inappropriate videos, photos, or content anywhere on my site. There is none. Please also point me toward any comment made here about a minor child, child pornography, sex with children, etc. Please also point me to where there there is ANY encouragement of hate crimes, rape, hate speech, or anything else?
There is none. My site is listed as the equivalent of an “R” Rating (17+ in case you aren’t aware).
Nice try, though.
o-
You are not undertsanding what I’m saying at all:
There is notwith a Man wanting a purely sexual relationship with a Woman – but there IS something very wrong with him not being honest and direct about him wanting that and only that – AND – in him using any deceptive, coercive, or manipulative methods to get that. The same is true for women.
There is not inconsistency. Try to keep up with what we’re saying.
I agree that there IS no rationalization for Intimate Partner Violence.
I’ve been thinking about this ALOT.
I do see what Elin did as wrong, HOWEVER, I also see that Tiger assaulted her on every level with his mulitple infidelities with multiple women.
He assaulted her emotionally, psychologically, verbally, physically, and sexually; AND, as far as I’m concerned ANY sex he had with her after he cheated on her w/o her consent was him raping her. Why? Because if she had known what he did, she would not have consented to having sex with him.
I do see her actions as understandable.
Here’s the problem: YOU and many other men are not speaking out against specific instances of male violence against women. I’ve been doing alot of research and reading alot of MRA sites – I see statsitical distortions, speaking out against women’s violence against men, and in the most extreme cases absolute denial that women have ever experienced violence or oppression or marginalization from men.
These sites seem to forget many facts which inspired feminism to develop, such as:
women being considered the legal property of their husbands
women being blamed for having been raped
men hitting their wives being legal
women not being allowed to be educated as men are and have careers as men do, thus having financial indepednece.
women being defined entirely by their biology – as though every women aspires and ought to aspire to being a wife, mother, cook, maid, and sex kitten for her husband.
I also see an alarming amount of unscientific and completely baseless assertions that women are not as intellectually capable as men.
When you start speaking out about all of that, then you can ask me to speak out against specific incidents of violence against men perpetrated by women.
I do oppose violence against men by anyone, and I’ve made that clear.
You seem to not understand at all that Tiger may have given Elin and her youngest breastfeeding child HIV or Hep C or any other STD. You do not seem to understand that infidelity is in and of itself, a form of intimate partner violence that is deliberate and that is abusive in every way possible.
If someone exposed you and your young child to HIV, Hep C, and every other STD, I think you’d be enraged also and probably want to hit them with something. That she did is unfortunate. But, I see it as no different as when a loved one lunges at a murder defendant at that person’s murder trial when they say “yeah, I killed her and 11 other people”.
I don’t think you have made one solid point, so I’m concerned with what you think of my credibility. You’ve proven that you make dishonest statements repeteadly.
Again, as for “Game being inherently abusive” It is, and I will prove it.
I think we DO need a clinical case study, and I will be following up with researchers to ask them to conduct one.
Since I don’t think there are any clinical case studies, I cannot quote any.
But, I don’t need to. Mystery’s book and Savoy’s newsletters ALONE prove what I’m saying.
Again, I really find your ignorance exhausting. I realize this thread is long, but if you read just the posts LR and I have made, we frankly have proven that game is abusive, that the snake oil salesmen who sell it to men are wrongly exploiting those men, that men are being taught methods that are abusive, manipulative, and psychologically and physically coercive, which can easily lead to sexual assault and rape.
Again, you fail to understand the significant difference between LR and I informing our opinions of game from the personal opinions of other women here who agree with you versus the legal and medical definitions of:
rape
undue influence
psychological manipulation
physical coercion
sexual assault
abuse
violence
hate speech
hate groups
cult groups.
Perhaps you should consider that those definitions hold much more weight than yours or the men and women you’ll find who agree with you; you have all chosen to completely disregard what we’ve clearly stated about these legal and medical definitions.
Instead of your longwinded and annoying emails when I’ve TOLD you I will reply to you when I’m able to do so – why don’t you use this time to read those legal and medical definitions and reconsider your position in an intellectually honest manner?
Again, re: PERSONAL RESPONSBILITY on the part of Women: you clearly have not read anything posted here from NLP and hypnosis professionals as well as what has been stated about undue influence and psychological ad physical coercion.
I would think for your own good, you’d want to fully understand these concepts – at the very least.
“Afterall, no one can force a Woman to go home with a Man against her will, among a great many things.”
Your statement above is untrue. Many women are forced to go home with men in rape situations. This is fairly common.
And, when a man uses deception about who he is and what his intentions are, he is conning a woman to go home with him, whether it’s the first night or the tenth night. He is denying her the ability to make an informed decision because he has been deceptive, manipulative and coercive. This is abusive and psychologically violent.
“It is up to Women conduct themselves as full and free adults, which of course, comes with responsibilities.”
Yes and men have the very same responsibility. Therefore, when men resort to deception, manipulation, psychological coercion, undue influence, physical coercin, and outright lying; they are NOT conducting themselves as adults, responsibly, or ethically.
Denise
The FBI’s definition of rape, which as far as I can tell isn’t actually in the comments here, is irrelevant everywhere but possibly D.C. Even then, it’s not clear that’s an actual legal definition. However, here are legal definition of rape.
rape, n. 1. At common law, unlawful sexual intercourse committed by a man with a woman not his wife through force and against her will. • The common-law crime of rape required at least a slight penetration of the penis into the vagina. Also at common law, a husband could not be convicted of raping his wife. — Formerly also termed rapture; ravishment. [Cases: Rape 1. C.J.S. Rape §§ 1–3, 15.] 2. Unlawful sexual activity (esp. intercourse) with a person (usu. a female) without consent and usu. by force or threat of injury. • Most modern state statutes have broadened the definition along these lines. Rape includes unlawful sexual intercourse without consent after the perpetrator has substantially impaired his victim by administering, without the victim’s knowledge or consent, drugs or intoxicants for the purpose of preventing resistance. It also includes unlawful sexual intercourse with a person who is unconscious. Marital status is now usu. irrelevant, and sometimes so is the victim’s gender. — Also termed (in some statutes) unlawful sexual intercourse; sexual assault; sexual battery; sexual abuse; (in Latin) crimen raptus. Cf. sexual assault under ASSAULT; sexual battery under BATTERY.
You must (generally) use physical force or a threat thereof to commit rape in the United States legal systems.
LR EDIT: Well, perhaps Denise will repost it for us. I don’t recall which thread it was on. OR you could just click on the link to the FBI that I have already provided in my blogroll. There is also, of course a Medical Definition as well….but it really doesn’t vary a whole lot.
As I said: “under duress” does NOT have to involve a physical intimidation nor one using a weapon. Obviously, some rapists were smart enough to figure “Hey as long as I get her to SAY THE WORD YES” or “consent verbally”…..that’s all that matters. WRONG. That is why the law allows for “mental/verbal/situational” coercion or “consent under duress”.
This is not something “new” or imaginary. The law has always made this allowance for exactly that reason. One does not have to openly scream “fuck me or die bitch!” nor hit her and/or brandish a weapon to be convicted of sexual assault. (The reason I say “sexual assault” and not “rape” is because typically verbal/mental intimidation is the lesser charge due to the lack of physical force.
Glad to see Roissy is back. His blog is pure genius and, of course, is about more than getting laid. Roissy has a very keen insight into female – and male – psychology.
As for his looks, he seems kind of average to me. But the fact that an average looking guy can pull the women he wants is testament to the power of game.
I can see why some women fear Roissy. Game amounts to sexual jiu-jitsu and strikes at the very heart of female power.
Roissy and gamers break no laws and are simply living the life they choose. I don’t give an unqualified support to game (having children changes things) but so many men are unhappy in this feminist society and Roissy helps them see the causes of this unhappiness.
LR EDIT: *LR tries not to dissolve into laughter*
Did you actually use the term “Psychology” when referring to Roissy??? HA ahhah ha!!
Second, Roissy is NOT the “norm” amongst men….he’s not even the “norm” amongst lizards and snakes. A “normal” person does not seethe with violent, bitter, uncontrollable hatred and venom for the opposite gender and every male that he is clearly jealous of.
Furthermore, I really hope that one of the women he has “Psychologically Conditioned” to consent to coerced sex with him comes forward and files the sexual assault charges that he deserves.
More importantly, a man who is “breaking hearts” *LR rolls with laughter again* he wouldn’t be telling girls he dates that he “loves them” on date number 3, lying about his age because he hates himself and knows he’s quickly running out of options that don’t involve Rohypnol, and apparently has a tiny, crooked penis on top of it. Ahhh, nothing like an unmarried, old, unattractive, middle income nerd with serious psychological issues to make a girl want to drop her panties, eh?
Tolkin:
Really? Really?
You’ve got to be kidding. Perhaps you should remind yourself of how the US government works. The Constitution has nothing to do with any of this.
There are legislative, judicial, and executive branches of government. Democracy is a process of, by, and for the people.
If you oppose laws and practices, then legally oppose them and use your many rights and responsibliites as a citizen to make your voice known.
That is what LR and I are doing. We are using our freedom of speech to raise awareness around hate speech, hate crimes, and the intentional psychological, physical, and sexual coercion of women by many PUAs.
Is there anything in the Constitution about the right of anyone to ues coercion, manipluation, and deception to get someone to sleep with them? No, there isn’t.
Have you read *any* of the information we’ve provided here for you on the legal and medical definitions of rape, undue influence, and on the info we’ve provided about STD transmission?
After you’ve read all of LR’s and my posts on this blog, perhaps THEN you should THINK (try your best) and then you should comment.
Of course I would feel differently about a FAITHFUL TIGER taking a nine iron to his wife.
BUT, he is NOT faithful.
And, yes I do think there is bias in how we as a culture view women assaulting men. I acknowledge that – and I will have more to say about that in the future.
HOWEVER, as I think about it more – I do see Tiger guilty of attempted murder of his wife and young child given what he knowing exposed them to.
There MUST be acknoweldgment that INFIDELITY is a SERIOUS act of INTENTIONAL VIOLENCE with dealy consequences when it involves unprotected sex, as Tiger’s infidentilies did most egregiously.
Therefore, while I do believe that Elin should not have hit him, I understand it.
AND, I will say it again, if Tiger had sex with Elin at all while he was doing this, he also RAPED her each time he did so if she was not aware of what he was doing.
If she knew what he was doing, she would NOT have consented to any sex with him.
Therefore, he is also most likely guilty of having raped her repeatedly.
I will also add that she probably would not have agreed to bear his children if she knew this was going on. I’m not even sure WHAT to call that as a crime.
Pregnancy and childbirth can be very difficult for a woman’s body and very painful.
These are all very serious crimes that Tiger knowingly and intentionally committed against Elin, to whom he made vows to love, cherish, and remain faithful.
Therefore, I fully understand what she did. And I do not think she should be prosectued given that she is already being punished by having to wait at least 3 months for accurate test results to learn if she and her young child have been exposed to any deadly diseases by her selfish, violent, abusive husband.
Denise
pcbpiper -
WHERE did you get that definition of rape and how OLD is it?
I know of now state in the US in which it is legal for a man to rape his wife.
We’ve give you the cite for the legal/medical definition of rape we’re using.
Why do you present us with an out-of-date, irrelevant defintion?
Do you believe men have the right to rape their wives?
LR EDIT: I know you already posted those facts before and I don’t understand how these people can’t even be bothered to do something simple like Google “consent under duress” or even previous sexual assault cases involving “non-physical” coercion.
It’s not fucking rocket science to read and comprehend the laws that are available to each and every one of us and it seems like a huge majority of people think that somehow “ignorance” or actual “denial” of what the Laws are will somehow make it less illegal, LMAO.
liverlips but so many men are unhappy in this feminist society and Roissy helps them see the causes of this unhappiness.
If you know any older gentelmen, say over the age of 75, ask them if every male was happy back in his day. I bet he will tell you no. The difference was, you weren’t told that 100% happiness 24/7 365 was normal. You were also made man or “woman” the heck up when crap hit the fan and just deal with it.
LR EDIT: Chic, I couldn’t agree more. Men like my Dad and Granddad would literally spit on these men who have no respect for their wives (and talk about them like a common whore), who go around trying to manipulate and coerce women into sex, and most importantly men who seem to think they are somehow ENTITLED to “a good woman” and “sex with tons of women” JUST because they were born and maybe are “nice guys”.
Um, no. My parents raised me that a real man or woman bust their asses to earn those privileges. And those ARE privileges and NOT RIGHTS. Men today seem to think they were born with a right to a happy, easy, sex-filled, supermodel-wife without doing anything to earn that privilege.
In my opinion, they are at the bottom of the barrel for a very good reason. You reap what you sow and if you don’t want to earn your way with hard work and a strong and honorable will…..you’re another vampire on the tete of society and nothing more.
liverlips:
thanks for your comments. I have some questins for you:
Pleaes tell us specifically what you see as “pure genius” about roissy’s blog?
Why do you believe that “Roissy has a very keen insight into female – and male – psychology”? Has he or have you studied psychology? How have you determined that what he claims to be “female psychology” or “male psychology” is actually valid, reliable, and true? Have you compared what he claims to be “female psychology” and “male psychology” with what actual psychologists say about such things?
Please define this term for us: “pull the women”.
“I can see why some women fear Roissy.”
Would you want your daughter to date Roissy or any man who reads his site? Would you want your son to read Roissy’s site and treat women as Roissy claims to and advises?
How does your wife feel about Roissy’s site? Does she know you view him as a genius?
“Game amounts to sexual jiu-jitsu” – Please elaborate on this statement. I think this would be very helpful.
Would you want your daughter to date a man who uses sexual jiu-jitsu? Why or why not?
Would you want your son to use sexual jiu-jitsu on women? Why or why not?
Is it ethical for anyone to use any form of sexual jiu-jitsu on others who do not know sexual jiu-jitsu or even have awareness that such a thing exists? Why or why not?
“Roissy and gamers break no laws” – please read above to see the legal and medical definitions of rape LR and I have posted and discussed at length here. Then, let me know if you still think gamers are breaking no laws.
As for roissy breaking no laws – please read our posts about him and his claims to have hit women as well as his posts advising men to:
“cum in her mouth and hold it closed so she has to swallow” (phsyical and sexual assault.
“Hitting women turns them on” – (inciting physical violence against women – potentially a hate crime and definitely hate speech).
his advice to men to “raw-dog” as many women as they can: physical and sexual violence in negligently exposing women to STDs.
his advice to men to be unfaithful to their girlfriends. When anyone is sexually unfaithful to anyone – regardless of gender (rog), they are guilty of the following:
Intentional emotional, psychological, verbal, sexual, and physical abuse.
AND, any sex they’ve had with their partner while that person was unaware of the cheating and did not consent to it, is, as far as I am concerned, rape as that person would very likely have NOT consented to the sex with the cheater if s/he knew of the cheating.
and there are many more examples.
“and are simply living the life they choose.” Is it okay to live the life you choose if that includes intentionally harming, raping, violating, coercing, manipulating, sexually assaulting, physically assaulting, psychologically coercing, and otherwise violating the boundaries of women and advocating that other men do so and that there is nothing wrong with it?
“I don’t give an unqualified support to game (having children changes things)”
How so and why?
“but so many men are unhappy in this feminist society and Roissy helps them see the causes of this unhappiness.”
I ask the following questions sincerely, and I hope you’ll respond:
What about this society is “feminist” and what about that is bad?
What about the feminist aspects of this society cause men to feel unhappy in response to it?
How have you determined that Roissy’s conclusions about men’s unhappiness are accurate given the infinte number of possible reasons for men’s unhappiness?
Have you compared roissy’s rationale on this “feminist society” and “why men are unhappy” with any other credible and reliable sources?
If so, what are those?
What does roissy say that you believe is accurate, true, and speaks for many men?
Thanks
Denise
please also visit my blog at: http://www.eqwithdenise.wordpress.com and feel free to answer me there as well.
I have some questions posted right now I would love for you to answer them if you’d like. thanks.
Chic, great point!
I really do want to hear specifically from me what is so objectionable to them about feminism and why they view our current culture as feminist.
I also want to hear from them on what an ideal culture would look like.
I’ve posed these questions on my blog for any men who would like to comment.
Thanks
Denise
denise, the best advice you can give women who want to avoid being gamed is to not sleep with a man before three months of knowing/dating him and to meet his mom first.
Denise Just because a woman – or anyone – is aroused, does not mean consent has been given.
This is true because a woman can be moist at any time. On the otherhand, I don’t know if we should make it so that a man has to ask his partner “can I touch you on your leg”
“okay, moving up higher, can I touch your stomach”
“now I want to touch your breasts, is that okay”
” can I prepare to enter?”
you get what I’m saying?
LR EDIT: Yes that’s a good timeline because most of the PUA’s seem to follow the hilarious “3 date Rule” where if they don’t get laid by date #3 they’re out the door, LMAO.
That seriously means that most normal women don’t have a THING to worry about because any quality woman would NOT be giving out anything but kissing in the first three dates.
Unless they are common crackwhores or drunken college girls, of course. But last I checked, no one needed Game to get THOSE sorts of women.
Chic,
I think advise to women and men to not have sex until they learn enough about the other person is great advice. And I think we all need to, as adults, take responsibility for knowing what we need to know and ASKING and for HONESTLY answering any questions put to us.
I see game teaching men to be deceptive and not hiding this at all.
RE: your later comments. I’m not saying there needs to be verbal communication for every instance of touching in either direction by man or woman.
What I AM saying is that there are many ways to communicate and so if a man touches a woman and she moves his hand away. ONCE should be enough for him to stop.
Again, we’re all adults. So, that means STOP and any idiot knows that.
For these games to on one hand say “If you women can be conned into sleeping with a man, then you’re not acting like adults and you shouldn’t be able to hold jobs!” and on the other hand say “well, women have this anti-slut defense and we have very right to use LMR to break through it”
is just bullshit, abusive, manipulative, dishonset, and yet ANOTHER pathetic example of some (not all) men doing all they can to justify completely unacceptable behavior in intellectually dishonest ways.
I’m finding extremely disturbing examples of this kind of irrtaional, illogical, and entitled thinking on the many MRA websites I’ve been researching lately.
Denise
Good advice, chic noir, because women are helpless, mildly retarded and without will power or any agency whatsoever.
A woman is a delicate, simple snowflake, one who crumples in the face of even the most mild Game. Women aren’t adults with free will – duh!
LR EDIT: God, you really are a retard. Let me dumb this down: Game uses both “classical conditioning” and also “operant conditioning” which are both PROVEN Psychological methods. They are BOTH involved in both brainwashing and mental conditioning.
Another fact is that each and every woman and man, child and adult whether they are a Genius….or an intellectual dullard, are subject to “classical and operant conditioning”. This is is a proven fact.
If a woman attempted to use these very same methods on you, but simply reversed the gender and did EVERYTHING ELSE the same, you would be easily conditioned as well.
A person is not consciously aware that they have been conditioned because of course they would be enraged instead of seemingly complacent about it even if it is a more extreme Cult-Type conditioning. That is why those people will say they are there by their own free will and appear calm, happy, and complacent. Later when they are forcibly removed, they remember in horror and rage what was actually done to them…..and also what they were conditioned to do without their knowledge. This is also a fact, please check on that yourself if you’d like. Now of course a mass-cult is not in the same neighborhood as “Game” but it is simply a more extreme example.
Please remember that ANY person on earth of ANY intelligence level can be subjected to both mild “brainwashing” methods….or more abusive and direct “brainwashing” methods.
You cannot “fight” this somehow. You will NOT be aware of “mild brainwashing” methods such as the ones used in Game. And much like all cases of classical and operant conditioning, the victims almost never have any memory or knowledge of it consciously AT ALL.
They don’t know WHY they respond the way they do, they don’t know HOW they respond the way they do, and they will STILL respond that way whether they “like it” or not because they have been mentally conditioned to do so.
Please educate yourself on the info I provided about and then you may come back and contribute to the discussion instead of making remarks that a mentally disabled person would laugh at.
Thanks,
LR
Tolkin:
I’m asking you again to please try to use your critical reasoning skills:
“Good advice, chic noir, because women are helpless, mildly retarded and without will power or any agency whatsoever.”
We are NOT saying that women are helpless, mildly retarded, and without will power or any agency. We ARE saying that NO HUMAN can make a good decision for themselves if they are being lied to, manipulated, given false information, deceived, and otherwise defrauded.
THAT is why we have both civil and criminal court cases when there are intentional acts of FRAUD perpetrated on others. FRAUD is a serious crime when it concerns a number of things in our society.
Why shouldn’t sex be included in that also? If a woman uses all of her faculties to determine that she will sleep with a man based on his intentional deception of her, THAT is just another example of FRAUD, and as far as I’m concerned, it is rape.
“A woman is a delicate, simple snowflake, one who crumples in the face of even the most mild Game. Women aren’t adults with free will – duh!”
Women are no more delicate than men. Anyone, regardless of gender, can be unduly influenced, deceived, hypnotized without their knowledge or consent, NLP’d similarly, and psychologically coerced in ways that result in their free will being de-activated.
Surely you’re aware of stockholm syndrome, the brainwashing of political prisoners thoughout history, unclassified reports of CIA psychiatric mind control experiments and results, the very real and very effective methods used by cults to control others, and those methods in Game which intentionally attempt the very same kind of control – with the openly admitted goal of getting the woman into bed.
Are men who game women in these ways being responsible adults? No, they’re using any means necessary to have an unfair advantage over women – for whom they have zero regard b/c they believe they are entitled to do this in order to get laid.
How are men (presumably adults with free will) using their free will when they decide to intentionally deceive women by using these techniques?
When someone shoots fish in a barrel, is the fish responsible for his own death b/c he could’nt get away or is the shooter responsible b/c he created unethical and unfair advantages?
When a hunter goes on a “canned hunt” – in an area that is not the wild – but is a fenced in preserve where animals roam, but are very limited in their ability to get away from the hunter – isn’t this giving an unfair advantage to the hunter?
Is this ethical? No.
Why don’t these men focus on being better people instead of resorting to intentional deception, conning, trickery, coercion, and other unethical methods?
OMG! Brainwashing GAME! Hahahahaha!
Can I have mezmrizm?
LR EDIT: Tokien, please refrain from posting when you are under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol. Incoherent posts are not something I consider a contribution to anything going on here and makes you look retarded.
Halp! Teh Game is loosed on the internets! Haaallllp!
Hahahahahaha! Can I has goofee?
Brrgmfffgh! Braynwashd! OMFG! Haaalp! Teh Internets getng blurrree!
tolkin =
read the comments on this site from NLP and hypnosis professionals and THEN comment on this topic.
Thanks
Denise
denise I really do want to hear specifically from me what is so objectionable to them about feminism and why they view our current culture as feminist.
Denise, I took a stab at it. I’m sure I left out some stuff but here goes.
because they are taught that they are not snowflakes
because it’s not acceptable to lash out violently at others because they think, feel, worship, look different that you do.
because they are not taught that they are number one and women are number 2.
because they can’t all be the Don Daper from Mad Men.
Because they NAMs dare look them in the eye and demand equal treatment.
Because there aren’t enough 10′s to go around.
Because very few women will equal bella donn’s wildness.
because women are no longer open to being a physical and emotional punching bag for 50+ years who asks the next day ” honey how would you like your eggs” .
because they aren’t good looking enough to get the initial wow and swooning from women that a guy who looks like Epoxy, Reggie bush or Russell Wong gets…
because some men have truly were wronged.
because some women are so stupid that they repeatedly chase BS guys.
because a guy who is a 3 can’t get tail the same that a woman who is a three can.
because they watched their mom harass their dad daily from the time in came home until the time he went back out to work.
because their dad abandoned them as children.
because they blame their mom for being a single mother.
because they don’t get a button that allows them to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.
because condoms don’t feel as good.
because they never learned the necessary social skills that are required to effectively communicate with women.
because they will never measure up.
because they stayed out of trouble, worked hard, went to a good school, makes 100k+ plus per year but that roided up bouncer who can’t spell his name and makes only 10k per year gets more poon than a toilet seat.
because their dad was around but really tuned out.
because some women really want a separate set of rules.
because some women don’t understand men.
because some men don’t understand women.
because they are really gay.
because they don’t know how to “satisfy” a woman.
because debt for those just starting out is scary.
because some women don’t know when to just shut the heck up.
because they are mentally unstable.
because some women see beta men as lesser men who should just take the abuse that they(those women) dish out to them.
because they are angry at everything.
because they feel for the lie that your suppose to ” always be happy”
I also want to hear from them on what an ideal culture would look like.
One where they do two hrs of work a day for bill Gates money and live the g-manefesto/mick jagger lifestyle for the other 22.
Denise,
It’s from the 8th edition of Black’s Law Dictionary (2004). This is the standard for all LEGAL definitions in the United States. Having said that, it is not precisely true for all jurisdictions given how many possible minor differences there are in the definition.
Also Denise, read the end of the definition. It clearly says that marital status is irrelevant in modern law. In other words, marriage is no longer a defense of rape. Read the whole source, not just cherry pick.
Both you and Lady proved that you just kinda assumed what my point was. I said that threat of physical harm (aka duress) is also rape. I’m arguing with this idea of coercion that it’s legally rape to ask a woman repeatedly to change her mind about sex, which seems to be your definition of coercion.
I will research these mythical cases that you speak of where “coercion” was enough to convict a man of rape. I just think that you should be able to at least point to one on your own without playing “oh, the information is out there somewhere card.” Like Denise, I have stuff to do, mainly finishing a legal brief. But, I will look into this when I get a chance.
LR EDIT: Please read the comment I just posted that gives examples of “attempted sexual assault” that involves non physical threats of violence or even words at all.
Also, Denise, attempted murder? You may know an awful lot about psychology, but you have a very poor understanding of the law. Murder requires a very specific intent. If Tiger knew he had AIDs and slept with Elin, then that maybe could be attempted murder. If he didn’t know, there is absolutely no way to meet the required mens rea.
LR EDIT: Yes, but he could still be prosecuted with “Voluntary Manslaughter” due to the element of “willful negligence”(that being that no one FORCED him to fuck 12 women without a condom) even without clear intent. And no motive is necessary to prosecute either.
Getting THAT charge isn’t really sweet deal, either though.
Lady Raine,
Minor correction; It’d have to be Attempted Involuntary Manslaughter as Voluntary occurs in “the heat of passion” or “heat of the moment.” Involuntary is where negligence enters in. Obviously, it couldn’t actually be manslaughter as no one is dead. And you’re right, that still wouldn’t be good, but I find it very difficult to believe a prosecutor will bring that case.
Also, I found an definition of rape under Federal Law.
Under Federal law, whoever knowingly causes another person to engage in a sexual act by using force against that other person or threatening or placing that other person in fear that any person will be subjected to death, serious bodily injury, or kidnapping or attempts to do so, shall be fined and imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.[FN3] In addition, whoever knowingly renders another person unconscious and thereby engages in a sexual act with that other person or administers to another person by force or threat of force or without the knowledge or permission of that person a drug, intoxicant, or other similar substance and thereby substantially impairs the ability of that other person to appraise or control conduct and then engages in a sexual act with that other person or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.[FN4] The statutory definition of forcible rape is not to be confused with what is commonly called “statutory rape,” that is, sexual intercourse with a girl under the age of consent as defined by statute.[FN5] 65 Am. Jur. 2d Rape § 1 (2009).
The FBI definition would have to be in line with that, which again, requires at least a threat of bodily.
LR EDIT: The Voluntary vs. Involuntary precedents seem to go in both directions in case law. That’s why I posed a likely worst case scenario (ie: “Voluntary Manslaughter”) because sometimes no intent is needed to charge “voluntary”. That seems to be a very subjective bit of the law (and it varies state to state as well), but yes either one is possible as long as “willful negligence” is present.
Tiger had unprotected sex with more than ten women. Anyone with a brain knows that exposes you and any of your sex partners (and your breastfeeding child) to HIV, AIDS, Hep C, and every other STD.
AND, Tiger KNEW that most of the other women he was sleeping with also had other sex partners.
So, the exposure to risk just keeps increasing exponentially.
So, yes, he potentially and ver likely exposed his wife and breastfeeding child to deadly diseases.
And, Elin now has to wait for three months to get accurate bloodwork back to know for sure what her own and her child’s health status is the total harm of what Tiger did to her and their child.
He knew damn well what the risks were and he chose to take them anyway.
Denise
*harm.
Denise, your medical definition of rape is lacking a cite as well. It says when it was last edited but not actually where the definition originates.
“substantially impairs the ability of that other person to appraise or control conduct ”
If hypnosis, NLP or other undue influence is used, it fits the rape definintion above.
And, correct. nobody is dead in the woods case. however, it is still possible that her or her child’s results will come back as having tested positive for something fatal.
pcbpiper
as we have previously covered in this thread, people have been prosecute for attempted murder after having infected others with HIV.
I belive all of these cases were when someone already knew they had HIV.
However, I don’t see Tiger’s chosen behavior as any different. He is smart enough to know the risks of having unprotected sex with more than 10 women and then sleeping with his wife – when he also knows his mistresses were also having sex with others.
It will be surprising if he hasn’t exposed his wife and child to any diseases.
Again Denise, you cherry picked.
“substantially impairs the ability of that other person to appraise or control conduct ”
You have to read the whole sentence. “administers to another person by force or threat of force or without the knowledge or permission of that person a drug, intoxicant, or other similar substance and thereby substantially impairs the ability of that other person to appraise or control conduct”
Key here is “administers…a drug, intoxicant, or other similar substance.” Hypnosis is not a drug, intoxicant or other similar substance.
Also, I’m not saying he couldn’t be charged with attempted manslaughter, just that, until someone dies, it can’t be manslaughter.
The fact that you can’t see the difference between knowing having HIV and engaging in intercourse and unknowingly doing so, while still acting negligently, is pretty frightening. It’s equivalent to shooting a gun at someone versus shooting a gun at a target that someone could walk behind without you knowing. One’s attempted murder, the other’s possibly attempted involuntary manslaughter.
LR, have enjoyed your battle with Roissy. Nice entertainment substitute while he was away.
I do hope you are keeping your distance from this Romano chick, though. If you read her novella-length posts carefully you’ll notice how they teeter on the edge of irrationality. She is like one of those people you who just starts talking to you on the subway — and doesn’t stop.
Couple that with her arrogant self-righteousness and you know it’s just a matter of time before she crosses the line and finds herself on the witness stand trying to explain how she shot some guy because he disrespected her MA, EdM — which is equaivalent to rape under hypnosis.
You’ve already set off “internet tramp” and “anti-semite” flags (not that I agree, but it is reality). You should be careful about any possible connections between you and her when she goes down.
Roissy’s deleted a lot of his posts. Anyone have a link to the archive that was made of his blog?
No, I did not cherry pick.
I realize that hypnosis and NLP are not substances – however, the effect is the same.
AND, we all know that it often takes the law to catch up with psychology.
Hypnosis and NLP can be unknowingly forced and used on someone without their informed consent, and the effect and outcome can be the same.
What I’m saying is not frightening at all.
You seem to be looking for a joust rather than finding common ground, which makes communicating with you unpleasant and tiring.
If you want to give it another go and try to see what I’m saying, I’d be happy to do that.
But if you’re going to do the opposite, it’s not a constructive contribution to the discussion.
for all of you who think hypnosis cannot result in rape, read this:
http://www.adam-eason.com/2008/04/17/man-posing-as-hypnotist-charged-with-rape/
And this:
http://www.medsci.ox.ac.uk/gazette/previousissues/56vol1/Part8
LR EDIT: HEY!! Your posts magically stopped going right to the SPAM folder!!! Did you change something in your name/links/site? Because if you did, it fixed the prob!!
The Baffa case seems to have disappeared from the newspapers, but the charges I could find have him charged with rape for the 13 year old (statutory). The 19 year old would probably fall under a different category, sexual assault or something along those lines due to his implying he was a doctor and prescribing the sex as part of a treatment. I’m going to go into the court records later and see what I find.
Additionally, that medical journal doesn’t cite any cases where hypnosis led to a conviction for rape in the United States, which doesn’t help your position about the legal definition of rape.
Also, I fail to see why explaining that you and Lady Raine are mistaken about the Legal definition of rape is “jousting.” One would think you should be as open to information as possible. I realize that it’s Raine’s blog and you are partnered with her to some degree in this enterprise. I also realize that you two have the right to want to control the discussion on this board. But, an intellectually honest correction of a fallacy is not jousting. You’ll notice I’ve not challenged the medical definition of rape since I have expertise in the matter. I do know the legal definition though.
Lady Raine- actually involuntary manslaughter would be worse as it’s not mitigated by being a crime of passion. So, I actually upped the crime Woods would be charged with.
OMG – Romano raped mee over teh Internets with her babblepostings!
MMMMFRGHH! Will sue for much moolah!? Yes!
LR EDIT: I already told you about the unintelligible comments. If you are going to insult me, Denise, or anyone else here….please at least attempt to do so creatively.
Denise is posting valid and factual links to the questions some of the commenters here are asking and I’d imagine also to validate some of her argument/beliefs for informative purposes. If you cannot be bothered to even read what they are linked to, then don’t comment about it.
If you google “hypnosis NLP seduction”
you will get about 206,000 results, as seen below:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=hypnosis%20NLP%20seduction
B–
“Roissy’s deleted a lot of his posts. Anyone have a link to the archive that was made of his blog?”
I do have MOST of the originals saved article by article in my Bookmarks (and the comments and usual narration from Roissy in the comments section as well).
The problem is that I don’t really want to link publicly articles that I have such a serious problem with in the first place (you see my dilemna?).
However, “No More Mr Nice Guy” has been keeping a running tally and itemized list in the “Exposed!” comments section that is pretty up to date as to which posts Roissy is deleting day to day.
To find deleted posts in “Google Cache”: (and save them) yourself: Just go to regular old “Google”. Type JUST the exact title of the post you are looking for (as provided by “No More”) such as “Hitting a Woman Turns Her On”. Then you hit search as usual and when you get the usual page of search results and links to that post, you look UNDER the search result (and clickable link that is now removed by Roissy) and you will see a little blue “Cached” underneath each result listing.
If you click “Cache” under the appropriate post title you are looking for, it will take you to the original post w/ comments and then you can save it, bookmark it, send it to another person, etc.
Maybe we will be lucky and No More Mr. Nice Guy will be so kind as to tally and post all of the titles he has deleted thus far in one easy to follow list??? (LOL if you don’t want to, I’ll try to when I get some spare time).
(And “B” if you are having trouble getting them from the cache, just email me privately and I’ll try to send as many as I have thus far to you
)
http://www.rabailkal.com/
http://www.rabailkal.com/hypnose.htm
http://www.internet-grocer.net/hypnosis.pdf
Iz geting sleeepy! Obama maid me sleeepy wit his hipno-wurdz!
Help Doktr Rabaykal!
Oh nooo – iz HypnoToahd!!!! http://r33b.net/
Wat to do? Must cal lawyur-man an sue him!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you Google
hypnosis wealthy husband
you get 1,060,000 hits
http://tinyurl.com/hypnogoldigger
LR EDIT: Good! Then you understood the previous example I gave! Gold digging through hypnosis has been done to men. I suppose you find that totally acceptable since you seem to think Game is acceptable to use on women?
Or do you now admit like most of the others have that it’s really about “winning” against women who you view as an enemy to you?
Ethical Issues with “Game”:
In The Mystery Method: How to Get Beautiful Women into Bed, there are a number of ethical problems:
1. The subtitle is predatory and completely focused on using women sexually.
2. There are completely false statements made throughout the book as though they are scientific fact, when they are not:
“Nature will unapologetically weed your genes out of existence if you don’t take action and learn how to attract women now.” (p.xiiii).
“This is why I am privileged to share with you more than ten years of experience in the science of social dynamics and the art of the cold-approach pickup.” (p. xiv).
Casanova, who allegedly “enjoyed erotic liaisons with 122 women during his travels across Europe” is celebrated. (p. 1).
Women’s “value” is entirely based on physical appearance and is rated on a degrading numeric scale. (throughout the book).
Despite Mystery’s “Statement of Ethics”: “Mystery protégés focus on attraction first, not seduction. Ethically, they are attractors, not seducers” (p. 44), the book contradicts this by routinely advising men how and when to seduce women. Mystery includes the definition of Seduction:
1. To persuade to disobedience or disloyalty
2. To lead astray usually by persuasion or false promises
3. To carry out the physical seduction of; entice to sexual intercourse
The marketing of “Game” to men is unethical in that terms such as “algorithms”, “the science of courtship”, “dating science”, dynamic social homeostasis”, “rewiring her attraction circuitry”, “dynamic social intuition”, “replication value”, “survival value”, “backward rationalize”, “anti-slut defense”, “decimal rating scale”, “calibration”, “internalization”, “negative replication value”,
Actual scientific theories such as Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs (check this), “pre-selection”, and Evolutionary Psychology are distorted and misused.
Non-critical use and validation of the term “slut” (p. 28).
“She does have a boyfriend and she is willing to cheat on him (they often are if your game is tight), but she doesn’t want to feel guilty about it. This is her rationalization process at work. As long as she mentions the boyfriend before sleeping with you, she can rationalize to herself that it was your fault. Sure, she might regret it later, but that won’t necessarily stop her from cheating.” (p. 36).
“Emotions are circuits in the brain that judge value and create motivation. They are designed to keep you alive and to replicate your genes. (p. 37).
“What a woman likes or says she likes, is not necessarily what she responds to emotionally (and thus sexually). (p. 37).
“All women have a powerful interruption system knows as “anti-slut defense” or ASD. When you play solid game, you will be able to escalate smoothly without triggering a woman’s anti-slut defense”. (p. 38).
“A woman often won’t do anything that makes her feel responsible for the escalation – she needs plausible deniability. The Venusian artist must take responsibility to make things happen and act with moxie”. (p. 38).
“Don’t act as if things are a big deal. Just repeat the words “no problem” in your head until you really believe it. No matter what happens, it’s no big deal. (p. 38).
“As you proceed with the pickup, keep the woman just inside that window between revalidation and rejection. She must be baited to chase in small increments, just like a cat with a string.”. (p. 38).
Women are referred to as “targets”, “girls”,
“Attraction is not a choice” – David DeAngleo (p. 44).
“In the same way that we men automatically feel an overwhelming attraction toward any Sports Illustrated swimsuit model because she turns on all our switches, women can be made to feel exactly the same way toward us if we only devise a clever method for systematically turning on all their attraction switches.” (p. 45).
“the majority of a man’s attraction switches are set to respond to…p.45 check this!
“Demonstrating that you have women interested in you, in this direct manner, is only one of many ways to trigger the same sexual selection switch. There are other ways. You can also wear women’s perfume. When a woman asks what you are wearing say, “Nothing.” Smell your collar and then, as if remembering, say, “Ah,” and smile to yourself.
Another way to flip her preselection switch is to have a lipstick kiss on your cheek. In the exact same way you feel greater attraction for a woman if she has an appealing hip-to-waist ratio, a woman will feel toward you because of that all-important lipstick kiss”. (p. 46)
Seduction is mutual: p 47
“it takes an average of 5 to 10 hours of cumulative comfort building before a woman is ready for seduction. (p. 54).
Hello Ms. Romano,
I shall be taking up your latest post in a moment, but I just wanted to respond to a really baffling post of yuors that you made earlier; I quote you in full:
“Clarence and others:
I think there are alot of misconceptions about what many men seem to think are “green lights” that are in fact NOT necessarily green lights.
To use a metaphor for this, I used to have an ongoing argument with a former boyfriend about my nipples. My nipples are always protruding; it’s just the way they are. I could be on a beach in Mexico when it’s 90 degreees, and my nipples will protrude.
He used to get very protective of me and be very concerned that men were looking at my nipples and interpreting this as a sign that I was aroused. He went so far as wanting me to buy new bras with thick padding to cover up my nipples.
I told him that people need to learn that some nipples protrude and some don’t and these misconceptions about what signals arousal need to stop. People need to be educated out of their ignorance, and they need to get over my and others’ nipples.
And, I shouldn’t have to buy all new bras because people are ignorant about normal nipple anatomy and misinterpret something that means absolutely nothing.
So, to use that as a metaphor, many women enjoy dressing up. I know I do when I go out. I love dresses, shoes, hats, purses, elegant jewlery, etc. When I go dancing, I usually go swing dancing for a number of reasons – I love the music of the 30s and 40s, I love the dancing, and I love that it’s NOT a meat market. There is a politeness that is a part of the whole swingdance culture that is really wonderful.
That doesn’t mean people don’t meet and date or even just hook up there, but there is a non-sleaze factor as part of the environment.
So, just because a woman dresses up in an outfit that is considered by men to be sexy, doesn’t mean it’s a signal that they want casual sex.
Alot of fashion, which many women including myself, really enjoy, is most certainly provacative. If you look at my blogroll you’ll see the website for one of my favorite designers, Selma Karaca, who is also one of my best friends. Her dresses are very flattering to women’s figures and some of them are quite sexy.
But, having been in her loft studio in Brooklyn and having been to her shows and having worn several of her gorgeous dresses, while some of them are quite sexy, it’s more about a woman enjoying her own body and fashion and feeling elegant and dressed up and it’s not about inviting men to hit on you. At least that’s not what it’s about for me or women I know.
I can’t speak to the makeup thing, because I don’t wear makeup and neither do most of my friends. Makeup is very much an icky annoyance for most women I know in NYC – but not all. I do have friends who enjoy makeup, but on a very minimal scale.
I personally only use sunscreen and chaptsick.
And, I guess in nyc the only women I see dressed like hookers are actual hookers, which is a completely different story.
I don’t know if that helps with understanding or not, but I wanted to reply to Clarence’s comment.
I enjoy dressing up when I go out for certain things and it’s for my own enjoyment.
Denise”
*Back to Obsidian*: Interestingly enough, I wrote about this very same subject on my blog, about how and why Value Judgments being made is an important practice (and carries EP roots). And, as a Black Man, I can assure you that I have a heck of alot more to worry about then whether one’s nipples are making too much of a raised nail out of themselves.
The simple facts of life is that, judgments, matter. They can make the difference between one getting or not getting a job, housing, schooling, loans or mortages, and in my case, whether I get shot or not – by cops and other Black Men alike.
Which is why I give a great deal of care and time to my appearance, because – and I’ve actually conducted social experiments of my own on this score – being dressed neatly in a suit and time carries me a heck of alot further than being dressed like a proverbial thug. I don’t like that; actually, on certain days, I loathe it; but it is what it is, and there’s not much use in tilting at windmills about the matter. I’ve got a life to live, and I simply get on with it.
You, on the other hand, can and will do what you wish. But if I were you, I’d put just a weebit more thought into how I coiff myself before heading out into the streets of New York.
I’m just saying.
Stay tuned, I’ll post that piece I wrote about in a minute…
The Obsidian
« Nice Guys CAN Finish First-IF They Have GAMEThrowing Down The Gauntlet: The Lady Raine-Obsidian Great “Game” Debate.. »Value Judgments Are Real, Necessary, & Part Of Human Nature
A perennial topic in our Body Politic is the idea of “freedom of expression”, in this case, with regard to how we present ourselves to the wider world in terms of dress and appearance. Perhaps some of the biggest supporters of the notion that not only should we be allowed to present ourselves any way that we wish, but that there shouldn’t be any judgments of same by anyone, are, as a group, Women. We’ve all heard the defiant refrain about a Woman should be able to walk down the street nude, with no repercussions from the act. Such a statement, while tenable perhaps in theory, is in the realworld, horrendous in actual fact. It is so because it turns a blind eye to the reality of Human Nature, and it is Human to make *value judgments* about each other-based on how we act, speak, dress (or undress), and associate with.
Of course, Human Nature has its foibles and excesses, and to be sure, Women as a group have borne the brunt of much of this down through the years. But that’s a separate issue from the simple fact that we, arguably the most social animals on the planet, care deeply about the kinds of signals we send out into the larger environment, and that said signals carry with them consequences, big and small.
The real issue, insofar as Women taken as group is concerned, is that they don’t want to be *shamed* for behavior or perceptions that don’t sit well with the society at large; as I’ve noted in my previous post, Gamesmen understand well WHY Women are very much into the idea that one shouldn’t be “judged” for their behaviors. But, much to their chagrin, many Women find, that despite polite society ostensible “progressiveness”, Women can and will be judged rather harshly if she’s been found out to have presented herself in a questionable way, and shouts of “sexism” and/or “misogyny” are at this late stage of the sociopolitical game, are really getting old.
Since I find that whenever I bring up just about any topic that addresses Women in any way someone will bring up Black folks as a kind of retort, I think the following recent news item will add a bit of illumination to the discussion:
Yesterday while watching Fox News, they gave a report about how the country’s HBCUs (Historically Black Colleges & Universities) were beginning to mandate dress codes, particularly for its Black Male students; among the prohibitions were no more wearing saggy or drooping jeans, doorags, “grillz” (gold teeth) and the like. Morehouse, a traditionally all Black Male college in Atlanta, and alma mater of the late great Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., seems to have lead the effort in this regard back in Oct of this year, and has been at the epicenter of this “debate”-I phrase it this way, since I find it deeply ironic that MLK’s alma mater has had to codify into “law” rules against its students looking like Thugs-moreover, I see it as a real nadir in Black American mores that such a thing even has to be “debated”.
Around the same time that Morehouse came forth with its dress code, Conservative talk radio personality Rush Limbaugh came under intense scrutiny because of his bid to purchase the St. Louis Rams football team; a major part of the reason why he was denied admittance into the NFL Owner’s Club, was because of his politically incorrect comments about many of its Black players, among them, that he couldn’t tell the difference between them and members of the Bloods & Crips street gangs, on the basis of how they looked (and in many instances, acted). While there was much squawking about Limbaugh’s comments, I submit that there was so much flailing of arms BECAUSE WHAT HE SAID WAS TRUE.
Indeed, part of the reason WHY Tiger Woods’ peccadilloes is making so much fodder for the news and rumor mills, was BECAUSE of his squeaky clean image as a Black (or at least, partially Black, according to him) Sportsman, at a time when both the NBA and the NFL had an ever increasing image problem with regard to its Black Male players-to such an extent, that finally David Stern, commissioner of the NBA, has to do basically the same thing that Morehouse and other HBCUs did, institute, for grown Men, an offcourt dress code. The general, though never openly stated in polite company consensus among a heck of a lot of Whites-and a not insignificant number of Blacks-is that the NBA and NFL is chockfull of Gangsta Thug Niggas-and all the tats, braids, baggy clothes, big SUVS and “Jesus pieces” worn by many of the players, don’t do much to allay these concerns by the wider (and often, paying public).
The other night, at a Christmas dinner I was invited to, we discussed these and related issues. When asked how I viewed it, I simply noted that at the end of the day, I, as a Black Man, have to be pragmatic, IF my goal is to make it back home in one piece. Because, I explained to them, as a Black Male, this is far more than a more abstract academic point of debate for me-how I present myself to the larger world carries with it real consequences. It can make the difference between whether I get hired (or fired!); whether I get a bank loan or not; whether I get a house or apartment; or whether I go to jail or not-indeed, looking the way wrong way could get me shot and killed, by a really nervous cop who’s not gonna bother to make distinctions out there on the bricks between the good and not so good Nigras-because, he’s trying to go home, too.
I told my dinner hosts that a week previous, my Lady and I went to the local mall to do a bit of Christmas shopping; it was very cold that day, and she wanted to buy me a “skullie”. I took great pains to get one that differentiated me from the “hoodrats”, and made light of it in humorous terms-but the point was made, and she understood it as well-because Black Men have the perception of being up to no good, the simple fact of life is that guys like me have to give a bit of forethought about what clothing to buy and wear. Because there are clear and real, consequences for putting out the wrong kind of perceptions. And again, this just ain’t a “racial” thing, because LOTS of Blacks think the same way as Whites-recall what the Rev. Jesse Jackson once said about being somewhere dark and hearing footsteps behind him.
At some point, arid academic “debates” and infantile cries of “expression” have to give way to hardheaded reality-which is, that people can and will judge you, based on how you present yourself to the world. For Black Men like me, it means I have to give a good bit of thought as to how I want to be seen and perceived by others regardless of color; for Women, it means whether they want to be treated as Ladies or “Ladies of the Evening”-or worse. To pretend otherwise, is not to approach the world as an adult-but as a child.
“Now these ladies is lookin pretty from city to city
I refined a few I met, around the country
The nitty gritty, it’s all reality, no question
Actual fact like tight jeans cause yeast infections
And sisters with good minds, get no respect when
Their ass is all hangin out, playin the bar section
of the club shake what your mama gave ya, back to the lab
I drop the truth, cause rhyming is more than just my craft
Or a way to get ass, or fast cash, or blasted
Black women, make sure you’re respected
When niggaz is kickin that old off the wall shit, let em know from jump: “Dead it”, you’re not ignorant
Knowledge wisdom understanding is the key to wealth
Put some clothes on that ass if you respect yourself
Chorus:
With those hooker type wears hon you’re, playin yaself
With those skin tight jeans baby you’re, playin yaself
Everything all exposed you’re, playin yaself
You’re, playin yaself, you’re, playin yaself
Everything all exposed you’re, playin yaself
With those skin tight jeans baby you’re, playin yaself
With those hooker type wears hon you’re, playin yaself
You’re, playin yaself, you’re, playin yaself”
-Ya Playin’ Yaself, by Jeru The Damaja
Now adjourn your childish asses…
The Obsidian
Obs, regarding how we dress and the judgements people make on us, how do you suggest that women dress? Should we wear super baggy clothes so that nobody can tell what our shapes are at all? Should we not fix our hair or wear any makeup whatsoever? Not pluck our eyebrows or wax our fine hair moustaches? Should we go out looking as plain and un-attractive as possible so that men do not get inconveniently attracted to us and aroused?
You know as well as anyone that if women en masse would start doing this, men would be complaining even more than they do now about the dearth of good looking women in the United States.
LR EDIT: Yeah, I cannot believe that men TRULY believe that women do “basic grooming” things like shaving our legs, wearing make up, doing our hair, and dressing in clothes that flatter us to “land a man” or “impress men”. Do they REALLY fucking believe that???
Like I said, if that were the case then virgins, married women, and widows would ALL be disgusting, unshaven, unattractive, and ungroomed in baggy unflattering clothing because hey….they’re not “single and looking to fuck” right?
Wow, these guys are the “Mayors of Self-Absorptionville” and the “Dukes of Delusion” as well.
LR, please notice that here
http://ladyraine.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/exposed-roissy-in-dc/#comment-2481
Obsidian copied and pasted AN ENTIRE BLOG ENTRY from his blog. Maybe there should be a policy against this sort of thing on your blog. People come here to read YOUR blogs and SHORT comments from the commentariat, NOT other people’s ENTIRE BLOGS. Obsidian needs to learn how to copy and paste LINKS, not entire blogs.
It’s rude and inconsiderate.
LR EDIT: Yes, it is Desi I think I’ve practically been like Mother Teresa in being understanding and patient with Obsidian’s nonsense and have also given him about three thousand warnings about the advertising here.
Especially considering he censors and moderates peoples actual ANSWERS to his advertisements on his OWN blog. I will just start randomly deleting a few of his posts here and there every time he does stuff like that until he catches on.
Tokien is looking at straight up deletion though because I have warned him three times about posting “unintelligible SPAM” that even people who speak the English language cannot decipher. Why do these people have to force my hand and act like children when I try to be really really fucking liberal about that stuff??? Grrrrrrr.
Ms. Romano,
Replying to your “ethical issues with Game” as follows:
DR: Ethical Issues with “Game”:
In The Mystery Method: How to Get Beautiful Women into Bed, there are a number of ethical problems:
1. The subtitle is predatory and completely focused on using women sexually.
OBS: How is it “predatory”? And what is wrong with wanting sex from what one deems beautiful Women? Please explain?
2. There are completely false statements made throughout the book as though they are scientific fact, when they are not:
OBS: Please prove this?
“Nature will unapologetically weed your genes out of existence if you don’t take action and learn how to attract women now.” (p.xiiii).
OBS: True.
“This is why I am privileged to share with you more than ten years of experience in the science of social dynamics and the art of the cold-approach pickup.” (p. xiv).
OBS: Uh huh…
Casanova, who allegedly “enjoyed erotic liaisons with 122 women during his travels across Europe” is celebrated. (p. 1).
OBS: As I recall, not many of the Women involved complained very much…
Women’s “value” is entirely based on physical appearance and is rated on a degrading numeric scale. (throughout the book).
OBS: Both the fashion world and Hollywood are far and away much more brutal in this regard. Should we ban them also? Aren’t they abusive?
Despite Mystery’s “Statement of Ethics”: “Mystery protégés focus on attraction first, not seduction. Ethically, they are attractors, not seducers” (p. 44), the book contradicts this by routinely advising men how and when to seduce women. Mystery includes the definition of Seduction:
1. To persuade to disobedience or disloyalty
2. To lead astray usually by persuasion or false promises
3. To carry out the physical seduction of; entice to sexual intercourse
OBS: The it would seem that the very definition of the term “seduction” itself is problematic, yes Ms. Romano? Are we now to lobby for its being banned from all dictionaries and the like?
The marketing of “Game” to men is unethical in that terms such as “algorithms”, “the science of courtship”, “dating science”, dynamic social homeostasis”, “rewiring her attraction circuitry”, “dynamic social intuition”, “replication value”, “survival value”, “backward rationalize”, “anti-slut defense”, “decimal rating scale”, “calibration”, “internalization”, “negative replication value”,
OBS: How are the very mention of any of these terms “unethical” in their use and marketing to Men? Please explain?
Actual scientific theories such as Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs (check this), “pre-selection”, and Evolutionary Psychology are distorted and misused.
OBS: In what way? Please explain?
Non-critical use and validation of the term “slut” (p. 28).
OBS: Actually, the term is used by Women far and away more than by Men. Of course, the question of whether the term not matter who uses it is indeed valid or not, based on the accepted definitions of the term line up with the real or perceived behaviors of the Woman in question.
“She does have a boyfriend and she is willing to cheat on him (they often are if your game is tight), but she doesn’t want to feel guilty about it. This is her rationalization process at work. As long as she mentions the boyfriend before sleeping with you, she can rationalize to herself that it was your fault. Sure, she might regret it later, but that won’t necessarily stop her from cheating.” (p. 36).
OBS: True. How many Women cheat on their boyfriends, Ms. Romano? Are you suggesting that no Woman ever does this, and if so, what peer reviewed clinical studies do you have that you can refer us all to, please? *Disclaimer* – I have not, and would not, knowingly get with a Woman who has a boyfriend, husband, etc.
“Emotions are circuits in the brain that judge value and create motivation. They are designed to keep you alive and to replicate your genes. (p. 37).
OBS: If you disagree with this statement, please explain why?
“What a woman likes or says she likes, is not necessarily what she responds to emotionally (and thus sexually). (p. 37).
OBS: True.
“All women have a powerful interruption system knows as “anti-slut defense” or ASD. When you play solid game, you will be able to escalate smoothly without triggering a woman’s anti-slut defense”. (p. 38).
OBS: True.
“A woman often won’t do anything that makes her feel responsible for the escalation – she needs plausible deniability. The Venusian artist must take responsibility to make things happen and act with moxie”. (p. 38).
OBS: Nine times out of ten, true.
“Don’t act as if things are a big deal. Just repeat the words “no problem” in your head until you really believe it. No matter what happens, it’s no big deal. (p. 38).
OBS: What’s the “abuse” in this statement? Please explain?
“As you proceed with the pickup, keep the woman just inside that window between revalidation and rejection. She must be baited to chase in small increments, just like a cat with a string.”. (p. 38).
OBS: Uh-huh. Go on…
Women are referred to as “targets”, “girls”,
OBS: Same as the term “Rules Girls”, “You Go Girl!”, and so on, terms coined and used almost entirely by WOMEN themselves. So, you were saying…?
“Attraction is not a choice” – David DeAngleo (p. 44).
OBS: I would agree with this statement.
“In the same way that we men automatically feel an overwhelming attraction toward any Sports Illustrated swimsuit model because she turns on all our switches, women can be made to feel exactly the same way toward us if we only devise a clever method for systematically turning on all their attraction switches.” (p. 45).
OBS: Don’t see much problem with that there.
“the majority of a man’s attraction switches are set to respond to…p.45 check this!
OBS: You were saying…?
“Demonstrating that you have women interested in you, in this direct manner, is only one of many ways to trigger the same sexual selection switch. There are other ways. You can also wear women’s perfume. When a woman asks what you are wearing say, “Nothing.” Smell your collar and then, as if remembering, say, “Ah,” and smile to yourself.
OBS: What Mystery is speaking to here is a variation on the principle of Preselection, and I’ve written about this on my blog as well.
Another way to flip her preselection switch is to have a lipstick kiss on your cheek. In the exact same way you feel greater attraction for a woman if she has an appealing hip-to-waist ratio, a woman will feel toward you because of that all-important lipstick kiss”. (p. 46)
Seduction is mutual: p 47
OBS: I’ve never done this myself, so can’t comment one way or the other.
“it takes an average of 5 to 10 hours of cumulative comfort building before a woman is ready for seduction. (p. 54).
OBS: This is correct; it is known as the Seven Hour Rule.
The Obsidian
Bag Lady,
First off, my blogpost directly spoke to Ms. Romano’s “nipple” remarks, and was not in any way meant to spam the board.
Second, it is not my business or mission to tell Women HOW they should dress; only informing them that in all things in life, there are consequences. If the Women so involved feel that they can handle said social consequences for their choices, so be it. All I’m saying is that there ARE conseqeuences.
Choose wisely.
The Obsidian
LR EDIT: No, shit Obsidian….we are not saying that a woman should wear a leather catsuit and go strolling through the ghetto at 2am shouting “I love cock!”
We are saying that make-up is essentially the same as a man “grooming” himself (such as shaving) and is NOT an indicator of “looking to fuck” and also showing SOME skin (a little cleavage, a little leg) is ALSO not indicative of “looking to fuck”. That is how most normal young men whether married or single dress. Men who assume any woman who looks “attractive and well groomed” are out looking for a date or a one night stand are DELUSIONAL in every way.
I cannot believe that there was an argument about why women do those things. There seems to be a lot of men who think that only women who are looking to pick up a man care about their appearance. I’ve been wearing make up since the 4th grade. Was I looking to fuck back then too?
That was the only argument we were having about that.
And regardless, even if a woman is at bar wearing a mini skirt and a halter top….if you approach her and she rejects you or you advance her physically and she rejects that then any sensible man leaves her alone. I think anyone with common social skills understands that.
OBS: “How is it “predatory”? And what is wrong with wanting sex from what one deems beautiful Women? Please explain?”
There it is. The modern “male entitlement complex”.
Give me one good reason why any woman “owes” you sex and that you are in a position to decide when it’s fine to “prey” on her and use LMR techniques to get what you want??
There is nothing wrong with a man “wanting/liking sex with beautiful women” but I’d also like a lifetime supply of Gold Bars and Magic Ponies, it doesn’t mean that I deserve it, are entitled to it, or that it’s ever going to happen.
PUA’s seem to have this attitude like they have a RIGHT to have sex with pretty girls without putting in any of the legwork such as taking her on an appropriate amount of “traditional” dates (ie: courtship) and to even feel entitled to use LMR (last minute resistance) techniques to PUSH the woman to get sexual with you.
Why do you all seem to feel like just because “you want it” that you deserve it? Or have a right to it? Or should be allowed to use sleazy means to get it while everyone else tries to be honorable and respectful people?
Why should ANY woman (and especially “a beautiful woman”) want to give sex to a man who hasn’t earned it?
You aren’t given a driver’s license without earning it, are you? No.
This attitude by men like you and apparently other PUA’s is why our young boys are growing up to be lazy, entitled whiners who do nothing to earn anything and feel that they deserve the “best” just because they showed up.
I would say that any woman who doesn’t EXPECT several traditional dates from a man to get past the “kissing” point is selling herself short. Game wants men to believe those women are somehow undeserving of exercising caution and should be pushed to give herself to you….for no reason at all.
What ever happened to men who put in the legwork and respect and adore women to earn the rights to her mind, life, body, heart etc??? I don’t get why these guys think “being nice” and failing means that now it’s fine to use “any means necessary” to get what they want from women.
Get over yourselves and do things the honorable way like everyone else does.
tolkin – i’m so glad you raised the issue of “rich husbands”.
In my new post on my blog, I just explored the many hypocritcal contradicitons I’ve found in my review of more than 50 MRA sites.
One of those is that most MRAs and PUAs seem to believe that men’s “natural” drive is to seek out the most beautiful women they can – and this is celebrated as a right of men by the MRAs and PUAs.
They also believe that women’s “natural” drive is to seek out men who can best provide for them. However, amazingly, this is NOT celebrated by the PUAs and MRAs – rather it is CURSED as “gold-digging”.
So, Beauty-Digging is men’s right and should be celebrated but women’s “gold-digging” is vilified and not a right.
In fact the entire premise of the PUA industry is to help men who do not meet the standards of women to intentionally use various methods to override women’s decision-making and boundary-setting abilities.
I personally don’t think these theories are true any longer. In case you haven’t noticed humans and the world we live in have evolved a great deal from when we all lived in caves.
Women don’t need men to be good providers anymore. We can earn our own money. Women choose to be with men for a variety of reasons, but to say all women choose men based on money or status is ridiculous and false.
But, back to the MRA and PUA theories, what do you have to say about the male aspect of those theories being celebrated and the female aspect of them being vilified?
I would think that if that was the “natural” way, you’d all want it to go that way.
But you don’t. Because as Chic Noir’s poignant post made clear – you think you’re entitled to get whatever you want easily, even through cheating, which is what game is.
It’s dishonest, deceptive and immature.
Obsidian:
Have you forgotten that it was once scandalous for a woman’s ankle to be showing?
Have you forgotten that it was once considered too sexy for a knee to show?
It is normal for nipples to protrude. If certain men refuse to learn that fact, that is their problem.
GET OVER THE NIPPLE. It means nothing.
Just as arousal does NOT mean consent; a protruding nipple does NOT mean arousal.
The problem is not anyone’s arousal or anyone’s nipples but that men like you REFUSE to learn anything beyond your precious attachment to your distorted – and thus incorrect – theories of Evolutionary Psychology.
LEARN REAL FACTS.
Please. Evolve.
Denise
A woman should not have to cover her natural anatomy just because there are men who are stupid enough to believe a nipple means something that it doesn’t mean.
Now you’ve been taught this. Since you’re SO intent on driving as much traffic to your blog as you can – perhaps you could use the space to educate the men who read it that protruding nipples do not indicate arousal or interest.
Also, you could teach about how STDs are transmitted, that infidelity is abuse in every way, and that arousal is not consent.
The lack of basic knowledge among the men on these MRA and PUA sites is alarming.
Obsidian has already posted on his blog that he want all provocative pictures of women to be removed from the internet. This is a strange point of view for a guy.
This whole idea that women that are sexy or wear makeup want to have sex with all the guys is strange as well and it’s widespread among MRAs. Most of the porn business is based on the idea that women want to be seen and guys want to watch them. If a woman get naked on a web site she doesn’t want that all the guys that watch her have sex with her and the guys that pay to see her nude don’t expect have sex with her as well – in the porn business they say very often that women are biological exhibitionists and men are voyeurs. Furthermore many guys will want their girlfriend to be sexy and wear makeup – if a woman has breast implants, her boyfriend will often want her show cleavage. These guys don’t want that because they want guys to hit on their girlfriends, they want to impress other guys.
Maybe these MRAs/PUAs are like that because they can’t get any. Guys that can have has much sex as they want with their girlfriend don’t care if other women are sexy.
Mr. No More Nice Guy,
I have never said anything of the sort; please provide the direct quote by me, please? Thank you.
The Obsidian
Ms. Romano,
All I was saying is that people can, do and WILL make value judgments based on how you choose to present yourself to the world. Period. Dot.
I never gave a personal opinion on your or anyone else’s nipples; only saying that value judgments about you will be based on them, if you choose to go about in polite society with them protruding out of your shirt as if you were the Incredible Hulk. It is absolutely foolish for you to think that people can’t make judgments about you; they can, they will. If you’re built like that to handle the consequences, then go on ahead with your bad self; if not –
COVER YOUR NIPPLES UP.
The.
End.
The Obsidian
Ms. Romano,
Perhaps you should learn to respect the mission of those who choose to blog on what they deem important. You deem it important for PUAs and MRAs to go to Sex Education class; I don’t. That’s not my concern, it’s yours.
Moreover, you haven’t addressed anything I said in my reply to you. I clearly said that I, as a Black Man, have to take great pains not to give the impression that I am not a stereotypical Black up to no good. It’s not fair, but adults understand that not much about it is, and that we get on with it.
Good luck with getting the Neg banned.
The Obsidian
Ms. Romano,
I know you was addressing Mr. Tolkien, but if I may…
DR: tolkin – i’m so glad you raised the issue of “rich husbands”.
DR: In my new post on my blog, I just explored the many hypocritcal contradicitons I’ve found in my review of more than 50 MRA sites.
OBS: I’ll be cheking out said post and your review shortly.
DR: One of those is that most MRAs and PUAs seem to believe that men’s “natural” drive is to seek out the most beautiful women they can – and this is celebrated as a right of men by the MRAs and PUAs.
OBS: Beauty of the Human Female is of utmost importance to Human Males. Any first year Evo Psych major understands this.
DR: They also believe that women’s “natural” drive is to seek out men who can best provide for them. However, amazingly, this is NOT celebrated by the PUAs and MRAs – rather it is CURSED as “gold-digging”.
OBS: I would like to ask how do you, and for that matter “MRAs”, define the term “gold digging”? My understanding of the term is one where there is inherent fraud and deception going on, but I could be wrong. Kanye West had a song with the same name. Perhaps we can examine the lyrics?
DR: So, Beauty-Digging is men’s right and should be celebrated but women’s “gold-digging” is vilified and not a right.
OBS: I suppose so. *shrugs*
DR: In fact the entire premise of the PUA industry is to help men who do not meet the standards of women to intentionally use various methods to override women’s decision-making and boundary-setting abilities.
OBS: Just like the multi-billion dollar per annum Beauty Industry is built on the premise to help Women who would not ordinarily meet the standards of Men to intentionally override a Man’s decision-making and boundary-setting abilities. Does this mean that you’ll be taking on Revlon and Max Factor after you’re done with your MRA/PUA Witch Hunts?
DR: I personally don’t think these theories are true any longer. In case you haven’t noticed humans and the world we live in have evolved a great deal from when we all lived in caves.
OBS: And in case you haven’t noticed, human beings haven’t fundamentally changed, from an Evo-POV, in at least oh, 10K years or so?
DR: Women don’t need men to be good providers anymore. We can earn our own money. Women choose to be with men for a variety of reasons, but to say all women choose men based on money or status is ridiculous and false.
OBS: Partially accurate; Women do indeed earn their own money, and do indeed choose Men for a number of reasons. What is inaccurate, is to suggest that a Man’s social status, real or perceived, isn’t among the considerations a Woman has.
DR: But, back to the MRA and PUA theories, what do you have to say about the male aspect of those theories being celebrated and the female aspect of them being vilified?
OBS: I am aware of no such PUA teaching that indeed “vilifies” “gold diggers”; please provide direct quote, page number and author? Thanks. As for MRAs, as I am not one, I choose to decline to attempt to speak for them.
I would think that if that was the “natural” way, you’d all want it to go that way.
DR: But you don’t. Because as Chic Noir’s poignant post made clear – you think you’re entitled to get whatever you want easily, even through cheating, which is what game is.
OBS: It can be argued, that Women have a much stronger sense of entitlement than do Men, in aggregate, in our time today. And don’t even get us started on the many manipulative things Women do to meet their objectives. Irregardless as to rationales.
DR: It’s dishonest, deceptive and immature.
OBS: Says who? You haven’t even given specific page numbers and the like yet.
Good luck with getting the Neg banned.
The Obsidian
What you’re saying is a statement about issues of power and control based in ignorance.
Do you think that people of color should make themselves appear as White as possible to help alleviate the judgments that ignorant racists might make of them?
Since you’re so fond of EVOLUTION, I suggest you and anyone who would make an ignorant judgment about protruding nipples, begin to participate in it.
Lady Raine’s blog has provided some very important services over the last weeks. Here is what we’ve learned (among other things):
1. STDs are more easily transmitted to women than to men due to anatomical differences.
2. Condoms do not protect against all STDs.
3. Holding a woman’s mouth closed and forcing her to swallow ejaculate IS sexual and physial assault.
4. http://www.spr.org/pdf/Rape%20by%20Fraud.pdf – The use of Coercion, Seduction, and Misreprsentation CAN result in Rape charges.
5. Protruding Nipples do not necessarily indicate arousal and are, in fact, normal anatomy for a significant percentage of women.
6. Arousal does NOT indicate consent.
7. Hypnosis and NLP can be used effectively on people without their knowledge and consent and IS unethical and can result in sexual assault charges.
8. There are just as many healthy and positive ways to stimulate a woman to be attracted to men as there are negative, coercive and abusive ways.
9. Game is effective AND it is also unethical.
10. Game claims to be based on science, but is NOT and is taught by unqualiifed people who must used legal disclaimers to remind people that they aren’t qualiifed and are merely entertainers.
11. Game games men into spending alot of money on unethical techniques that could get them into a great deal of trouble and doesn’t even warn these men about that.
12. Game is based on lies about the nature of all women and all men.
and so many more.
Do read the rape statutes.
Denise
Obsidian I think what Denise was trying to say is that is a subculture of women was using exactly the same mental/behavioral conditioning to intentionally “gold dig” or steal/extort money from any man she wants to??
So long as it “works” and he doesn’t have any knowledge or “complaints” about it?
Pua’s and especially MRA’s crucify any woman who so much as uses plain old regular manipulation to “extort” men’s money/resources.
Let alone using “mind control” techniques to do it on top of that! They’d want hangings and crucifixtions all around!
Men are using the same memtality to extort sex and access to a womans body (resources).
There is no difference.
So I assume you are totally fine with that?
O –
1. read this:
http://www.spr.org/pdf/Rape%20by%20Fraud.pdf
2. nobody wants to ban the neg.
3. I’ve responded to everything you said in your letter.
4. When someone’s blog mission is harmful to others and encourages the kinds of crimes outlined in the link above, it is no longer something to be respected.
5. I think your blog is idiotic and I don’t agree with you on most things, but there’s nothing criminal about it, so I don’t really care.
6. Roissy’s blog is different. There is a REASON he has deleted certain ponts. It is because people of prinicple were outraged by the things on his blog – not because they disagreed with them – but because they violated policies and laws.
7. You seem to confuse opinions and freedoms with laws. Big difference.
o-
“irregardless” is not a word.
I’ve listed page numbers of mystery’s book which more than prove what i’m saying.
FYI: your misuse of distorted EP theories proves nothing. We’ll be hearing from some professionals EPs soon to teach you all that.
I’ve already addressed all of these concepts on this blog. I’m tired of your lack of reading comprehension.
Obsidian you have literally crawled up our asses (Denise and I) for weeks now to post exactly what our problem with Game is…..and your request for Denise to answer your “Open Letter” in detail.
I have also provided entire posts encouraging facts and opinions on the Psych behind Game and such…..I even provided exactly what Pavlovian Methods Game is using that I have a probleem with. It is a well known and proved method.
We presented specifics aspects of Game, Denise even cited sources and page numbers of “Mystery” and others (Lovesystems as well).
All things you asked have been answered in a clear and factual manner with credible sources to back it up.
So now instead of addressing what you have been demanding/begging to know……you offer nothing but “so what we are entitled to beautiful woman” and “nah uh” and “so what?!” and “well it works”.
I don’t understand what your problem is and why you even bother asking questions or even having a conversation with anyone but yourself.
Now you’re going to wildly throw in the fact that you’re Black?! So fucking what? What does that have to do with anything on any of my blog post….EVER….including this one?!
“irregardless” is not a word.
Haaa hahah!! I laughed when I saw this because people saying “irregardless” or worse “irregardlessly” is so wrong that it makes my brain hurt.
(Ir-regardless: would Gramatically mean “to disregard something that has already been discarded”. Its not a word in the English Language, kids so please stop using it!!!)
***Actung!! Everyone!***
Whatever the problem was with some comments going to SPAM right away for no apprent reason is fixed and seems to be working normally for a day now.
I didn’t change any settings and the problem magically corrected itself (I checked no hacker activity and no security issues) so I guess word press had a bad day here at Lady Raine’s Castle, but either way….itks fixed!
Please tell me if you note other problems that I’m not aware of, but I haven’t found any others thus far.
Thanks,
LR
Lady Raine said:
Wait, where? If a man wants to have sex with beautiful women, what makes you think that he has an attitude of entitlement?
That’s what Obsidian said. I can understand why you think PUAs who use certain LMR tactics might have an attitude of entitlement, but I don’t think Obsidian (or the subtitle of Mystery’s book) exhibit that attitude.
I would contend that this is exactly how most men, PUAs or not, view sex with beautiful women.
Again, this is you projecting your preferences as the right way to go about relationships. What about women who don’t even like traditional dates and consider them awkward? Traditional dating is practically dead at college.
Here I somewhat agree, for certain LMR tactics. For instance, the “when she objects, verbally agree but keep going physically” idea is problematic. With this tactic, PUAs would understand that they should stop if they meet a strong objection, or if the woman is getting turned off. But still, I think that idea, in that particular form, just carries too much potential for harm. (Though note: without some sort of survey of PUAs, we have no clue what percentage of PUAs believe in this tactic or use it.)
But I don’t think it’s necessarily coming from an entitlement mentality. Rather, it an attempt to get around token resistance. However, I’m skeptical of whether women really put token resistance at the rate that some PUAs seem to think.
They shouldn’t. And I don’t think PUAs believe otherwise. PUAs are not looking to bypass women’s criteria, they are looking to fulfill women’s criteria. And by “women’s criteria,” I mean women’s actual criteria, not necessarily women’s stated criteria. (Even stuff like LMR tactics fall into this category.)
Are PUAs completely right about women’s criteria? No. But there actually does turn out to be bona fide scientific evidence suggesting a mismatch between women’s stated preferences and actual choices (men’s don’t always match either, and none of these findings should be at all surprising to anyone who has taken Psych 1).
To understand what PUAs are doing, you need to try to look at things through their worldview. PUAs are trying to fulfill what they believe women’s actual criteria to be. They just have a different view of women’s actual criteria than you do. And frankly, I think both PUAs and you are wrong and have an overgeneralized view.
I said:
To make this a little clearer: my view of PUAs is that they are looking to fulfill their perception of women’s actual criteria.
Hugh,
Thanks for your comments, as always.
I AM interested in communicating with you, Daran and others who have shown us that we can get some where by being civil, honest, and fair with each other even in disagreement so we can continue to find more common ground.
So, I am asking you to hear or on my blog or on yours – wherever you’d like – to tell me/us more about this mismatch (and I will read the links you’ve sent but now right now) so we can better understand where you’re coming from.
I will also say that I can only speak for myself and other women I know that I find the whole PUA premises to be complete foreign b/c I see no evidence of this in my own life.
My own experience is that people marry for love and that looks and money are not their priorities.
I also do not know any women who rate men on a number scale, and I never have.
Speaking for myself, I’ve had men in my life who were:
Drummer in a band
lawyer
doctor
starving artist
architect
independently wealthy mutli-millionaire (who I chose to leave)
computer programmer
financial planner
All of varying looks – b/c it’s not about the looks or the money for me or people I know. Sure there needs to be attraction and compatibility but those are what people I know and I focus on.
Thinking of couples who are my dearest friends I know:
Unemployed blogger man married to counselor woman
Painter/security guard man married to administrator woman
salesman man married to social worker woman
social worker man marreid to social worker woman
maitre D man married to collections specialist woman
Union rep man married to homemaker/mother woman
Scientitst man married to scientist woman
Teacher man married to agent woman
Sound /Tech designer man married to stage manager woman
military man married to teacher woman
aircraft safety inspector married to accounts payable woman
investigator man married to reporter woman
Salesman man married to homemaker/teacher woman
I admit this may not be useful b/c I can only guess as how you or anyone else would rank these people on a looks scale – and i’m not comfortable doing that to people I know and love here.
But I will say this – I have noticed and also read about a tendency for humans to have successful pairings with those of similar perceived attractiveness levels, and this makes alot of sense to me actually.
On the other hand, I know that for many people I know, once they’ve fallen in love with someone, they see that person as goregous no matter what.
Denise
I hear what you’re saying Hugh.
You’re saying that no matter what we think is true about our own experiences and those we know – that you have had experiences where there is a discrepancy between what women say they want and what you see them actually wanting.
I do want to learn more about this. I also have some questions: is this true of a diverse sample of women or just the “9″s and “10″s?
I ask because I do wonder if there is another explanation for this behavior and if the cause of the behavior is being misinterpreted.
Thanks
Denise
Hugh–
The reason I stated it in that way was in answer to when Obsidian offered “well men want to sleep with as many beautiful women as he can” to justify my saying that many PUA’s and some Seduction techniques are teaching manipulative methods with no boundaries at all.
Basically in that context he was saying that by any means necessary to fulfill a man’s desire to “acquire many beautiful women to have sex with”.
I think that your way of thinking and clear ethical boundaries is the first time I’ve seen a person who studies Game actually show respect for those boundaries and ethical lines.
But I also think you know that many of the most popular Game and PUA resources and material (whether being sold or free in blog form) are remorseless and encourage a “by any means necessary” attitude.
Even guys that a lot of men follow like “Mystery” and Strauss don’t have clear ethical, moral, or even legal boundaries and facts on what they are presenting and how it is to be used.
There are many suspicious ties to Misogynistic MRA’s sites and affiliations as well on the “free PUA” info side of things and these guys have even less credentials to be peddling sensitive “human mind dabbling” with misinformed attitudes about women and even the Evolutionary Psych they want to stake claim on.
I doubt you can argue that most normal-above average intelligence guys are looking to the many “questionable sources” and are not able to filter out the misogyny, abuse, intimidation elements.
One guy like you who has some clear and unwavering ethical lines that you have presented to us is a rarity in the literal sense of the word. So there’s ONE guy out of the 1,000s of remorseless players and Gurus and guys just getting into Game.
There’s some serious issues within the Seduction Community obviously and I’m sure you can see why I think its important to address and definitely is not alarmist on my (or denise’s) part.
What I’d like to see in an ideal world is men getting this advice by a professional Psychologist, and Evolutionary Psych, even a Counselor who specializes in romantic relationships…..anything at all!
That’s why I’ve stressed in previous older posts and comments here and there that men could just as easily learn some basic Profiling Techniques that work to understand and correctly interpret another HUMAN mind (I stress human since Seduction seems to think the female brain functions like an alien spaceship) and also to correctly and more easily interpret human behaviors, body language, stressors, and emotions etc.
Its no perfect science but even men learning that will have a better (educated) understanding of the people he interacts with on a daily basis (whther male, female, woman, child, boss, garbageman, etc) and will subsequently lead to having a better “instinct” toward what a certain woman might like, respond to, appreciate, be afraid of….etc
At least an example of an alternative like that one is something that is a Professional and credible tool in better understanding (and reacting) to others.
One could also use conditioning methods on themself. Or they could go to a professional for positive reinforcement techniques or even light hypnosis if they like!
There are of course a trillion different ways understanding actual proven Psychology and having reputable sources all over who can make sure your are using it properly and just as successfully to “better yourself” and make “romantic relationships” easier as well!
That is why I post the types of Psych (and its misuse) that I see because I don’t think most are aware of (or don’t care) about what they are internalizing and possibly misusing more often than not.
Hugh – do you think PUAs’ perceptions of women’s actual criteria are accurate?
Hugh–
The reason I stated it in that way was in answer to when Obsidian offered “well men want to sleep with as many beautiful women as he can” to justify my saying that many PUA’s and some Seduction techniques are teaching manipulative methods with no boundaries at all.
Basically in that context he was saying that by any means necessary to fulfill a man’s desire to “acquire many beautiful women to have sex with”.
I think that your way of thinking and clear ethical boundaries is the first time I’ve seen a person who studies Game actually show respect for those boundaries and ethical lines.
But I also think you know that many of the most popular Game and PUA resources and material (whether being sold or free in blog form) are remorseless and encourage a “by any means necessary” attitude.
Even guys that a lot of men follow like “Mystery” and Strauss don’t have clear ethical, moral, or even legal boundaries and facts on what they are presenting and how it is to be used.
There are many suspicious ties to Misogynistic MRA’s sites and affiliations as well on the “free PUA” info side of things and these guys have even less credentials to be peddling sensitive “human mind dabbling” with misinformed attitudes about women and even the Evolutionary Psych they want to stake claim on.
I doubt you can argue that most normal-above average intelligence guys are looking to the many “questionable sources” and are not able to filter out the misogyny, abuse, intimidation elements.
One guy like you who has some clear and unwavering ethical lines that you have presented to us is a rarity in the literal sense of the word. So there’s ONE guy out of the 1,000s of remorseless players and Gurus and guys just getting into Game.
There’s some serious issues within the Seduction Community obviously and I’m sure you can see why I think its important to address and definitely is not alarmist on my (or denise’s) part.
What I’d like to see in an ideal world is men getting this advice by a professional Psychologist, and Evolutionary Psych, even a Counselor who specializes in romantic relationships…..anything at all!
That’s why I’ve stressed in previous older posts and comments here and there that men could just as easily learn some basic Profiling Techniques that work to understand and correctly interpret another HUMAN mind (I stress human since Seduction seems to think the female brain functions like an alien spaceship) and also to correctly and more easily interpret human behaviors, body language, stressors, and emotions etc.
Its no perfect science but even men learning that will have a better (educated) understanding of the people he interacts with on a daily basis (whther male, female, woman, child, boss, garbageman, etc) and will subsequently lead to having a better “instinct” toward what a certain woman might like, respond to, appreciate, be afraid of….etc
At least an example of an alternative like that one is something that is a Professional and credible tool in better understanding (and reacting) to others.
One could also use conditioning methods on themself. Or they could go to a professional for positive reinforcement techniques or even light hypnosis if they like!
There are of course a trillion different ways understanding actual proven Psychology and having reputable sources all over who can make sure your are using it properly and just as successfully to “better yourself” and make “romantic relationships” easier as well!
That is why I post the types of Psych (and its misuse) that I see because I don’t think most are aware of (or don’t care) about what they are internalizing and possibly misusing more often than not.
Hugh–
The reason I stated it in that way was in answer to when Obsidian offered “well men want to sleep with as many beautiful women as he can” to justify my saying that many PUA’s and some Seduction techniques are teaching manipulative methods with no boundaries at all.
Basically in that context he was saying that by any means necessary to fulfill a man’s desire to “acquire many beautiful women to have sex with”.
I think that your way of thinking and clear ethical boundaries is the first time I’ve seen a person who studies Game actually show respect for those boundaries and ethical lines.
But I also think you know that many of the most popular Game and PUA resources and material (whether being sold or free in blog form) are remorseless and encourage a “by any means necessary” attitude.
Even guys that a lot of men follow like “Mystery” and Strauss don’t have clear ethical, moral, or even legal boundaries and facts on what they are presenting and how it is to be used.
There are many suspicious ties to Misogynistic MRA’s sites and affiliations as well on the “free PUA” info side of things and these guys have even less credentials to be peddling sensitive “human mind dabbling” with misinformed attitudes about women and even the Evolutionary Psych they want to stake claim on.
I doubt you can argue that most normal-above average intelligence guys are looking to the many “questionable sources” and are not able to filter out the misogyny, abuse, intimidation elements.
One guy like you who has some clear and unwavering ethical lines that you have presented to us is a rarity in the literal sense of the word. So there’s ONE guy out of the 1,000s of remorseless players and Gurus and guys just getting into Game.
There’s some serious issues within the Seduction Community obviously and I’m sure you can see why I think its important to address and definitely is not alarmist on my (or denise’s) part.
What I’d like to see in an ideal world is men getting this advice by a professional Psychologist, and Evolutionary Psych, even a Counselor who specializes in romantic relationships…..anything at all!
That’s why I’ve stressed in previous older posts and comments here and there that men could just as easily learn some basic Profiling Techniques that work to understand and correctly interpret another HUMAN mind (I stress human since Seduction seems to think the female brain functions like an alien spaceship) and also to correctly and more easily interpret human behaviors, body language, stressors, and emotions etc.
Its no perfect science but even men learning that will have a better (educated) understanding of the people he interacts with on a daily basis (whther male, female, woman, child, boss, garbageman, etc) and will subsequently lead to having a better “instinct” toward what a certain woman might like, respond to, appreciate, be afraid of….etc
At least an example of an alternative like that one is something that is a Professional and credible tool in better understanding (and reacting) to others.
One could also use conditioning methods on themself. Or they could go to a professional for positive reinforcement techniques or even light hypnosis if they like!
There are of course a trillion different ways understanding actual proven Psychology and having reputable sources all over who can make sure your are using it properly and just as successfully to “better yourself” and make “romantic relationships” easier as well!
That is why I post the types of Psych (and its misuse) that I see because I don’t think most are aware of (or don’t care) about what they are internalizing and possibly misusing more often than not.
Also, just an observation -
I’ve noticed that LR, Chic Noir, Desi FPUA, myself and other women in these discussions are much more attracted to communicating with men like Hugh, Daran, and others (whose screen names I cannot recall-sorry) –
BECAUSE they are respecting us and giving us some empathy – which allows to give them empathy and which allow us to better understand each other, connect with each other and truly enjoy the interaction.
I know that those men who communicate with us provide a welcome respite from the cyber-negging of some other men who blog to us – who we find exhausting and sometimes don’t even bother to respond to b/c it’s a waste of energy, frustrating and not enjoyable at all.
Granted this is different than physical interactions so it may mean nothing to readers – but I find it significant.
And though there is disagreement, the fact that it’s being handled with respect does create a form of attraction in that I know we look forward to these opportunities to communicate about this topic with men who can discuss this like this.
I can’t speak for LR, but I would love it if my whole blog was like this.
And maybe there are things I need to change about my blog to creat that. I’m open to that possibility.
But my point is that alot of the game behavior that we disapprove of (and you seem to also) does show up in these discussions and I think all of us women here find it completely unappealing.
And just to be clear i’m speaking purely on a human conversation level – not on a romantic level – but that the phenomenon of “attraction” whether it’s on the job or in discussons or in friendship or relationships – I just dont understand the cat and mouse games at all.
Denise
Denise said:
Sure. Here are the links to my informal lit reviews of women’s preferences:
Research on Female Preferences in Men (big post summarizing the research)
How True are Stereotypes About What Women Want? (synthesis of research)
Are Women Attracted to Masculinity in Men? (more synthesis)
Do Women Know What They Want?
I would be very interested to hear what you think this body of research shows, and how it matches (a) the conventional wisdom on women’s preferences, and (b) the PUA view of women’s preferences. And of course, the research is not the definitive word on women’s preferences, because the current literature uses a lot of verbal checklists, and not enough behavioral and naturalistic measures are used, which limits its generalizability to real life.
(There are a couples studies that I’m found since writing these post that need to be added. One found that females preferred status in men that was produced by prestige over status in men that was produced by dominance. The other found that females weren’t so much into dominant behavior aimed at themselves, but they were into men who displayed dominant behavior towards other people.)
The mismatch between women’s stated preferences and behavior is mainly discussed in the post “Do Women Know What They Want?” But this entire series does relate to it, because it’s been found that women tend to say that they go for sensitive, empathetic men.
Here are a couple quotes from studies in my review that relate to the mismatch:
researchers Urbaniak and Kilmann:
Of course, PUAs know about virtually none of these studies.
I’ll try to give this question a proper answer, but here is the short answer.
How well PUAs’ perceptions match up the current empirical research:
- PUAs are correct that there is a mismatch between women’s statements of their preferences, and their actual choices
- PUAs correctly perceive that women have preferences for certain masculine qualities (e.g. extraversion and dominance), but they overestimate the extent of those preferences
- Some research shows a large role for Agreeableness, altruism, and other prosocial behavior in women’s preferences, which is lacking from the PUA account. Nevertheless, some PUA techniques actually display Agreeableness (see the “rapport phase” for instance, and the “Funny” part of “Cocky/Funny”), even though PUAs don’t explicitly acknowledge a female preference for Agreeableness
I can think of two main possibilities for the difference between PUA views and the research:
1. The research is right, and PUAs are overemphasizing stereotypically masculine traits and under-emphasizing stereotypical feminine traits (e.g. Agreeableness, empathy). PUAs hold their view because of various forms of observer bias, and hasty generalization from a limited sample (e.g. the average female extravert that goes to clubs).
2. PUAs are right, and the research is over-estimating female preferences for feminine/prosocial/empathetic/agreeable behavior because it is using methodology (women’s own accounts, checklists, verbal scripts with descriptions of guys) that don’t generalize to real life.
Either of these views, or any balance between them, is plausible to me.
Anecdotally, the PUA view of women’s preferences seems mostly right when describing particular types of women: gender-typical extraverts. The farther away you get from that type of woman, the less that the PUA view applies. It seems that practically all straight women are attracted to masculinity in men, but the form of that masculinity varies between women depending on their personality and subculture.
I am willing to believe that 80%-90% of the PUA view of women applies to the modal feminine female extravert. These types of women are the most common. Since PUAs run into them the most, their preferences have an inordinate effect on PUA theories. (Furthermore, the average woman is of average female IQ. I think some of the negative attitudes towards women in the community is because the community selects for nerdy men with freakish IQs, who naturally find the average female extravert to be a flighty, emotional creature who is seemingly bereft of reason. This is analogous to high IQ women who compare themselves to average IQ men, and conclude that men are brutes. Since intelligent people are l